Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    I'm so conflicted (new guy who can't make a decision)

    I've spent the past few nights reading through pages and pages of discussion here on the Rennteam.com forums and I must say that I'm extremely impressed by everyone and the overall quality of the posts and discussion here. It's left me quite sure that you folks can help me as I try to decide which (if any) Porsche I should buy for my next car. Like many of you, I've always loved Porsches and I almost feel remiss that I've never owned one.

    To set the context, my current car is a 2002 BMW M Roadster. I'm still pretty happy with it, but after five years I've started to get wandering eyes. I'm a low-mileage driver (I work from home) and I autocross (but not competitively). I've owned more than my fair share of cars prior to the M Roadster but the ones that I miss most are the '59 Austin Healey Bugeye Sprite I had in high school and my first gen Mazda Miata. "Two seats and no roof" has been my car-buying guideline for quite a number of years.

    I test drove Boxsters and 911s back when I was shopping in 2002 but came away only lukewarm. The 911s didn't appeal to me much (I only drove the coupe) and although I really wanted to want the Boxster I just couldn't come to grips with the fact that it was slower and more expensive than the saturday-night-special M Roadster. I sure did love how it handled, though.

    Today the options seem different enough to revisit. I don't find the newer BMW Z4 M Roadster to be tempting at all. Lotus will sell us Yanks an Elise now, which is worth considering. I find the 997 about a hundred times more appealing than the older 996s and Boxsters are almost-but-not-quite as fast as what I'm used to driving -- and I sure remember how great they handle.

    A few weeks ago I did what would be expected and I headed down to my local Porsche dealership and took a look at both the 911 and the Boxster. To be honest, though, I left feeling conflicted. The Boxster's every bit as great as I remember, and I sure like its mid-engine layout (some days I miss my old MR2) but even with the latest 0.2 liter bump it's still less HP than what I've got now and the torque curve looks pretty bumpy. (You could lie down and take a nap on the M Roadster's torque curve, it's like a table) I know Ruf will take a Boxster and stuff in that 3.8L X51 monster engine and I'd sort of consider going that route, but at the end of the day I'd be spending C4S money for a one-off Boxster with poor resale value that I suppose I'd have to take to Dallas for any serious servicing. Oh, and it'd stick me in a scary non-stock autocross class with the freaks in the super-modified cars.

    So, as I suspect Porsche intends, my eyes turn to the Carrera, but I see some downsides there. At the autocross my 3100 pound BMW is fat and lumbering compared to the lightweight Elises and Miatas that drive circles around me. I'm hesitant to go even heavier and the C2S Cab is way up there at 3300. I really don't care much for the vestigial back seat, especially in cabriolet form. I'm unconvinced that the rear-engine layout would even be considered if it weren't for the history and pedigree of the car. But wow, there is that history and pedigree. I'd be lying if I didn't admit that the notion of owning a 911 didn't evoke a lot of excitement. Who among us didn't spent the formative parts of their youth daydreaming about 911s? That was me, for sure.

    I guess the fact that I'm even considering buying a brand new Boxster and throwing away the engine means that neither option would be hardship financially. Even a C4S nicely-equipped wouldn't be "a stretch". Still, my wallet is modest enough that I have to really be sure that the extra dollars will be justifiable at the end of the day.

    I also have to be brutally honest with myself that I'm a little bit disappointed at how Porsche seems to intentionally constrain the Boxster. My girlfriend jokes that I should just wait until Porsche makes a "Boxster RS". I think she has a point (and I think I'm lucky as all hell to have a girlfriend that knows what "RS" means in the Porsche world). It would sort of bother me to have the Boxster knowing it could be so much better if Porsche marketing would just let the Porsche engineers treat the car right. And, also, if we're being honest, it also kind of bugs me that the Boxster has an undeserved reputation in some circles as a wife's car, or a "couldn't afford a 911" option. I put up with that kind of grief for years when I drove my "chick car" Miata and as much as I'd like to be able to say that stuff doesn't matter -- well, I guess I'm just a little bit vain. I have appreciated that my M Roadster has credibility, even if the Miata was a better car in a hundred little ways. Foolish, sure, but there's no point lying to myself about it. Stepping up the the 911 does have some appeal just for that superficial reason.

    So I'm left with neither option being my "dream", really. A heavier car with the engine in the back and two fake back seats I don't want, but with the "real" engine. Or the (I think) intentionally crippled mid-engined car for less cash but with less engine and probably a zillion little technical improvements that I'd get with the 911 and aren't even an option I can buy in the Boxster. Put bluntly, the Boxster is closer to the car I'd design myself, but the Carrera is closer to the car I'd probably be happiest with. This would all be a lot simpler if I didn't love convertibles so much!

    At the end of the day, though, I'm sure I'll be thrilled with either option. I plan to do a factory delivery and drive around Europe for a few weeks and I can think of few things better. Both cars handle a ton better than my current BMW, both are sexier, and I really love them both. My wallet and the size of my garage, though, mean that I can only bring one home.

    I'd welcome any advice you might have. Also -- which wheels weigh the least? Thanks a ton.

    Consider pre-owned

    You could look for a used 997/S Cab which would save some money. Look north over the next 6 months and you should be able to pick up a relative bargain.

    Or look at a used Boxster S and take it to Ruf to get the Balco treatment.

    If you're not convinced by any of this, then just wait. Don't buy just because of peer pressure or because you "think" you should buy one.

    Buy one only when you can't live with the idea of NOT driving one.

    Re: Consider pre-owned

    Look what beltar just did with his cab! http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=997&Number=285027&page=0&fpart=1

    ...and the back seats do come in handy.

    just test drive the 997SCab enough and you'll understand.

    Re: Consider pre-owned

    Got 04 M3, 03 986S, 06 997S.

    The BoxsterS just sits there unless it gets really sunny and warm. The "porsche with panties" image bothers me especially when there's no power coming out of it like I'd expect thinking for a moment I am driving the 997S.

    The M3 is great for comfort AND performance (in a word: easy to get in and out of, comparable safe and sane street and highway performance to the 997S).

    The CarreraS should be your choice. It's beyond criticism; everybody respects it, even P-Turbo and Ferrari owners. The Boxster is "fun to drive" but I've get lazy and like to solve traffic "problems" more with the gas pedal alone than solve them with tricky clutch/gas footwork.

    Just IMHO.

    Re: Consider pre-owned

    I had a 99 Boxster with 'only' 201hp, and just upgraded to a 997S Cab. Honestly, I can't tell the difference from a handling perspective, although I was a bit concerned about giving up the theoretically perfect front/back distribution. The 997 feels 'heavier' in a good way - better ride quality, more solid feel all around, much more quiet than the Boxster was.

    On the other had, the new 987S is 295HP, and when you combine it with the lighter car, the performance difference to the base 997 in your daily commute will probably be unnoticable.

    And either of them is way better looking the the Z4.

    The Girlfriend's POV

    I'm the girlfriend Nugget mentions in his post, and I just wanted to share my thoughts with the community.

    Nugget has no daily drive. This car won't be used on a daily commute, because he can't really drive it up and down the stairs.

    We nearly always take his car when we go to the grocery store. We also tend to take his car when we go out to dinner or head to a friend's house.

    We also autocross (aka SCCA Solo II), him in his car, I in mine. This is where the differences between the Boxster S and 911 would really matter, from my point of view. While the 911 is the more powerful car, power isn't what wins autocrosses. Driver skill is. But, driver skill in a car that handles well will beat driver skill in a car that has more power, but just can't corner as fast. The added weight and rear-heavy weight distribution of the 911 really worry me about its worthiness for autocross.

    Nugget isn't really interested in being competitive at the autocrosses, and I think he places more value on the reputation of the car than I do. I find myself really conflicted about this because the 911 has a lot of features that would be very, very useful in both a daily driver and an autocrosser that the Boxster S lacks... But it has that huge downpull of the added weight and rear heavy weight distribution. I've discovered, after driving many friends' cars, that the better cars for autocross are, generally, the ones I enjoy driving more on the street, as well.

    I guess what I'd like to see is opinions from people who have raced the cars, especially in lower speed races like autocross, on what that added weight and rear-heavy weight distribution mean for the 911 on the track. Alleviate my fears of those two features, or tell me I'm justified.

    Re: Consider pre-owned

    Welcome to the board and welcome to the agony/ecstasy of choosing your new P-car.

    There are many examples here of members going through the same dilemma. Try the search facility to share their experiences.

    Good luck.

    Re: Consider pre-owned

    I come from a Boxster and now own a 997S.
    The weight in the wrong place for me is a revelation.
    I really like the amount of traction and the fun that setup provides.
    As to the weight vs the Elise, there is a test of the 997 CS vs. the Lotus Exige and the Porsche is faster around the track with the same driver...So I wouldn't worry too much :-)

    Re: Consider pre-owned

    Alright, I'll toss in a TOTALLY off the wall option that will probably have a bunch of pinky-wagging detail-oriented dynamics-obsessed Porschephiles tossing rotten produce my direction....

    But you're wanting:

    1. A car that will shred the competition at the autocross

    2. A car that has power to spare (sounds like you're ready for a step-up in power, not a step sideways or down). And there's nothing wrong with that. There's alot of everyday fun to be had in stomping the peddle and getting such a surge you giggle.

    3. Top-down, 2-seats..

    Here's a crude yet obscenely fun if you think about it alternative, not to mention it's bringing a machine-gun to a knife fight..

    Buy a new Z06 Corvette, ignore the lousy interior, and send it here: http://www.coachbuildersltd.com/corvette.html

    for a power retractable top conversion. My father is best friends with the owner of the establishment, they do top-grade high-caliber work, and it looks/operates factory.

    It may not be the lightest thing out there, may not be the most sublime, may not have the best "habits", but I gaurantee it'd go through the field like a gorilla loose in the spider monkey cage, and be a ton of fun...(Of course, you're probably going to say... Ummmmmm, NO....)

    Re: Consider pre-owned

    Quote:
    Le Chef said:Buy one only when you can't live with the idea of NOT driving one.



    Exactly Beautifully put Le Chef. I ordered a 997S when the thought of spending another week without one became unbearable.

    Nugget,

    Welcome to Rennteam. I'm sure you've seen that this isn't just an internet board but it's much much more than that. This is a community unlike any other. If it's closed, even for one day, I miss it.

    I enjoyed reading your post. You expressed your dilemma very well.

    Deep down, you KNOW you won't be satisfied with the 987S if, psychologically you feel it isn't respected enough or if you feel it is underpowered. If it's a powerful cab you yearn for, why not consider a used 996TT Cab or a 996TTS Cab. Huge power, a cabriolet and a 911 that people will really respect.

    I'm currently waiting for my factory collection on 10 Nov.

    Best of luck with your decision..

    Re: The Girlfriend's POV

    Quote:
    Equiraptor said:
    We nearly always take his car when we go to the grocery store. We also tend to take his car when we go out to dinner or head to a friend's house.




    Welcome you two to Rennteam. If you intend to use a P-car as a grocery getter I am not sure a 911 has enough storage space that is conducive to groceries. The double "trunks" in the Boxster may be easier to get grocery bags into and out of then the one trunk and backseats of the 911. Just more food for though! LOL.. I just couldn't resist.

    BTW, Equiraptor, there are a few lady Rennteamers around. Make a blanket "hi" post and I am sure they will seek you out.

    Nugget: I hope you end up with a P-car of some type. We, my wife and I, are enjoying ours a lot.

    Re: I'm so conflicted (new guy who can't make a decision)

    Quote:
    Nugget said:
    I test drove Boxsters and 911s back when I was shopping in 2002 but came away only lukewarm. The 911s didn't appeal to me much (I only drove the coupe) and although I really wanted to want the Boxster I just couldn't come to grips with the fact that it was slower and more expensive than the saturday-night-special M Roadster.
    ...............
    A few weeks ago I did what would be expected and I headed down to my local Porsche dealership and took a look at both the 911 and the Boxster. To be honest, though, I left feeling conflicted. The Boxster's every bit as great as I remember, and I sure like its mid-engine layout (some days I miss my old MR2) but even with the latest 0.2 liter bump it's still less HP than what I've got now and the torque curve looks pretty bumpy.



    Hi Nugget & Equiraptor - welcome on board It's great if a couple does share the passion for sportscars
    Seems like you're facing the classic Porsche dilemma (like a lot of us Porschephiles).
    You mentioned that you testdrove both Carrera & Boxster back in 2002, but I understood that you recently had a look at the actual models only without testdriving them.
    I strongly recommend to testdrive both models ASAP - IMO Porsche did a great job in improving both models from 9X6 to 9X7 especially in the handling department.
    Though if you really are looking for a big step-up on the power ladder, I'm afraid both options might disappoint you (unless GT3 or TT are on your short list) - I agree with Bossnine's comments on this point.
    I'm not an Autocrosser, but I'm sure a 987S with PASM is a serious car in this department (mind you it's been tested with higher topspeed as an Enzo in the standard slalom test ) On the other hand a Carrera Cab offers more comfort on longer trips. To really feel a difference in the power department (Boxster S vs. Carrera) you should testdrive the 997 S cab (ideally with the X51 power-kit).
    If you're looking for a weekend fun sportscar cab with some Autocross sessions now and then, my nod goes to the Boxster S, unless you find the rear engine layout related handling of the Carrera more appealing. Though IMO it's hard to come up with a fair judgement about the Carrera's handling, if you'll have a short testdrive only and never drove a Carrera before. IMO it needs some time to fully explore the car's capabilities, whereas you'll be fast with the Boxster from the very first moment you drive it.
    Good luck with your decision and please go for an extensive testdrive. In theory there are tons of pros/cons Boxster vs. Carrera, but as the race drivers say: the BS ends when the green flag goes down

    Re: I'm so conflicted (new guy who can't make a decision)

    Nugget, damn...don't let her get away!

    Re: I'm so conflicted (new guy who can't make a decision)

    The Boxster is definitely easier to load groceries and other stuff than the 911, because of the two trunks. Just beware that you can't put anything which is temperature sensitive in the rear trunk, unless you plan to cook it - it gets quite warm.

    Re: I'm so conflicted (new guy who can't make a decision)

    Quote:
    Nugget said:
    So I'm left with neither option being my "dream", really.




    Re: I'm so conflicted (new guy who can't make a decision)

    Quote:
    Scotty A said:
    Just beware that you can't put anything which is temperature sensitive in the rear trunk, unless you plan to cook it - it gets quite warm.



    That's where the Pizza goes!

    Re: I'm so conflicted (new guy who can't make a decision)

    Exactly.

    Or you can buy some pre-mixed stew at the market and it's piping hot by the time you get home.

    Re: I'm so conflicted (new guy who can't make a decision)

    Thanks, everyone, for your insight and comments. I sure do have a lot to think about. All I know is that for now I keep wavering back and forth on the issue and it would be foolish to commit until I feel more settled about the decision.

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 3/28/24 3:21 AM
    watt
    688096 1780
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 2/19/24 11:51 PM
    Wonderbar
    408510 564
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 5/12/23 12:11 PM
    W8MM
    255463 288
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022 3/12/24 8:28 AM
    DJM48
    234686 323
    Porsche Sticky The new Macan: the first all-electric SUV from Porsche 1/30/24 9:18 AM
    RCA
    65314 45
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Taycan 2024 Facelift 3/15/24 1:23 PM
    CGX car nut
    4632 50
    Porsche The moment I've been waiting for... 2/1/24 7:01 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    857418 1364
    Porsche 992 GT3 7/23/23 7:01 PM
    Grant
    773087 3868
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 4/6/23 7:43 AM
    crayphile
    447504 1276
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 2/10/24 4:43 PM
    nberry
    378502 1526
    Porsche GT4RS 2/22/24 5:16 AM
    tso
    365220 1424
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 7/3/23 12:30 PM
    Porker
    360473 797
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 12/13/23 2:48 PM
    CGX car nut
    354338 2401
    Lambo Aventador and SV 3/30/23 1:59 PM
    CGX car nut
    278746 724
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 4/21/23 8:09 AM
    the-missile
    275125 550
    Porsche Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour 3/14/24 8:55 PM
    blueflame
    272237 658
    Porsche Collected my 997 GTS today 10/19/23 7:06 PM
    CGX car nut
     
     
     
     
     
    248085 812
    Lambo Huracán EVO STO 7/30/23 6:59 PM
    mcdelaug
    224829 346
    Others Corvette C8 10/16/23 3:24 PM
    Enmanuel
    217773 488
    Lotus Lotus Emira 6/25/23 2:53 PM
    Enmanuel
    196346 101
    Others Gordon Murray - T.50 11/22/23 10:27 AM
    mcdelaug
    155139 387
    Porsche Back to basics - 996 GT3 RS 6/11/23 5:13 PM
    CGX car nut
    126725 144
    Ferrari [2022] Ferrari Purosangue (SUV) 4/15/23 5:20 AM
    watt
    120323 141
    BMW M 2024 BMW M3 CS Official Now 12/29/23 9:04 AM
    RCA
    105824 303
    Motor Sp. 2023 Formula One 12/19/23 5:38 AM
    WhoopsyM
    102445 685
    Others Valkyrie final design? 4/28/23 2:45 AM
    Rossi
    97620 219
    Porsche 2022 992 Safari Model 3/7/24 4:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    81004 239
    AMG Mercedes-Benz W124 500E aka Porsche typ 2758 2/23/24 10:03 PM
    blueflame
    74328 297
    Porsche 992 GT3 RS 3/3/24 7:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    52083 314
    Motor Sp. Porsche 963 3/16/24 9:27 PM
    WhoopsyM
    23072 237
    133 items found, displaying 1 to 30.