Crown

BjoernB:

lease-deals are a bit different for a GT2RS etc

on a serious note - you buy a exotic for a different reason than you buy a Porsche - after having been with the Ferrari Club at the mille miglia they buy a brand to Show their success or ego - only very few buy for pure driving pleasure

like this guy with 66k km.        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgR9f1pafo0

Yep, there are drivers who really love their cars...for driving. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Christian, you're about 10 years behind me regarding cars. If you recall, I bashed Porsche relentlessly while driving my Ferrari's. I said Porsche were ugly, uninspiring in styling and sound like crap. 

But after several Ferrari's, I began to change my mind about Porsche. While it is true that Ferrari, McLaren Lambo's get more attention because of their styling, Porsche generates reverence from the driving public because of its dominance in the sport car segment. Most have coveted a Porsche since they were kids and many still keep posters of the iconic brand. It's racing success and heritage attracts a multitude of people each recognizing it for what it is, German engineering at its finest. 

The Porsche GT cars are in demand for a reason. Those that know cars prefer Porsche GT cars to drive them while those that have a lot of money and drive their cars infrequently tend to buy the supercars like Ferrari, McLaren and Lambo's.

AS for your Audi, I am sure it's a nice car but it really is an orphan in the sport car market. It doesn't fit anywhere. Its viability is in doubt.

--

"A man wrapped up in himself makes for a very small bundle."

Porsche GT cars are in demand because it's been fashionable to be a "driver's" car, especially with a manual transmission. You couldn't give away the old GT cars and now all of a sudden people want 6-figures for a beat up 997 GT3.

It's a market full of speculators and the journalist get hard-ons everytime they write the same yearly article about a Porsche.

Porsche makes great cars, no one denies it, but let's not pretend GT cars are in a league of their own. When push comes to shove, we all know what keys people reach for if money is no object. Drop the price of an Ferrari or Lamborghini to $150K and let me know how Porsche GT3 sales do...

I really wouldn't discount McLaren as not for drivers.  In some ways they are tuned and feel more driver focused than even a Porsche GT car.  Unfortunately reliability may not yet be at the Porsche level. 

The demand for current Porsche GT cars also have a lot to do with their more widespread appeal. Now anyone can buy a GT3 due to PDK and the far more civilized road manners compared to prior models. This opened the market to a ton of people that never previously wanted a GT3.  Just look at Rennlist these days.  Half of the threads are about second hand value and various leather options.  This is in stark contrast to the days where primary issues were discussing driving and track days.  

noone1:

Porsche makes great cars, no one denies it, but let's not pretend GT cars are in a league of their own. When push comes to shove, we all know what keys people reach for if money is no object. Drop the price of an Ferrari or Lamborghini to $150K and let me know how Porsche GT3 sales do...

there are tons of Ferrari 430 or Lambo Gallardo in your quoted $150K price range, I don't see how they affect the sales or status of 997GT cars.   Get over it, Porsche GT cars ARE in a league of their own, and 911s always represent the standard sport cars that other manufacturers are trying to match and beat.

Tim

2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe;  2016 911 GTS Club Coupe;  2015 Macan S
 

Well, you're also comparing low production GT3s to saturated, dime-a-dozen Gallardos. There were 14000 Gallardos...

That's probably more Gallardos than all Porsche GT cars combined...

noone1:

Well, you're also comparing low production GT3s to saturated, dime-a-dozen Gallardos. There were 14000 Gallardos...

That's probably more Gallardos than all Porsche GT cars combined...

Really? I don't know that there were so many Gallardo produced...

Having said that, given the same price, I will buy a GT car anytime.

BTW, happy about your 12C, just surprise that you can get by with just one car and it is an exotic car.

Tim

2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe;  2016 911 GTS Club Coupe;  2015 Macan S
 

Can't speak for noone, but a great thing about living in a busy urban environment is that driving becomes something done purely for pleasure.  Commuting is done predominantly by walking and Uber. 

Having a 12C as the only car seems like problem at all unless you have kids. Girlfriend might expose the color of her underwear getting in/out, but some here might not view that as a problem. 

noone1:

Porsche GT cars are in demand because it's been fashionable to be a "driver's" car, especially with a manual transmission. You couldn't give away the old GT cars and now all of a sudden people want 6-figures for a beat up 997 GT3.

It's a market full of speculators and the journalist get hard-ons everytime they write the same yearly article about a Porsche.

Porsche makes great cars, no one denies it, but let's not pretend GT cars are in a league of their own. When push comes to shove, we all know what keys people reach for if money is no object. Drop the price of an Ferrari or Lamborghini to $150K and let me know how Porsche GT3 sales do...

To this very day a Porsche has a very distinct look & feel. When you drive a 911 it feels very different on the road than nearly any other current sports cars (the 488 now comes closest to this in terms of perfection, I feel). Plus it is a perfect mix between this emotional kick and the perfect daily driver, even as a GT model. No wonder people love Porsche 

vantagesc:

I really wouldn't discount McLaren as not for drivers.  In some ways they are tuned and feel more driver focused than even a Porsche GT car.  Unfortunately reliability may not yet be at the Porsche level. 

The demand for current Porsche GT cars also have a lot to do with their more widespread appeal. Now anyone can buy a GT3 due to PDK and the far more civilized road manners compared to prior models. This opened the market to a ton of people that never previously wanted a GT3.  Just look at Rennlist these days.  Half of the threads are about second hand value and various leather options.  This is in stark contrast to the days where primary issues were discussing driving and track days.  

noone1:

Porsche makes great cars, no one denies it, but let's not pretend GT cars are in a league of their own. When push comes to shove, we all know what keys people reach for if money is no object. Drop the price of an Ferrari or Lamborghini to $150K and let me know how Porsche GT3 sales do...

they are - it's called a NA engine - and yes you can get loads of Ferraris and Lambos for 150k here in Europe with low milage - for a reason

However, I loved the 12c - had a black one once and enjoyed it a LOT 

nberry:

Christian, you're about 10 years behind me regarding cars. If you recall, I bashed Porsche relentlessly while driving my Ferrari's. I said Porsche were ugly, uninspiring in styling and sound like crap. 

Nick, you got yourself a Ferrari 360 (as far as I remember), not exactly an alternative for a 911 Turbo at that time. 

But after several Ferrari's, I began to change my mind about Porsche. While it is true that Ferrari, McLaren Lambo's get more attention because of their styling, Porsche generates reverence from the driving public because of its dominance in the sport car segment. Most have coveted a Porsche since they were kids and many still keep posters of the iconic brand. It's racing success and heritage attracts a multitude of people each recognizing it for what it is, German engineering at its finest. 

Get the 488 GTB and you'll never think about the 911 anymore...like ever. CR made the switch to the 458 Spider and while I outran him in my 991.1 Turbo S, he couldn't care less because the drive feel, sound and interior compensated for everything else.

The Porsche GT cars are in demand for a reason. Those that know cars prefer Porsche GT cars to drive them while those that have a lot of money and drive their cars infrequently tend to buy the supercars like Ferrari, McLaren and Lambo's.

They are in demand because they have no competitors in this price range. The R8 is still 220k with full options, even if there are some good offers out there if you are willing to get a slightly used dealer car. Put the right tires on this baby and you stand no chance against it on the track, even in a GT3 RS. Just ask those who are on the track on a regular basis. Of course the GT3 RS probably wins in the rounds game, the heavier R8 will finish off it's tires after a couple of rounds but thats not the point. Most GT owners I know seldom track their car and/or just do some harmless track or club events. For that purpose, even a GTS would suffice but a GT car is definitely cooler (and probably more fun as well).

AS for your Audi, I am sure it's a nice car but it really is an orphan in the sport car market. It doesn't fit anywhere. Its viability is in doubt.

It doesn't fit because many potential customers don't have a clue about this car and what it really is. Also, Audi does a terrible marketing job, the worst I ever saw for such a car. Actually, they don't do any marketing for it. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Christian, to set the record straight, I owned two three 360's and two 430's both coupe and Spider's. I also owned a 997 turbo cab.

Btw, US .2GT3's will not leave Germany until sometime in September. The delay is related to emissions issues or so it is speculated. I posted this a couple of weeks ago.

"A man wrapped up in himself makes for a very small bundle."

nberry:

Christian, to set the record straight, I owned two three 360's and two 430's both coupe and Spider's. I also owned a 997 turbo cab.

Btw, US .2GT3's will not leave Germany until sometime in September. The delay is related to emissions issues or so it is speculated. I posted this a couple of weeks ago.

Some German GT3 deliveries have been delayed until July as well, so maybe not only related to US emissions issues.

Not even the 430 was at the quality level of the new R8, even the Huracan or a Ferrari 488, so I think you are a bit too enthusiastic about Porsche. 

So far, I think that the new Panamera set a new quality standard with Porsche but the 911, incl. the 991.2 GT3? Not much different from my 991.1 GTS and I can't even look at the interior anymore, it is so outdated. The 992 gets an awesome new interior, finally...

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

 

So far, I think that the new Panamera set a new quality standard with Porsche but the 911, incl. the 991.2 GT3? Not much different from my 991.1 GTS and I can't even look at the interior anymore, it is so outdated. The 992 gets an awesome new interior, finally...

I like the interior much more than in most other sports cars...  Also, the usability of the interior is far superior to any other sports car I know 

For half the people shopping in that segment the 911 GTx are totally irrelevant because they are not offered in convertible...

The other half drives the GT3 for free as first buyers (in the USA)... well until Porsche really cranks up the numbers... and the car costs much less than other exotics new and a small fraction buys it because you can use it on a track occasionally. Like RC said, raise the price by $50k and watch the demand fall significantly.

SciFrog:

For half the people shopping in that segment the 911 GTx are totally irrelevant because they are not offered in convertible...

 

That is true indeed - a big advantage of the 488 and also 720s 

Saw the 720S in the flesh today, when I saw the original pics I questioned the front, from side or rear it always looked good.

The car design is epic and is such a fresh take on where Mclaren is going !!! Stunning 

+1

Not exactly scientific, but here is a 3rd gear roll between a 720S and a 650S.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BV1N_D7BvWt/

Incredible!

The key question for me is if the 720S is also emotional when driving and not only 'fast and clinical'. Speed/accelerations are not the unique factor generating driving pleasure and N/A engines such as Porsche GT3 (RS) or Lamborghini V10 are so nice!

--

991 GT3 RS / Gone: Cayman GT4, 997.2 GT3 RS 3.8, 997.2 GT3, Lotus Exige S, 964 Turbo 3.3

I can't imagine it's any more exciting than a 570 or 650S.

noone1:

I can't imagine it's any more exciting than a 570 or 650S.

Hopefully it will be more refined and precise (in normal mode, in particular). I am very excited to test the 720s soon  The car looks very nice in the flesh - a bit larger than expected though.

Markus,

Drove recently again 991.2 Turbo S and was impressed as much as possible. Do you have Plus steering wheel?

KresoF1:

Markus,

Drove recently again 991.2 Turbo S and was impressed as much as possible. Do you have Plus steering wheel?

No, just the normal steering system (you mean the power steering, right) 

The car is wonderful - a pleasure to drive it everytime. I can also recommend the convertible 

Saw my first 720 yesterday - it is beyond anything Ferrari makes today looks wise. I may have to talk to the wife about getting one next year....... 

Tesla Model S P100D & Model X P90D & 2016 BMW i8 & 2014 991 TTS Cab - Sept 991.2 GT3 ordered. 2017 Porsche Mission E on order

tested the 720 last week, and compared to already super fast 650:

1)720S is a bit faster.

2) gunning into corner speed; similar, if only slightly better perhaps, but tires are not better, need to replace it with cup2 or corsa

3) more confortable and soft on the soft mode

4) a lot stiffer on the track mode; are not able to try this mode with twisties, so dont' know if its better.

5) sound is still the same, if better only slightly better, but still a turbo charged muted sound.  

overall, a more livable car, taking on the task of GT, but still a super series.  I must say a package better than 911 can offer without the two seats which I never use at the back.   if they could only have the 911 GT3RS sound, it would just be THE PERFECT car for me.

For a current 650S owner to change, with big depreciation, if we only looking at the improved figures, doesn't convinced me, but the exterior look is the KEY to wave off the thought of depreciation....  the only selling point to me for this car is really the look and the new interior.   so for those who wanted to buy 720, I would suggest 650S if you don't mind the old look of the car....

Interesting numbers rom McLaren's sales figures.

$843.6mil in sales for 2016, $11.9mil in profit, moving 3286 cars.

That means an avg selling price per car at just under $257k and profit per car at just over $3600.

huangester:

tested the 720 last week, and compared to already super fast 650:

1)720S is a bit faster.

2) gunning into corner speed; similar, if only slightly better perhaps, but tires are not better, need to replace it with cup2 or corsa

3) more confortable and soft on the soft mode

4) a lot stiffer on the track mode; are not able to try this mode with twisties, so dont' know if its better.

5) sound is still the same, if better only slightly better, but still a turbo charged muted sound.  

overall, a more livable car, taking on the task of GT, but still a super series.  I must say a package better than 911 can offer without the two seats which I never use at the back.   if they could only have the 911 GT3RS sound, it would just be THE PERFECT car for me.

For a current 650S owner to change, with big depreciation, if we only looking at the improved figures, doesn't convinced me, but the exterior look is the KEY to wave off the thought of depreciation....  the only selling point to me for this car is really the look and the new interior.   so for those who wanted to buy 720, I would suggest 650S if you don't mind the old look of the car....

Doesn't the 720s feel much more refined than the 650s (automatic mode of the gearbox, precision of suspension in comfort mode, other details)? How did you like the navigation, sound system etc. I will do the test drive in about 2 weeks. I am very excited but hoping for the aforementioned things...