Crown

RC:

Funny, I just heard that some 911 R customers wrote complaints to Porsche because of the manual option in the new GT3. Reason? It would "devalue" the 911 R. 

Then they are investors/speculators/flippers, not Porsche enthusiasts.

Screw them...

Kobalt:

Grant:

Looks like I'll be visiting Leipzig on Oct 12th

Thanks, Dan!

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

RC:

Funny, I just heard that some 911 R customers wrote complaints to Porsche because of the manual option in the new GT3. Reason? It would "devalue" the 911 R. 

I think this would only be reasonable if Porsche had made some sort of communication that the R would be the last ever manual GT car or something

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

DaveC:

What I have a difficult time comprehending is why there is such  perpetual need to argue one's personal choice so stridently.  I can understand why manual fans were angered by the PDK only decision for the .1 GT3, but frankly if there is a choice (as there is now) who really cares about the rest?  The manual camp seems unwilling to accept  that PDK is a bona fide alternative, and the PDK crowd seems unwilling to accept that for some there are other priorities than track performance.  Perhaps their are a few screws loose in both transmissions that need tightening?

There is a 3rd camp that gets lost in this dichotomy of Manual people vs. PDK people. I have both, admittedly in lesser Porsches (an RS60 and a Cayman GTS). I enjoy and appreciate both. 

I am in the same camp. I own both manual and dual clutch cars and enjoy both. I just don't like manual in a modern ultra performance car.

Grant:

Looks like I'll be visiting Leipzig on Oct 12th

Let us know if you are doing a tour ...... maybe we can meet again on a tracks somewhere 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Gnil:

Grant:

Looks like I'll be visiting Leipzig on Oct 12th

Let us know if you are doing a tour ...... maybe we can meet again on a tracks somewhere 

Will do   Thinking about a couple RIng and Spa dates.  There is also a date in late October at Red Bull RIng, but not sure if the weather is likely to be good that late in the year there?

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

SciFrog:

I am in the same camp. I own both manual and dual clutch cars and enjoy both. I just don't like manual in a modern ultra performance car.

I guess same here, and even a full automatic like in my Cayenne.

But I would go one step further and say manual and modern cars, not just ultra performance cars, don't mix. 

Driving a manual is a lost art, the 20 something right now most of them don't even know how to drive a manual, modern electronics helps with rev match and hill hold, but by the same token these 'helper' take away the charm and skill of driving a manual. In an older car, starting from a slope means using all 4 limps, how many kids can do that?

Whoopsy:

In an older car, starting from a slope means using all 4 limbs, how many kids can do that?

I have to do that every day on my commute - red light on a steep hill (and my Evo with light flywheel is particularly unforgiving car to do this - no compression on little 2.0L at high altitude with no boost built from idle).  Very easy to stall or rev too much and wear the clutch 

GT4 on the same hill makes me wonder how anyone complains about that manual as daily driver

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Whoopsy:

In an older car, starting from a slope means using all 4 limps, how many kids can do that?

 

I actually stalled my GT4 first time I had to start from a steep hill.  The "hill hold" feature requires more power before it releases the brake than I expected.  Sometimes electronics are a hindrance until you learn their behavior.

IMO, it depends on the speed of the car and the explosiveness of the engine as well.  GT4 is a quick car, but not like the GT3 and others, so he manual helps add a layer of entertainment.  I would probably get PDK in the GT3 if I was ordering one today, but I'm only 75% certain of that.

Nice thing about older cars like my Lotus is that you don't care how fast you are going...all about the experience.

The CGT had some issues. Many were stalling the engine in first gear. Interestedly, I did not have a problem when I drove it and I am not a MT enthusiast. But it definitely took away from the experience. One of the first ones delivered in San Diego was rear ended because of stalling at a light.

"A man wrapped up in himself makes for a very small bundle."

nberry:

The CGT had some issues. Many were stalling the engine in first gear. Interestedly, I did not have a problem when I drove it and I am not a MT enthusiast. But it definitely took away from the experience. One of the first ones delivered in San Diego was rear ended because of stalling at a light.

 

I would say some people had issues not the CGT itself.

Peculiar and different clutch then other manual cars but not something that could be blamed for poor design, folks who took a second or two to learn it, had no problems ever....

absent:

nberry:

The CGT had some issues. Many were stalling the engine in first gear. Interestedly, I did not have a problem when I drove it and I am not a MT enthusiast. But it definitely took away from the experience. One of the first ones delivered in San Diego was rear ended because of stalling at a light.

 

I would say some people had issues not the CGT itself.

Peculiar and different clutch then other manual cars but not something that could be blamed for poor design, folks who took a second or two to learn it, had no problems ever....

I don't believe anyone was knocking the design of the CGT clutch. The point Nick was making and with which I agree is today not many people know how to drive a manual well. Yet, we get some enthusiast clamoring for MT they cannot use competently in a car designed for PDK.

"A man wrapped up in himself makes for a very small bundle."

Grant, it looks fun doesn't it? :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z8vnr5JYbg

vantagesc:

Grant, it looks fun doesn't it? :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z8vnr5JYbg

Indeed 

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Why is he moving his right hand from the steering wheel all the time?

I also notice that he is left foot breaking a lot. Impressive!u

absent:

nberry:

The CGT had some issues. Many were stalling the engine in first gear. Interestedly, I did not have a problem when I drove it and I am not a MT enthusiast. But it definitely took away from the experience. One of the first ones delivered in San Diego was rear ended because of stalling at a light.

 

I would say some people had issues not the CGT itself.

Peculiar and different clutch then other manual cars but not something that could be blamed for poor design, folks who took a second or two to learn it, had no problems ever....

I think the clutch set up must have varied car by car. I owned CGT No 114 and the clutch was horrible it rendered the car pretty much unusable for anything other than planned trips. Traffic lights on a slope ? nightmare !!

Plenty of people say that the clutch was learnable and no problem which makes me think either they altered the clutch/ECU interaction on later cars or some people are FOS.....

I even made a stupid video in an effort to get some help on the stalling issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fehUEJo0U3E

Just to show I wasn't a complete novice, I was capable of moving the car off the line despite the horrid clutch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpCV_CB7t0c

997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN

TB993tt:

absent:

nberry:

The CGT had some issues. Many were stalling the engine in first gear. Interestedly, I did not have a problem when I drove it and I am not a MT enthusiast. But it definitely took away from the experience. One of the first ones delivered in San Diego was rear ended because of stalling at a light.

 

I would say some people had issues not the CGT itself.

Peculiar and different clutch then other manual cars but not something that could be blamed for poor design, folks who took a second or two to learn it, had no problems ever....

I think the clutch set up must have varied car by car. I owned CGT No 114 and the clutch was horrible it rendered the car pretty much unusable for anything other than planned trips. Traffic lights on a slope ? nightmare !!

Plenty of people say that the clutch was learnable and no problem which makes me think either they altered the clutch/ECU interaction on later cars or some people are FOS.....

I even made a stupid video in an effort to get some help on the stalling issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fehUEJo0U3E

Just to show I wasn't a complete novice, I was capable of moving the car off the line despite the horrid clutch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpCV_CB7t0c

Supposedly the 2005 model was a lot easier to learn then the 2004 which I had.

Never had the opportunity to drive it so just repeating what I heard, it took me a few days of driving in a city/suburbs environment to learn enough to not have any frustrating or embarrassing moments anymore (nothing sucks more then stalling a supercar at a stop light with everyone watching you).

absent:

 

Supposedly the 2005 model was a lot easier to learn then the 2004 which I had.

Never had the opportunity to drive it so just repeating what I heard, it took me a few days of driving in a city/suburbs environment to learn enough to not have any frustrating or embarrassing moments anymore (nothing sucks more then stalling a supercar at a stop light with everyone watching you).

Yeah I think you are right they did something to the ECU on the later models so that it didn't stall as easily when starting off. 

997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN

Whoopsy:

SciFrog:

I am in the same camp. I own both manual and dual clutch cars and enjoy both. I just don't like manual in a modern ultra performance car.

 

I guess same here, and even a full automatic like in my Cayenne.

But I would go one step further and say manual and modern cars, not just ultra performance cars, don't mix. 

Driving a manual is a lost art, the 20 something right now most of them don't even know how to drive a manual, modern electronics helps with rev match and hill hold, but by the same token these 'helper' take away the charm and skill of driving a manual. In an older car, starting from a slope means using all 4 limps, how many kids can do that?

 

Today I was driving on my favorite route, a very nice and deserted country road with lots of twists and turns (unfortunately many motorcycle riders discovered the same road and I hate driving behind them ) and to hit 100 kph, you really need to be courageous (never understood why there is no lower speed limit). Since I discovered that I can drive in my R8 with Performance mode DRY and ESP active (I just have to press the ESP again, to re-activate it), today

I drove the hell out of my car and it was amazing fun without a bigger risk (ESP on). I did the same route in my Shelby GT500 with manual and I can tell you that while the Shelby was a challenge, it was much more fun with the R8 and shifting DCT in manual mode. So while I can shift manually (and I think pretty well too ), I do not really miss it or see it as something I should know or keep doing. So long manual...the Shelby was certainly my last manual car. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

It's kind of an apples vs. oranges comparison because the GT500 would still be less stable than the R8 even if the GT500 had DCT.

Still I see what you are saying and comes down to whether the effort you spend shifting manually is "worth" the trouble.  Because modern cars are increasingly less communicative and emotional, so much of the entertainment value comes from the speed they deliver and whether that speed can be delivered in a way that is thrilling but not scary.  So I can definitely see it being the case that some cars, having DCT allows the extraction of performance with less effort that on balance is more thrilling than it would have been with manual.  Safer, easier, and faster.

Now you flip it around to a slower but older car.  Yes there has to be some performance, but the thrills come from feeling every inch of the road, feeling the weight move forward and back, feedback coming from the steering wheel, feeling vibration of the engine through the seat.  In that context, DCT is removing the interaction that is a key basis of entertainment.  In the case of a GT3, I think that car is "fast enough" for the road as well, and is a pretty composed car to boot, so it's a tossup between manual and PDK.

vantagesc:

It's kind of an apples vs. oranges comparison because the GT500 would still be less stable than the R8 even if the GT500 had DCT.

Still I see what you are saying and comes down to whether the effort you spend shifting manually is "worth" the trouble.  Because modern cars are increasingly less communicative and emotional, so much of the entertainment value comes from the speed they deliver and whether that speed can be delivered in a way that is thrilling but not scary.  So I can definitely see it being the case that some cars, having DCT allows the extraction of performance with less effort that on balance is more thrilling than it would have been with manual.  Safer, easier, and faster.

Now you flip it around to a slower but older car.  Yes there has to be some performance, but the thrills come from feeling every inch of the road, feeling the weight move forward and back, feedback coming from the steering wheel, feeling vibration of the engine through the seat.  In that context, DCT is removing the interaction that is a key basis of entertainment.  In the case of a GT3, I think that car is "fast enough" for the road as well, and is a pretty composed car to boot, so it's a tossup between manual and PDK.

 

 

 

You lost when you claim that you cannot feel the car interacting with the road while driving PDK. If anything, you feel it more because your senses are not disrupted by having to shift constantly. However, I agree that constant shifting is more involving but to me in an unpleasant distracting driving experience. All super high performance cars are designed for DCT. 

Porsche is accommodating a vocal minority. I am surprised Porsche hasn't produced a few air cooled GT3's to accommodate them.

"A man wrapped up in himself makes for a very small bundle."

nberry:  All super high performance cars are designed for DCT.

The Viper ACR Extreme Aero laps many tracks faster than a 918...

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/news/a27254/the-dodge-viper-is-going-out-on-a-high-note-setting-13-track-records/

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

nberry:

Porsche is accommodating a vocal minority.

I'm grateful that the vocal minority includes some influential Porsche employees like Andreas Preuninger and Walter Röhrl

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Grant:

nberry:  All super high performance cars are designed for DCT.

The Viper ACR Extreme Aero laps many tracks faster than a 918...

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/news/a27254/the-dodge-viper-is-going-out-on-a-high-note-setting-13-track-records/

 

--

 

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

 

Grant it sort of proves my point. The ACR may have been designed for MT. BTW, I don't consider the ACR a super sport car.

AP agreed to MT solely for sales. He has acknowledged the car is designed for PDK but if some want MT I'll give it to them.

"A man wrapped up in himself makes for a very small bundle."

nberry:

AP agreed to MT solely for sales. He has acknowledged the car is designed for PDK but if some want MT I'll give it to them.

He also acknowledged that his personal GT3 is manual, as did Walter...

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

nberry:

vantagesc:

It's kind of an apples vs. oranges comparison because the GT500 would still be less stable than the R8 even if the GT500 had DCT.

Still I see what you are saying and comes down to whether the effort you spend shifting manually is "worth" the trouble.  Because modern cars are increasingly less communicative and emotional, so much of the entertainment value comes from the speed they deliver and whether that speed can be delivered in a way that is thrilling but not scary.  So I can definitely see it being the case that some cars, having DCT allows the extraction of performance with less effort that on balance is more thrilling than it would have been with manual.  Safer, easier, and faster.

Now you flip it around to a slower but older car.  Yes there has to be some performance, but the thrills come from feeling every inch of the road, feeling the weight move forward and back, feedback coming from the steering wheel, feeling vibration of the engine through the seat.  In that context, DCT is removing the interaction that is a key basis of entertainment.  In the case of a GT3, I think that car is "fast enough" for the road as well, and is a pretty composed car to boot, so it's a tossup between manual and PDK.

 

 

 

You lost when you claim that you cannot feel the car interacting with the road while driving PDK. If anything, you feel it more because your senses are not disrupted by having to shift constantly. However, I agree that constant shifting is more involving but to me in an unpleasant distracting driving experience. All super high performance cars are designed for DCT. 

Porsche is accommodating a vocal minority. I am surprised Porsche hasn't produced a few air cooled GT3's to accommodate them.

I only claim that PDK detracts from the overall interaction, not that it removes all sources of interaction.  For those cars where interaction is the basis of entertainment, I don't know why you would want reduce that.  There is driving feel to spare.  On the other hand, you might need PDK on a modern car to properly manage its speed and maybe even lack of feel.

I have had dual clutch cars.  I almost didn't buy GT4 because it was manual only, but have concluded that it would be too boring on the street at current power levels with PDK.  You do get good feel in the GT4, but only when you start pushing the car, not at normal speeds.

Therefore, if you again conclude that the 991.2 GT3 is too fast to properly enjoy on the street, then you might find yourself having a love / hate relationship with it because driving at normal speeds is not satisfying.

vantagesc:

Therefore, if you again conclude that the 991.2 GT3 is too fast to properly enjoy on the street, then you might find yourself having a love / hate relationship with it because driving at normal speeds is not satisfying.

I give him 6 months, then that GT3 will be up for replacement 

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White

bluelines:

vantagesc:

Therefore, if you again conclude that the 991.2 GT3 is too fast to properly enjoy on the street, then you might find yourself having a love / hate relationship with it because driving at normal speeds is not satisfying.

I give him 6 months, then that GT3 will be up for replacement 

Well, he did acknowledge up front that he intends to trade for RS.  But that's even less appropriate as a street cruiser, imo.  But from a financial perspective, he's headed the right direction.

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi