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    auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    The latest issue of german car magazine auto, motor und sport has a comparison test with various tuned 997 Turbo in it. Judging by the achieved test figures, I have to say that this is exactly what I expected. Huge disappointment and not worth risking the warranty, not to speak about the huge cost.

    Just for comparison:

    997 Turbo Stock
    0-200 kph in 12.3 sec.
    0-250 kph in 20.7 sec.

    997 Turbo 9ff (535 HP)
    0-200 kph in 11.2 sec.
    0-250 kph in 18.4 sec.

    997 Turbo Gemballa (550 HP)
    0-200 kph in 11.6 sec.
    0-250 kph in 19,8 sec.

    997 Turbo Speedart (530 HP)
    0-200 kph in 11.8 sec.
    0-250 kph in 20.2 sec.

    997 Turbo Techart (580 HP, modified or no VTG?)
    0-200 kph in 11.7 sec.
    0-250 kph in 19.8 sec.

    997 Turbo Wendland (530 HP)
    0-200 kph in 11.7 sec.
    0-250 kph in 19.8 sec.

    With the exception of the Techart and maybe Gemballa, all cars had actually only a modified exhaust system (incl. cats) and a different motronic programming.

    It is well known that the standard turbo chargers aren't good for more than 1.2-1.3 bar, so more than 550 HP without heavy engine/turbo chargers mods isn't possible right now.
    It is also very interesting that ams says that all cars lost the advantage of the VTG technology after the mods, mostly the almost missing turbo "hole".

    This test confirms our recommendation from the past: WAIT with engine mods, Tuners still have to get more experience with them. Unless you want to be the guinea pig for a lot of money and without any substantial results.

    Porsche actually did a very clever job by introducing the VTG technology, they made life much more difficult for Tuners to gain extreme power at "low" cost.
    We predicted it before but apparently nobody believed us.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see the same disappointing results from modded suspension setups, the first numbers from the test (outside temperature was 6*C btw, to the advantage of the engine of the tuned Turbos...stock Turbo has been tested at 25*C) already give a short glimpse in that direction.

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    I wonder why Porsche made it so hard on tuners! Oh well, they do have to sell X50s right?:)

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    bostonmini said:
    I wonder why Porsche made it so hard on tuners! Oh well, they do have to sell X50s right?:)



    Main reason is: WARRANTY. It was pretty difficult for them in the past to find those who modded their engines because some dealers actually installed them or at least supported the customer having them tuned. Porsche can't send a factory rep because of each and every engine/gearbox/drivetrain problem. Bottom line: it makes it easier for Porsche NOT to have to deal with tuning problems.

    Of course the powerkit is a reason too but judging by the current rumours, I'd say that the powerkit will be mainly a different exhaust, different gearbox ratio (incl. longer last gear), different intercoolers and a modded engine software mapping with permanent overboost.

    I expect to see a 1 second acceleration improvement from 0-200 kph, still better than what most Tuners delivered out there in the ams review.

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    9ff is quite a bit faster than stock Turbo.
    Techart numbers are pathetic for a 580 claimed hp car.

    J.Seven

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    J.Seven said:
    9ff is quite a bit faster than stock Turbo.
    Techart numbers are pathetic for a 580 claimed hp car.

    J.Seven



    Yes, Techart is slow. The 9ff seems to be awfully fast, though. 18,4 seconds is as fast as the SLR did it in the recent SA Supercar Test.
    Safe to say that the 9ff does 0-300 km/h in 35 seconds?

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    The 9ff car is actually the only one which offers an acceptable performance increase but to be honest, I doubt that this setup would work for a long time, I also doubt the 535 HP claim. Of course I have no proof for my suspicion but 9ff is an expert of preparing "record time achieving" cars, so maybe, MAYBE, this wouldn't be exactly the package the customer gets when he orders is. Assuming that all are streetlegal of course...which I'm still not sure of.

    The only thing 9ff surely did better than the others: the exhaust system. All tuned exhaust systems seem to have a too "low" sound, 9ff apparently uses a flap system exhaust which produces that "classic" high pitch 911 sound everybody is dreaming of, best example is the 997 PSE.

    I also have to add that unfortunately the Cargraphic/RS-Tuning exhaust also sounds "low" under 3000 rpm, not very satisfying. Cargraphic claims that it will improve after a couple of thousands of km and I hope they're right. Right now, the exhaust works flawlessly (no engine warning light, no backfiring, no serious issues, just a few interior noises due to the increased low frequency tone) but the sound isn't even close to what I expected. Loud isn't everything. This doesn't surprise me at all, most Tuners, incl. the "good" ones, never really succeeded to create the sound of the PSE.

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    I was able to attend a testdrive of a tuned 997 Turbo with claimed 550 HP (as far as I remember). I'm not allowed to talk about details or to name the Tuner but I saw the test results with my own eyes and this car did 10.8 sec from 0-200 kph and aprox. 32 seconds (don't remember the precise figure) from 0-300 kph. The car was heavily modded, different exhaust incl. cats, different exhaust manifolds, different airfilter casing, different intercoolers, etc.

    This was just a preliminary test to see how performance is and if something goes wrong (apparently everything was fine). I don't have a clue if this kit would be streetlegal and I also don't know if the claimed 550 HP is true (I saw an engine dyno diagramme but I can't be sure it was from this car) but it was damn fast.

    Make no mistake though: even with the best tuning setup, I doubt that a tuned 997 Turbo would be achieve better numbers than the one I mentioned above. Unless somebody really wants to modify the whole engine, throw away the VTG chargers, etc.

    My hope lies with the upcoming 997 GT2 and Turbo powerkit.
    The parts are usually available and it shouldn't be difficult to get them, even without buying the whole kit.
    I also have hopes that there will be bigger VTG chargers available from BorgWarner, so Tuners can finally offer some real punch...of course for big money. Don't expect to see a cheap ECU tuning with fantastic results.

    Which brings me back to ECU tuning only, without even exchanging the exhaust: DON'T DO IT, you make a fool out of yourself.

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    RC said:
    I was able to attend a testdrive of a tuned 997 Turbo with claimed 550 HP (as far as I remember). I'm not allowed to talk about details or to name the Tuner but I saw the test results with my own eyes and this car did 10.8 sec from 0-200 kph and aprox. 32 seconds (don't remember the precise figure) from 0-300 kph. The car was heavily modded, different exhaust incl. cats, different exhaust manifolds, different airfilter casing, different intercoolers, etc.

    This was just a preliminary test to see how performance is and if something goes wrong (apparently everything was fine). I don't have a clue if this kit would be streetlegal and I also don't know if the claimed 550 HP is true (I saw an engine dyno diagramme but I can't be sure it was from this car) but it was damn fast.

    Make no mistake though: even with the best tuning setup, I doubt that a tuned 997 Turbo would be achieve better numbers than the one I mentioned above. Unless somebody really wants to modify the whole engine, throw away the VTG chargers, etc.

    My hope lies with the upcoming 997 GT2 and Turbo powerkit.
    The parts are usually available and it shouldn't be difficult to get them, even without buying the whole kit.
    I also have hopes that there will be bigger VTG chargers available from BorgWarner, so Tuners can finally offer some real punch...of course for big money. Don't expect to see a cheap ECU tuning with fantastic results.

    Which brings me back to ECU tuning only, without even exchanging the exhaust: DON'T DO IT, you make a fool out of yourself.



    So, 150.000 Euro for the car, 30.000 Euro for the modifications and no warranty. Ouch ! And the 599 will still be faster than it.

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    Even over here in Germany, with no speed limit, I seldom meet somebody who is faster than me...in the Cayenne Turbo. Meaning: the 997 Turbo stock car is actually more than satisfying regarding power and performance. Any desire for more than stock is actually more of a male pride thing I guess because you don't gain any real advantage from it, not for street driving and not for track driving.

    Yes, I'm looking for more power too, no doubt about it. On the other hand, before I ordered the 997 Turbo, I knew exactly what I'm getting: a perfect daily driver which also is a lot of fun. If I would have wanted a sunny weather weekend fun car only, I would have gone for the 997 GT3 RS instead, not to mention that it looks much more spectacular than the 997 Turbo.

    People always want more, more power, more money, bigger b..bs for the wife, bigger ... well, you get my point. The question is: what for? Fun? You can have fun in a 415 HP 997 GT3, you don't need a 700 HP monster to have fun in it. I don't say don't do it, everybody can do whatever he wants with his own money. I just say...WAIT. Apparently Tuners still have some issues with the new VTG technology but I'm also pretty sure that by next summer or so, these issues will be a thing of the past.

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turb

    http://rapidshare.com/files/4388731/hqn51hxapv4s.zip

    here is the videoclip

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    I was thinking about just doing the exhaust and nothing else, what do you think of that plan RC?

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Even over here in Germany, with no speed limit, I seldom meet somebody who is faster than me...in the Cayenne Turbo. Meaning: the 997 Turbo stock car is actually more than satisfying regarding power and performance. Any desire for more than stock is actually more of a male pride thing I guess because you don't gain any real advantage from it, not for street driving and not for track driving.

    Yes, I'm looking for more power too, no doubt about it. On the other hand, before I ordered the 997 Turbo, I knew exactly what I'm getting: a perfect daily driver which also is a lot of fun. If I would have wanted a sunny weather weekend fun car only, I would have gone for the 997 GT3 RS instead, not to mention that it looks much more spectacular than the 997 Turbo.

    People always want more, more power, more money, bigger b..bs for the wife, bigger ... well, you get my point. The question is: what for? Fun? You can have fun in a 415 HP 997 GT3, you don't need a 700 HP monster to have fun in it. I don't say don't do it, everybody can do whatever he wants with his own money. I just say...WAIT. Apparently Tuners still have some issues with the new VTG technology but I'm also pretty sure that by next summer or so, these issues will be a thing of the past.



    Very well said! I agree, power is an ego thing. Personally, I'd probably be perfectly content with the old Turbo power level, but when there are faster cars around, the ego doesn't sleep .

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    RC said:
    The 9ff car is actually the only one which offers an acceptable performance increase but to be honest, I doubt that this setup would work for a long time, I also doubt the 535 HP claim. Of course I have no proof for my suspicion but 9ff is an expert of preparing "record time achieving" cars, so maybe, MAYBE, this wouldn't be exactly the package the customer gets when he orders is. Assuming that all are streetlegal of course...which I'm still not sure of.




    That's exactly what I though. All the other cars producing +/- 530hp are making slower times than 9ff car, so a modification on the ECU just for this test might give much more power than the claimed 530Hp. I also don't have any proof of what I'm saying, it's just my thoughts by looking at the numbers.

    J.Seven

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    RC said:
    The parts are usually available and it shouldn't be difficult to get them, even without buying the whole kit.
    I also have hopes that there will be bigger VTG chargers available from BorgWarner, so Tuners can finally offer some real punch...of course for big money. Don't expect to see a cheap ECU tuning with fantastic results.





    RC,if the parts that distinguish a standard turbo from a GT2 are easily obtained why doesn't porsche provide for a retrofit of a standard turbo to GT2 specs(or power kit). Is the difference something a dealer should be able to upgrade were they allowed or is it more complicated than that? Thanks for the reply.

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    C4S Surgeon said:
    I was thinking about just doing the exhaust and nothing else, what do you think of that plan RC?



    It always starts with the exhaust...

    You should listen to the sound first before making a decision. I installed the Cargraphic/RS-Tuning exhaust and although the exhaust works flawlessly (no engine warning light coming on, no other problems, only a couple of interior noises "triggered" by the low tone of the sound at lower rev figures), I'm still not very satisfied.

    Apparently all aftermarket exhaust manufacturers have a similar problem, especially with streetlegal exhaust systems with 200 cell or 300 cell catalytic converters.
    You should be careful that 100 cell cats only work OBD2 compliant with a modded motronic software.

    Bottom line is: I'm a little bit disappointed. I heard five different exhausts for the 997 Turbo til now and all of them sound similar, none of them has the high pitch sound in the lower rev range like the 997 PSE for example. Only non-streetlegal 100 cell cats exhausts (heard two) have a touch of that sound but this doesn't help me much since they're not streetlegal over here in Germany.

    Cargraphic claims that the exhaust needs a couple of thousands kms to "burn free" but the low tone in the lower rev range (under 3000 rpm) will not completely go away and unfortunately this is exactly the rev range people are usually driving in the city for example.

    I hate to say this but unless you're looking for a louder sound NOW, you probably should wait to see what Porsche is coming up with. IF.

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turb

    RC,

    listen to this one:

    http://www.awe-tuning.com/media/multimedia/AWE_997TT_exhaust.wmv

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    RC said:
    I was able to attend a testdrive of a tuned 997 Turbo with claimed 550 HP (as far as I remember). I'm not allowed to talk about details or to name the Tuner but I saw the test results with my own eyes and this car did 10.8 sec from 0-200 kph and aprox. 32 seconds (don't remember the precise figure) from 0-300 kph. The car was heavily modded, different exhaust incl. cats, different exhaust manifolds, different airfilter casing, different intercoolers, etc.





    Manthey


    Porsche makes thousands and thousands of kilometers in different regions of the planet to test their cars in order to give the reliability we are use to get from them (and even with that the 986/996 engines blew like hotckakes )
    These tuners make some high speed running in the night from Munich to Hannover and come back at near full speed and reliability test is done. Ok, it might no be exactly like that but you get the point. I've already talked to some of them, and they would take the car for a weekend and make an almost non-stop trip thrue the best highways in Germany to see how the mechanics would handle.
    First kits sold to first clients will be their real reliability test, that's why it's better to waite few more months to get a proper and tested kit from any tuner.

    J.Seven

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turb

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    RC,

    listen to this one:

    http://www.awe-tuning.com/media/multimedia/AWE_997TT_exhaust.wmv



    It is always difficult to tell the true sound by a sound/video file. Anyway: this exhaust sounds very similar to the Cargraphic exhaust. Unfortunately. Deep growl in the lower rev range with a higher pitch tone in the mid and upper rev range. The deep growl isn't too 911 like and it is too deep in my opinion.

    Apparently there is a real issue with getting the sound right on the 997 Turbo, all exhaust systems I listened to so far sound almost the same: deep growl/tone under 3000 rpm and after that a higher pitch sound but still not what I want. I love the 997 PSE sound, in my opinion this sound is perfect. Apparently it is much harder to get such a sound from a turbo charged engine without messing up with backpressure and/or losing power.

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turb

    RC=just get a loud stereo and play a gallardo sountrack:) that car sounds great when done right...

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    C4S Surgeon said:
    I was thinking about just doing the exhaust and nothing else, what do you think of that plan RC?



    It always starts with the exhaust...

    You should listen to the sound first before making a decision. I installed the Cargraphic/RS-Tuning exhaust and although the exhaust works flawlessly (no engine warning light coming on, no other problems, only a couple of interior noises "triggered" by the low tone of the sound at lower rev figures), I'm still not very satisfied.

    Apparently all aftermarket exhaust manufacturers have a similar problem, especially with streetlegal exhaust systems with 200 cell or 300 cell catalytic converters.
    You should be careful that 100 cell cats only work OBD2 compliant with a modded motronic software.

    Bottom line is: I'm a little bit disappointed. I heard five different exhausts for the 997 Turbo til now and all of them sound similar, none of them has the high pitch sound in the lower rev range like the 997 PSE for example. Only non-streetlegal 100 cell cats exhausts (heard two) have a touch of that sound but this doesn't help me much since they're not streetlegal over here in Germany.

    Cargraphic claims that the exhaust needs a couple of thousands kms to "burn free" but the low tone in the lower rev range (under 3000 rpm) will not completely go away and unfortunately this is exactly the rev range people are usually driving in the city for example.

    I hate to say this but unless you're looking for a louder sound NOW, you probably should wait to see what Porsche is coming up with. IF.



    RC, thanks for your honest opinion on Cargraphic, I was afraid it would be the case of too low pitch sound at low/mid revs. Do you have any info on the FVD exhaust?, someone on another board mentioned that it was the loudest and best sounding so far. Thanks again.

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    RC said:
    I installed the Cargraphic/RS-Tuning exhaust and although the exhaust works flawlessly (no engine warning light coming on, no other problems, only a couple of interior noises "triggered" by the low tone of the sound at lower rev figures), I'm still not very satisfied.





    Which version of cargraphic exhaust did you buy RC?!

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    I bought the TÜV Sound version, there are three versions available in Germany:
    TÜV
    TÜV Sound
    Export

    I didn't say the exhaust isn't loud, it is. It isn't (yet) what I expected it to be (sound only). The deep growl also creates some vibrations inside the car, resulting in noises from the interior which haven't been there before.

    Trust me guys, unless you're going for a non street-legal exhaust, mostly with 100 cell cats, there is no way in getting a better sound right now. 9ff is working with a flap system for example which may give better results regarding sound but I'm still not sold since I watched the video from AMS TV and to be honest: if this car has only 535 HP and if this car is really streetlegal...I somehow doubt it. The exhaust sound is still not perfect.

    FVD? You must be kidding. FVD is in my opinion more an address for older cars and they're actually selling parts, they're not a real Tuner. Cargraphic isn't much different but at least I know that RS-Tuning had the exhaust on their engine dyno.

    Right now, like I said before, I would wait. I'm still hoping for some better sound but maybe I expect too much from a Turbo charged engine.

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    RC said:
    I bought the TÜV Sound version, there are three versions available in Germany:
    TÜV
    TÜV Sound
    Export

    I didn't say the exhaust isn't loud, it is. It isn't (yet) what I expected it to be (sound only). The deep growl also creates some vibrations inside the car, resulting in noises from the interior which haven't been there before.

    Trust me guys, unless you're going for a non street-legal exhaust, mostly with 100 cell cats, there is no way in getting a better sound right now. 9ff is working with a flap system for example which may give better results regarding sound but I'm still not sold since I watched the video from AMS TV and to be honest: if this car has only 535 HP and if this car is really streetlegal...I somehow doubt it. The exhaust sound is still not perfect.

    FVD? You must be kidding. FVD is in my opinion more an address for older cars and they're actually selling parts, they're not a real Tuner. Cargraphic isn't much different but at least I know that RS-Tuning had the exhaust on their engine dyno.

    Right now, like I said before, I would wait. I'm still hoping for some better sound but maybe I expect too much from a Turbo charged engine.


    RC did you have a chance o listen to the sportec exhaust which also has flaps or in general their 997tt kits?
    Their claims are obviously very different to what you describe (exhaust+ ECU+ stock VTG chargers with reworked housings etc = a lot of power) and I am trying to go test drive their at some point soon.

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    Any ETA on Porsche releasing their sports exhaust for the TT?

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    RC said:
    I bought the TÜV Sound version, there are three versions available in Germany:
    TÜV
    TÜV Sound
    Export

    I didn't say the exhaust isn't loud, it is. It isn't (yet) what I expected it to be (sound only). The deep growl also creates some vibrations inside the car, resulting in noises from the interior which haven't been there before.

    Trust me guys, unless you're going for a non street-legal exhaust, mostly with 100 cell cats, there is no way in getting a better sound right now. 9ff is working with a flap system for example which may give better results regarding sound but I'm still not sold since I watched the video from AMS TV and to be honest: if this car has only 535 HP and if this car is really streetlegal...I somehow doubt it. The exhaust sound is still not perfect.

    FVD? You must be kidding. FVD is in my opinion more an address for older cars and they're actually selling parts, they're not a real Tuner. Cargraphic isn't much different but at least I know that RS-Tuning had the exhaust on their engine dyno.

    Right now, like I said before, I would wait. I'm still hoping for some better sound but maybe I expect too much from a Turbo charged engine.


    Do you think the export version sounds better down low? the cargraphic dealer here in socal told me he is selling 90% export and very little sound version. what is your opinion on the export? Thanks.

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    RC said:
    The latest issue of german car magazine auto, motor und sport has a comparison test with various tuned 997 Turbo in it. Judging by the achieved test figures, I have to say that this is exactly what I expected. Huge disappointment and not worth risking the warranty, not to speak about the huge cost.




    Absolutely right

    Spending 10k Euro, voiding the Porsche warranty and gaining 1s up to 250kph does not sound like a good deal

    P.S.: On the other hand, the 9ff test car (I use the term "test car" in order to highlight that I do not expect 9ff customer cars to show the same performance...) delivers pretty much what I would expect for the 997TTx50 (whenever it should be available by the end of this decade ).

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    J.Seven said:
    9ff is quite a bit faster than stock Turbo.
    Techart numbers are pathetic for a 580 claimed hp car.

    J.Seven



    Yes, Techart is slow. The 9ff seems to be awfully fast, though. 18,4 seconds is as fast as the SLR did it in the recent SA Supercar Test.
    Safe to say that the 9ff does 0-300 km/h in 35 seconds?



    I would never buy a car from 9ff.

    Just one example: my old 996TTx50 with 450hp was faster than a 490hp 9ff 996TT... Very interesting, isn't it

    Re: auto, motor und sport reviews a couple of tuned 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    J.Seven said:
    9ff is quite a bit faster than stock Turbo.
    Techart numbers are pathetic for a 580 claimed hp car.

    J.Seven



    Yes, Techart is slow. The 9ff seems to be awfully fast, though. 18,4 seconds is as fast as the SLR did it in the recent SA Supercar Test.
    Safe to say that the 9ff does 0-300 km/h in 35 seconds?



    I would never buy a car from 9ff.

    Just one example: my old 996TTx50 with 450hp was faster than a 490hp 9ff 996TT... Very interesting, isn't it



    Yes, I have heard all kinds of horror stories about 9ff. The best one was when a customer bought one of their higher-end packages (580 bhp I believe) and the car turned out slower than stock .

     
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