Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste - Page5

Oct 8, 2006 11:08:39 AM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: ALDO

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

Quote:
mumbasic said:
Gnil,

you are right about the quality. Also RCs posts are missing. He has the reputation to cut a ridiculuos discussion.

AM

Old posters such as FixedWing and CR are missing, who were both good contributors in the early period are also gone.

What bothers me is the insane amount of new threads being open for no good reason, without searching for an existing thread first or even opening a completely useless thread, such as: "I saw an SLR yesterday, it saounded wooooow!" I thought this was Rennteam, not Supercars.net. Also, a host of uninformed statements littering Rennteam (BMW M5 & M6 don't go to 305 km/h, unless they're aftermarket, is the most recent one I can remember) are reducing the quality as well. If the moderator team needs more manpower, they should ask as there are many users who will gladly help in any way they can.

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Oct 9, 2006 6:57:48 PM

Paul S in TX: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 259, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 20, 2002; Reply to: TT Surgeon

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

Quote:
C4S Surgeon said:
Pay me 5 grand and I'll clean off the brake dust everyday!

Sold--but the daily commute to and from Dallas will be a killer

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Oct 9, 2006 7:16:57 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: Paul S in TX

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

Quote:
Paul S in TX said:
Quote:
C4S Surgeon said:
Pay me 5 grand and I'll clean off the brake dust everyday!

Sold--but the daily commute to and from Dallas will be a killer

Sold here too. But even though C4S Surgeon lives in my neighborhood I doubt he really would take $5000 to clean my brakes everyday. That'd only be $2.75 per day (over the next 5 yrs).

Or to pay for the entire PCCB system ($8000) it costs only $4.40 a day (before interest). Worth it imo.

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Oct 9, 2006 7:19:35 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: silverrules

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

Quote:
silverrules said:
Stradale, You are right on with your analysis. I reviewed the cost of PCCB pad change in comparison to rotor change cost on steel with my service advisor before going with PCCB. You tried your best to explain but since they already bought steel, of course they wont agree , hahaha

I think you nailed it right on the head.
Funny thing is - I have the steel brakes now too. Not the first or last mistake I'll ever make.

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Oct 10, 2006 1:02:39 AM

stubenhocker: Pilot; Loc: PDX USA; Posts: 476, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 13, 2005; Reply to: eclou

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

I am pretty sure you can get PCCB's on 18" 997 wheel or Boxster, Cayman 18" as well.
Configurator allows it to be speced this way. I am considering them for a 997C4.
I appreciate the expertise of the contributors here.

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Oct 10, 2006 3:43:14 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: stubenhocker

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

Quote:
stubenhocker said:
I am pretty sure you can get PCCB's on 18" 997 wheel or Boxster, Cayman 18" as well...

Not on the GT3 & Turbo, since they use a bigger front brake system (derived of the CGT) than the smaller models. You are right though with the remaining models.

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Nov 27, 2006 7:01:18 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

New braking record at AutoWeek done w/ a PCCB equipped turbo:

"But the Turbo didn't only dominate off the line. It took the top spot in braking, too, using just 99 feet of tarmac to come to a stop from 60 mph. That beats all comers before it, including the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution that previously held the record at 100 feet flat.

Much of the credit for that record-breaking stopping power falls to the $8,840 optional ceramic brakes found on our test car, which never overheated, smoked or pulsed even after repeated hard braking from 100 mph."

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061124/FREE/61120023/1004/THISWEEKSISSUE

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Nov 27, 2006 9:07:04 PM

RSA333: Junior; Loc: MD , United States; Posts: 90, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 15, 2004; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

From Wright-Patterson's Directorate for fighter planes..."While there are no specific problems with the currently used C/C material for aircraft brakes, this material is expensive and has a variable friction coefficient, leading to "morning sickness" (low friction coefficient with a cold, damp brake) and brake fade under rejected takeoff conditions".

Just FYI - Gerry

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Nov 27, 2006 9:24:01 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: RSA333

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

Quote:
RSA333 said:
From Wright-Patterson's Directorate for fighter planes..."While there are no specific problems with the currently used C/C material for aircraft brakes, this material is expensive and has a variable friction coefficient, leading to "morning sickness" (low friction coefficient with a cold, damp brake) and brake fade under rejected takeoff conditions".

Just FYI - Gerry

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Nov 28, 2006 4:00:41 PM

RSA333: Junior; Loc: MD , United States; Posts: 90, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 15, 2004; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

The brakes are very similar on the aircraft to the PCCBs on the 997 Twin Turbo - this was even mentioned in their report! Another quote - "the replacement cost and fragility of the C/C brakes does not justify their application. Mechanics reported that the steel brakes were easier to service."

Of course, fighter planes have very different physics-based requirements compared to the 997TT (heavier G-loading, torque), but I thought that it was interesting that very similar issues were of concern to the engineers.

My friend designed the F-22 cockpit, working out of Wright-Pat. This is not classified information!

-Gerry

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Nov 28, 2006 5:21:28 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: RSA333

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

Quote:
RSA333 said:
The brakes are very similar on the aircraft to the PCCBs on the 997 Twin Turbo - this was even mentioned in their report! Another quote - "the replacement cost and fragility of the C/C brakes does not justify their application. Mechanics reported that the steel brakes were easier to service."

Of course, fighter planes have very different physics-based requirements compared to the 997TT (heavier G-loading, torque), but I thought that it was interesting that very similar issues were of concern to the engineers.

My friend designed the F-22 cockpit, working out of Wright-Pat. This is not classified information!

-Gerry

????? Okay doke.

RE:
"the replacement cost and fragility of the C/C brakes does not justify their application. Mechanics reported that the steel brakes were easier to service."

Are we talking about cars or planes?
If we're talking about on the 997 turbo that's especially strange since the PCCB rotor can run 300,000 PDA tested miles with virtually no wear. No REPLACEMENT or service necessary. With steel you need to SERVICE cut or REPLACE the rotors w/ approx. EVERY PAD CHANGE (as Porsche recommends) meaning labor and replacement costs to own steel is significantly higher than PCCB's. And the more miles you drive the more you'll need mechanics to cut/change your steel rotors. It's all covered in the previous pages of this thread.

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Nov 28, 2006 8:36:18 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

Quote:
STRADALE said:
With steel you need to SERVICE cut or REPLACE the rotors w/ approx. EVERY PAD CHANGE (as Porsche recommends) meaning labor and replacement costs to own steel is significantly higher than PCCB's.

I just changed rotors on my 993 (after about 3 sets of pads were changed over several years - I throw away pads when they get to 1/2 thickness) and it took me about 1 hour of my own time and $450 for the rotors and new caliper bolts. I'm sure the 997TT is a bit pricier with the larger steel rotors, but I can't imagine PCCB being cheaper if you do your own work and don't replace rotors until it's really necessary...

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Nov 28, 2006 10:59:09 PM

AUM: Veteran; Loc: Germany; Posts: 1203, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2006; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

'To understand his (Walter's) comments, one more thing to add; he also advised friends to choose the Cayenne S over the Cayenne turbo since that model is absolutely sufficient.'

I owned both Cayennes and must say I agree with Walter. The S is a more balanced truck. I tuned the Turbo to 550 bhp, lowered it and added 22" wheels, but I still preferred the drivability of the S. The CT was a hard truck for me to love.

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Nov 28, 2006 11:17:23 PM

LoranTw: Senior; Loc: Canada; Posts: 569, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 14, 2006; Reply to: AUM

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

Aum where you been...writing another book? Good to have you back.

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Nov 29, 2006 5:25:57 AM

silverrules: Senior; Loc: N. Calif , United States; Posts: 784, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 5, 2005; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

Quote:
STRADALE said:
New braking record at AutoWeek done w/ a PCCB equipped turbo:

"But the Turbo didn't only dominate off the line. It took the top spot in braking, too, using just 99 feet of tarmac to come to a stop from 60 mph. That beats all comers before it, including the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution that previously held the record at 100 feet flat.

Much of the credit for that record-breaking stopping power falls to the $8,840 optional ceramic brakes found on our test car, which never overheated, smoked or pulsed even after repeated hard braking from 100 mph."

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061124/FREE/61120023/1004/THISWEEKSISSUE

Stradale, when I read the Autoweek earlier this week about the PCCB and the stopping performance, it reminded me of this thread

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Nov 29, 2006 6:35:37 AM

AUM: Veteran; Loc: Germany; Posts: 1203, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2006; Reply to: LoranTw

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

Quote:
LoranTw said:
Aum where you been...writing another book? Good to have you back.

I am still considering the pros and cons of a 996 GT2 and a 997 GT3. Even with the outstanding accolades the GT3 is receiving, I am leaning towards the 2004 GT2 for its enormous thrust combined with everyday drivability - and its allure as the last great 911 without driver aids. On the other hand I love the sound, style and interior of the new GT3 - but I would have an issue with Turbos overtaking me on the autobahn.

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Nov 30, 2006 9:27:36 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: silverrules

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

Quote:
silverrules said:
Quote:
STRADALE said:
New braking record at AutoWeek done w/ a PCCB equipped turbo:

"But the Turbo didn't only dominate off the line. It took the top spot in braking, too, using just 99 feet of tarmac to come to a stop from 60 mph. That beats all comers before it, including the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution that previously held the record at 100 feet flat.

Much of the credit for that record-breaking stopping power falls to the $8,840 optional ceramic brakes found on our test car, which never overheated, smoked or pulsed even after repeated hard braking from 100 mph."

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061124/FREE/61120023/1004/THISWEEKSISSUE

Stradale, when I read the Autoweek earlier this week about the PCCB and the stopping performance, it reminded me of this thread

Exactly the same here.

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Nov 30, 2006 9:44:45 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
STRADALE said:
With steel you need to SERVICE cut or REPLACE the rotors w/ approx. EVERY PAD CHANGE (as Porsche recommends) meaning labor and replacement costs to own steel is significantly higher than PCCB's.

I just changed rotors on my 993 (after about 3 sets of pads were changed over several years - I throw away pads when they get to 1/2 thickness) and it took me about 1 hour of my own time and $450 for the rotors and new caliper bolts. I'm sure the 997TT is a bit pricier with the larger steel rotors, but I can't imagine PCCB being cheaper if you do your own work and don't replace rotors until it's really necessary...

If you changed steel rotors after 3 pad changes but only use about 50% of the pad before you throw them out then you've changed rotors after only about 1.5 pad changes which is about what is recommended.

It is still a lot cheaper to maintain PCCB's then Steel even if you do your own brake work for the simple fact that PCCB pad's and steel rotor pads cost about the same but w/ the PCCB set-up you don't have to change the rotors with every pad change (like Porsche recommends) or so. Matter of fact you'll probably NEVER have to change the PCCB rotors because of wear. Unless you plan on more than 400,000 miles or more than 175,000 track miles.

Besides, I bet you can count all the guys here that are going to do their own brake work on their 997 turbo's on one hand.........Maybe even with a couple of finger's. Maybe on one finger. Besides even if someone here decides to do their own brake jobs on their 997 turbo it still means you have to buy the steel rotors to replace which are going to be a lot more expensive than the cost of your 993 rotors, more than double what you paid actually. In other words you save about $1000 w/ the PCCB set-up everytime you do a pad change because you wont need new steel rotors.

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Nov 30, 2006 10:18:39 PM

johnww: Junior; Loc: Florida, usa; Posts: 62, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 15, 2006; Reply to: Guy

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

Porsche tells me stopping distances are the same for both steel and ceramic. For street driving, that is my principal factor. Also steel won't crack with a stone lodged by the rotor or when changing the tire setting the ceramic owner back $5K for one rotor!! Also for unsprung weight, a driver can always buy lighter Al-wheels which subtract 10 lb/wheel much like ceramics over steel.

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Nov 30, 2006 10:43:10 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: johnww

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

Quote:
johnww said:
Porsche tells me stopping distances are the same for both steel and ceramic. For street driving, that is my principal factor. Also steel won't crack with a stone lodged by the rotor or when changing the tire setting the ceramic owner back $5K for one rotor!! Also for unsprung weight, a driver can always buy lighter Al-wheels which subtract 10 lb/wheel much like ceramics over steel.

But what if you buy the lighter aluminum/magnesium wheels and combine them with PCCB? There is always an advantage.

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Nov 30, 2006 11:33:24 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

Quote:
STRADALE said:If you changed steel rotors after 3 pad changes but only use about 50% of the pad before you throw them out then you've changed rotors after only about 1.5 pad changes which is about what is recommended.

That is how it seems, but in reality, the pads wear much more slowly (and dissipate heat much better) when they are thick. Wear goes up MUCH faster when pads get past 1/2 way...

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Nov 30, 2006 11:55:02 PM

johnww: Junior; Loc: Florida, usa; Posts: 62, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 15, 2006; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

Can reduce same usprung weight with light wt Al-wheels at a much lower price and without hassle of broken disc from badly aimed stone or problems when changing a tire.

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Dec 1, 2006 6:04:53 AM

silverrules: Senior; Loc: N. Calif , United States; Posts: 784, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 5, 2005; Reply to: johnww

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

Quote:
johnww said:
Can reduce same usprung weight with light wt Al-wheels at a much lower price and without hassle of broken disc from badly aimed stone or problems when changing a tire.

Good one. We shoulnd't buy PCCB cause stone COULD damage rotors.

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Dec 1, 2006 7:37:55 AM

andrea: Rennteam Master; Loc: Italy, Pordenone , Italy; Posts: 3569, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 24, 2003; Reply to: silverrules

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

when you take off the wheels you have to pay attentiont to nor damaging the precious PCCB.better steel

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Dec 1, 2006 2:38:50 PM

frayed: Senior; Loc: Austin, TX , United States; Posts: 510, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2004; Reply to: andrea

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

Not a turbo owner, but I have experience with the PCCBs on my 997S, have track miles in that car and my prior 996 GT3, 996 C2 et al. I've also studied the changes from the first gen to secon gen rotors;

- The second gen rotors are quite different. The new rotors are formed by an entirely different process flow (lost core, monolithic based processing) and formulation (finer carbon fiber structure and more SiC in the final product).

- PCCBs have incredible feel and modulation. A notable step above the steel GT3 brakes in my 996 GT3. Anyone who says otherwise either hasn't driven them or is so numb they should have their Porsche removed from their garage.

- Christophorus states that rotors last 10x longer in racing conditions. They did NOT state they have an infinite life.

- I don't know how germane the above comparisons to aircraft C/C brakes are. PCCBs are C:SiC. It is a silicon impregnated C/C (Carbon/Carbon) composite. That is, a porous carbon fiber/carbon matrix precursor body is impregnated with molten silicon, reacting for form SiC. The final structure should have a matrix phase of SiC providing high heat capacity, high temperature properties, hardness, and wear resistance (SiC has a Mohs hardness between 9 and 10, compared to a 10 for diamond). Similar technology is used in the context of high temperature semiconductor processing components, such as wafer boats, paddles and process tubes, which rely on a silicon infiltration process to form siliconized silicon carbide having stellar high temperature properties. The rotors are made by the SGL Carbon Group for Porsche.

- Like stated above, there seems to be no anecdotal evidence of rotor replacement. Hard track users of PCCBs have been replacing pads at 1/2 thickness to prevent rotor problems.

- Despite the second gen improvements, based on lack of data out there and based on the albeit inferior Gen 1's, the second gen PCCBs are a risk.

- I had no squealing problems at all. Nary a peep!

- Initial bite is to die for under all conditions except after running your car through a car wash (ACK) or through really really heavy monsoon rains. In such conditions, the first time you hit the brakes after extended driving on the highway, you get this OH [beep] reaction as they take a split second to come on. I had no cold initial bite issues at all.

- Perhaps 20% the brake dust of steel. Maybe even less.

- Heel-Toeing is a bear with PCCBs (at least for me). The brake pedal is so sensitive, and higher than the gas, that it makes for tough heel toeing whether I did it by rolling my ankle or rotating my heel over. In contrast, heel toeing is easy in my ferrari, my prior gt3 and the various bmws I have/had.

- In my upcoming GT3, I remain torn on them. . . . I would certainly miss them but not getting them is the safer bet.

- Finally, I seriously doubt the 175,000 mile comment above. Do you really think that a 997 PDE car has seen 175,000 miles????? That is friggen absurd. More like 20 cars with 8750 miles each. That's a much less compelling data point that a track driven car with 175k miles on the clock. C'mon folks, THINK.

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Dec 1, 2006 3:28:59 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: silverrules

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

Quote:
silverrules said:
Quote:
johnww said:
Can reduce same usprung weight with light wt Al-wheels at a much lower price and without hassle of broken disc from badly aimed stone or problems when changing a tire.

Good one. We shoulnd't buy PCCB cause stone COULD damage rotors.

People are strange.
The same people would be singing the praises of PCCB's and I bet every one of them would choose Ceramics over steel if it were a no cost option. It's a cost thing and then wanting to justify/validate their decision.

Don't get PCCB because you're worried about damaging them and 'Buy light weight wheels to reduce the un-sprung weight instead of getting PCCB's' ????????????? But doesn't that mean you just bought wheels that are more likey to get damaged from a pot-hole and you spent thousands of dollars? Why not just get the better braking system? The point doesn't hold water. Besides which I don't think you could reduce weight w/ wheels by the same amount PCCB saves...............Hmmmm AND you'd have the steel rotors with custom rims? No thank ya.

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Dec 1, 2006 5:28:37 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: FSU-997TT

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

Quote:
FSU-997TT said:
FACT#1 - A replacement steel rotor won't cost 6 grand......

You make a little mistake: a completely NEW rotor is that much. Most of the time, you get a "refurbished" rotor but only if your "old" rotors were still "usable" for refurbishment. I don't know how they do it but such rotors (from Porsche) cost much much less.

Regarding track racing: for serious semi-professional track racing over more than a dozend of rounds, I would recommend the steel brake for cost reasons.
For street driving and casual track racing, the PCCB is much better from many points of view. Stopping distance at higher speeds, fading on hotter days, lower unsprung weight, etc. And maybe the PCCB even looks better.

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Dec 2, 2006 5:25:21 AM

TT Gasman: Co-Pilot; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 241, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 18, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

Quote:
RC said:

For street driving and casual track racing, the PCCB is much better from many points of view. Stopping distance at higher speeds, fading on hotter days, lower unsprung weight, etc. And maybe the PCCB even looks better.

PCCBs have shorter stopping distances than big reds? That's the first time I've heard that one. What are the actual numbers?
The number one reason some people get them was the last thing you mentioned.

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Dec 2, 2006 6:46:52 AM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: TT Gasman

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

Quote:
DJ996 said:
Quote:
RC said:

For street driving and casual track racing, the PCCB is much better from many points of view. Stopping distance at higher speeds, fading on hotter days, lower unsprung weight, etc. And maybe the PCCB even looks better.

PCCBs have shorter stopping distances than big reds? That's the first time I've heard that one. What are the actual numbers?
The number one reason some people get them was the last thing you mentioned.

It would make sense since there is less unsprung weight.

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Dec 2, 2006 10:46:43 AM

nick1: Senior; Loc: austria; Posts: 668, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 23, 2004; Reply to: Crash

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

PCP is like rad, man! Angel Dust, all right! yeah, i am seeing things.....

oh, you ment PCCB, sorry.

just kidding..

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Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

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Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

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Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

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