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    The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    First, forgive me posting this here, but the 996 board is deader than Kevin Federline's career, so in order to get some eyes on this, I thought I would post it here.

    The 996 GT3 has been described as tricky and quick to bite if not driven correctly / carefully. Can someone please provide some more descriptive insight into what people mean when they say this? Under what conditions does the car misbehave? What are the ramifications? How to best correct or catch it?

    I am considering a 996 GT3 (instead of a 997 GT3) because they are just SUCH a phenomenal deal compared to the new ones. But I would like a little more info on what people mean when they talk about the handling idiosynchracies of the 996 variant; test driving a car rarely provides an opportunity to try it at the limit, so seeing for myself isn't really a possibility.

    Thanks

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    IMHO, the skinny body specially in the front is not very attractive. The engine is spunky and runs beautifully. Even at the lower RPM's when you punch the GT3 it is very reponsive. The gearing is more than adequate and shifts precisley. The car to me has a bit of over steer, if you punch it without knowing what you are doing in a sharp corner you will lose the control of the car. The car is unforgiving when the driver makes such mistakes. The braking is awsome and I love the sound of the engine. It's the looks, the skinny body and the big wing While many may diagree I think the 997S is a better all around performer thant the 996GT3 and better looking too

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    Well heck yes, the 997 GT3 is a better performer, and is much better looking (IMO). But it is a butt-load more money, too.

    When you say it is unforgiving, what do you mean? Snap-oversteer, like older 911s? What happens, precisely? TIA.

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    If you don't know you should probably be looking at something else

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    Quote:
    adrift said:
    Well heck yes, the 997 GT3 is a better performer, and is much better looking (IMO). But it is a butt-load more money, too.

    I think even the 997S (not 997GT3) runs as good or better than the 996GT3. Unforgiving means the car will not compensate for the drivers mistakes (to a point of course) like the 997S does. Once you start drifting unless you are a skilled driver you are out of control.This is even more noticeable in the GT2 as that car is still a serious contender and perhaps even faster the the 997TT

    When you say it is unforgiving, what do you mean? Snap-oversteer, like older 911s? What happens, precisely? TIA.


    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    Quote:
    ElTonioni said:
    If you don't know you should probably be looking at something else



    That is a silly, needlessly smug response, as there are a myriad of nuances to how a car can be unforgiving. Only a fool would not seek to get some understanding of how a car (mis)behaves before finding out himself when there is the chance of bending metal. Everything I have heard about the 996 GT3 indicates it should be approached cautiously, although the flip-side is that it is wonderfully fun to drive.

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    Quote:
    adrift said:
    Can someone please provide some more descriptive insight into what people mean when they say this? Under what conditions does the car misbehave? What are the ramifications?



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bLYQfLgdjk

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    Looked like it's more of a driver error than the car. I don't think 996GT3 is anymore difficult to drive than a normal 996. Yes, it doesn't have PSM, but it doesn't mean PSM can always save your butt. Just look at how many car (non-996GT3) accidents on the road occur everyday, it's mostly due to driver error. If you learn drive it properly, I'm sure you will have a lot of fun with the car.

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    All "accidents" can be laid at the feet of driver error, in one way or another. I didn't see his back end come around or anything, or any indication of a loss of control. Just looks like he took the corner too fast and drifted into the wall.

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    Quote:
    adrift said:
    All "accidents" can be laid at the feet of driver error, in one way or another. I didn't see his back end come around or anything, or any indication of a loss of control. Just looks like he took the corner too fast and drifted into the wall.



    If all accidents can be laid at the feet of driver error, why do you ask if one automobile versus another "has been described as tricky and quick to bite if not driven correctly / carefully?"

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    Quote:
    adrift said:
    Well heck yes, the 997 GT3 is a better performer, and is much better looking (IMO). But it is a butt-load more money, too.

    When you say it is unforgiving, what do you mean? Snap-oversteer, like older 911s? What happens, precisely? TIA.



    Not so fast in drawing that conclusion. Apparently there is a recent article in Sport auto regarding the 997GT3 including its Ring time. It isn't much faster around the Ring than the 996GT3. The 997GT3 did 7 min.48sec. while the 996 did it in 7min.49. There also was an issue concerning the tires being better on the 997.

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    If all accidents can be laid at the feet of driver error, why do you ask if one automobile versus another "has been described as tricky and quick to bite if not driven correctly / carefully?"



    lol - Why is it so hard just to get straight answers on the internet? Everyone has to pick at you instead of actually trying to answer the question.

    Wouldn't "I don't know" be easier. lol

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    Straight answer:

    It depends.

    The probability of losing control and the tendency for a car to bite or become tricky increases the faster we drive.

    Classifying whether a car is tricky or not is subjective. It depends on the driver's abilities, the car/suspension design/dynamics, road/weather conditions, tires, etc.

    Would you agree that only you can decide if a GT3 is tricky for your driving skill level and how fast you want to drive it under a set of conditions?

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    Nberry,

    that info is wrong.
    It was the 996GT3 cup car that got the 7:49 and NOT the road car. The 996gt3 road car achieved 7:54 and the 997Gt3 achieved 7:48 - 6 seconds faster than the older road car AND 1 second faster than the cup car.

    Get your facts straight.

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    I haven't driven either, but I wouldn't hesitate to get a 996 GT3 if you find a nice one with the right price. You seem to understand that the 996GT3 can be dangerous, and as long as you do and you use good judgement, and, ;et's face it, you're a pretty good driver, you will almost certainly adore it. From everything I've read, it is a tremendous car - as long as it is what you want.

    I'd LOVE to have one as my track car, that's for sure.

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    I am looking at it for double duty - track and street. It will be my daily driver, as a matter of fact, but as I commute 1 mile to work (when I don't ride my bike), that shouldn't be an issue.

    I guess there are two questions here. What are the unique dangers associated with driving the gt3 on the street (eg unsettles on bumpy corners, causing the car/rear to skip, has a tendency to hydroplane using stock tires, etc), and what are the "tricky" behaviors it exhibits at the track when approaching the limit? (eg avoid trail-braking, trailing throttle, need to load up the suspension before turning in, need to get on the gas early (pre-apex), etc???).

    If it is easier, what are tips unique to driving the GT3 smoothly and quickly?

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    Quote:
    RR4 said:
    Nberry,

    that info is wrong.
    It was the 996GT3 cup car that got the 7:49 and NOT the road car. The 996gt3 road car achieved 7:54 and the 997Gt3 achieved 7:48 - 6 seconds faster than the older road car AND 1 second faster than the cup car.

    Get your facts straight.



    The 996GT3 Cup car did the Ring in 7.49? Think again. You better get your facts straight.

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    Here is paste of the link.

    7:48 - 158.463 km/h - Porsche 997 GT3, 415 PS/1440kg (sport auto 07/06) http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?vi...fID=2&tID=91836
    7.49 - 158.124 km/h - Porsche 996 GT3, 392 PS (AutoBild 2004), http://www.autobild.de/tuning/testb...artikel_seite=4
    7:49 - 158.124 km/h - Porsche 996 GT3 Cup, 360 PS/1207 kg (sport auto 02/99)

    and here is the actual link:
    http://wheeltalk.fancal.net/?p=476

    The other 7:49 time is for a NON stock 996GT3 notice the 392HP.

    Any way you cut it a stock 997GT3 is 6 seconds faster than a stock 996GT3 - which by the way is 7 seconds faster than a stock 430.


    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    From what I have read, it depends on your suspension and tire setup:

    unsettles on bumpy corners - Yes
    causing the car/rear to skip - Yes
    has a tendency to hydroplane, etc) - Yes

    Quote:
    adrift said:
    and what are the "tricky" behaviors it exhibits at the track when approaching the limit? (eg avoid trail-braking, trailing throttle, need to load up the suspension before turning in, need to get on the gas early (pre-apex), etc???).



    If the suspension setup is correct for the conditions, smooth inputs yield smooth outputs. If the suspension setup is incorrect and you are driving faster and faster yet are not able to sense and understand what the car is trying to communicate, may heaven help you. If you have not made an effort to take the car to a dry/wet skidpad and gradually explore the limits before going to the track...

    Quote:
    adrift said:
    What are tips unique to driving the GT3 smoothly and quickly?



    Please consider taking the car to a race shop and have them tailor the suspension setup to your driving style and the type of road surface (very bumpy roads may need a Euro aftermarket rally GT3 suspension setup.) Then, you will need plenty of seat time learning slowly how to drive with the chosen suspension setup.

    Since the North American GT3's allegedly have different spring rates from the ROW, please search the Rennlist threads and ask Bob Rouleau, NJ-GT, and other experienced GT3 drivers on Rennlist for GT3-specific driving tips especially the signs that the car is getting ready to bite.
    Try to find a an experienced GT3 driver in your area who would be willing to show you how not to drive the car on the street.

    Here are two threads that give an idea of what it is like to live with a GT3:

    http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=270005
    http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=271056

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    Quote:
    RR4 said:
    Any way you cut it a stock 997GT3 is 6 seconds faster than a stock 996GT3 - which by the way is 7 seconds faster than a stock 430.




    Difficult to confirm until both are run on the same compound tires under similar track conditions.

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    Your referring to a 1999 7 year old 996GT3 Cup car. Today's GT3 Cup car will do the Ring much faster than 7.49. Also, I was under the impression the standard 996 GT3 had 390hp and the 997GT3 has 415. What am I missing?

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    It doesnt matter whether it was the new or the old cup car, the point is that it was A cup car that did the 7:49 and NOT the 996GT3 road car.

    Again back to the same point, the road car 996GT3 did the ring in 7:54 NOT 7:49 and the 997GT3 road car did it in 7:48.
    Again that's 6 second IMPROVEMENT over the old car.

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Also, I was under the impression the standard 996 GT3 had 390hp and the 997GT3 has 415. What am I missing?


    996GT3 had 381hp...

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    Quote:
    adrift said:
    Quote:
    ElTonioni said:
    If you don't know you should probably be looking at something else



    That is a silly, needlessly smug response, as there are a myriad of nuances to how a car can be unforgiving. Only a fool would not seek to get some understanding of how a car (mis)behaves before finding out himself when there is the chance of bending metal. Everything I have heard about the 996 GT3 indicates it should be approached cautiously, although the flip-side is that it is wonderfully fun to drive.


    No, please take my comment seriously. If you need to ask then you should be looking at something else. Consider that a good piece of advice, not a smug response. If you want to be safe and enjoy something like a GT3 then get along to a track, take some lessons and learn how to drive it confidently and safely. Your grandchildren might have cause to thank you.

    If you just like how it looks you can buy a C2 and pop the aero kit on it.

    If you just want bragging rights about having the fastest Porsche... you could save a ton of money and go buy some American heap of junk with an asthmatic, inefficient but huge capacity cast iron engine and a live axle.

    I'm just trying to help you understand what you want from a car so you can get the car that suits you.

    (Seriously, do yourself a favour and get to a track. The GT3 is a great car if you know how to keep it going forwards without going backwards)

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    The issue is whether the 997 GT3 is that much different than the 996 GT3. THe Ring times are subject to so many variable between the same car it is difficult to judge whether the times have any meaning considering the small difference (six seconds over a eight minute period of time).

    Here is what Road and Track had to say about the two.

    Compared with a 3.8-liter Carrera S, the lighter, more responsive GT3 accelerates with a frenetic sense of urgency. It's most noticeably quicker not only in the speed with which the engine revs, but also in how hard it hits after each gearchange. The transmission's shorter ratios make better use of the engine's available power, especially at higher rpm. Against the 996-based GT3, the difference is a little less clear-cut, but its better midrange torque and improved breathing are likely worth a few tenths at the drag strip. Expect a 0-60-mph time in the low 4's or even possibly the high 3-second range.

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    Quote:
    ElTonioni said:
    No, please take my comment seriously. If you need to ask then you should be looking at something else. Consider that a good piece of advice, not a smug response. If you want to be safe and enjoy something like a GT3 then get along to a track, take some lessons and learn how to drive it confidently and safely. Your grandchildren might have cause to thank you.

    If you just like how it looks you can buy a C2 and pop the aero kit on it.

    If you just want bragging rights about having the fastest Porsche... you could save a ton of money and go buy some American heap of junk with an asthmatic, inefficient but huge capacity cast iron engine and a live axle.

    I'm just trying to help you understand what you want from a car so you can get the car that suits you.

    (Seriously, do yourself a favour and get to a track. The GT3 is a great car if you know how to keep it going forwards without going backwards)



    <rant snipped> Whatever dude. I will sleep better knowing you are out there watching over me. lol

    Maverick, thanks for the links. Some good info in there.

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    RR4 said:
    Any way you cut it a stock 997GT3 is 6 seconds faster than a stock 996GT3 - which by the way is 7 seconds faster than a stock 430.




    Difficult to confirm until both are run on the same compound tires under similar track conditions.



    Inded it is. But the new compound Cup tyres on the 997 GT3 are about 7 seconds faster than the street tyres that the 996 GT3 was timed on. This suggests that with the same tyres the old and new GT3 have similar Ring times.

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    I hear what you are saying but, firstly, where are we getting the 7 seconds?. Secondly, the cup tires on the 997GT3 are not "cup tires". The ones on the 997GT3 are of a new compund that sacrifice dry grip for wet weather grip.

    To be fair it is still difficult to compare UNLESS the 996GT3 is re-run at the ring with these new compund tires OR the 997GT3 is run with the "old" compound tires.

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    Quote:
    adrift said:
    The 996 GT3 has been described as tricky and quick to bite if not driven correctly / carefully. Can someone please provide some more descriptive insight into what people mean when they say this? Under what conditions does the car misbehave? What are the ramifications? How to best correct or catch it?

    I would like a little more info on what people mean when they talk about the handling idiosynchracies of the 996 variant; test driving a car rarely provides an opportunity to try it at the limit, so seeing for myself isn't really a possibility.

    Thanks



    To me the 'ring laptimes b/t the two cars is a collateral issue and does not answer the original question. I'll try to take a stab at it.

    I had the 996 GT3 and tracked it, as well as several 996 cars before that and a 997S after that. To me, the change from the 996 to the 997 chassis is huge. Steering accuracy, stability, overall precision were all vastly improved in the 997. My main issue with the 996 GT3 is the screwed up suspension geometry caused by excessively low ride height. This translates into nervous, gittery handling on the road, non-linear steering, tramlining and the like. On the track, however, I found a lot of this went away; when the car is loaded, all is pretty well with the way the car behaves.

    I didn't at all find the GT3 to be evil handling, ready to bite you. Rather, I found it 'busy'; lots of steering corrections, lots of movement from the rear. The suspension geometry issues have been verified by race shops who have set up these cars for track/competition. Indeed, Porsche recognized the issues and fixed them in the 996 GT3 RS, which has revised suspension pickup points. Even EVO magazine in one of its tests noted the suspensin issues and called it a fantastic but flawed car, which was 'fixed' by the RS. The improvements in the RS are said to have tranlated over into the 997 cars, which have revised wheel carriers and suespion geometry to eliminate the non linearity of the 996.

    I toyed with another 996 GT3, but if I went that route, I'd go for the RS suspension from Gert, minus the dampers (I'd use Moton club sports).

    I haven't driven the 997 GT3, but based on the 997S I owned, it will be a more stable, less jittery, more confident handling car with improved path accuracy. It also will be more benign in its shift b/t understeer and oversteer; more tractable and easier to 'catch' in the hands of a non profesional driver, weekend warriors like myslf.

    In sum, the 996 GT3 aren't 'evil' by any stretch. They communicate so well to the driver, it's fairly easy to manage the car. But it is a 'busy' car to drive on and off the track.

    Re: The 996 GT3s weakness (?)

    Now THAT is an answer with meat. Thank you.

     
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