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KresoF1 said:Mike, I respect you a lot, but would you honestly recommend PCCBs to 997 Turbo buyer who will drive his Turbo 90% of time in town?
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STRADALE said:
..."The cost isn't much different from regular brake pads."
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W8MM said:Quote:
KresoF1 said:
It that case Walter Rohrl is among them...
Unless, of course, Walter's thoughts about PCCB vs. cast-iron brakes have been misunderstood, misapplied, or misconstrued.
Could he have been talking about the overall BTU capacity of each type? How about measured stopping distances, irrespective of feel, fade, or other behavior?
Hearsay or inaccurately applied quotations attributed to a famous person can be just as misleading as hearsay from mistaken readers of car magazines.
I trust Hr. Roehrl's observations about anything Porsche, but I don't trust casual paraphrases of his conversations repeated without accurate context.
In this particular case of PCCB vs. cast-iron brake desirability, my direct observations don't match up with the hearsay. Some people prefer to believe that whatever is too highly priced for their tastes is somehow not "worth it". They may grasp at the thinnest reed to "prove" their point, using a certain amount of willful misunderstanding.
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Ferdie said:
In the recent AMS comparison the Audi RS4 was compared both with steel and cc-rotors. The test data revealed, that one wouldn't make a bad choice with any of these - the steel rotors performed absolutely sufficiently, all of this in a heavy sedan.
Regarding Röhrl's comments, as accurate a third-hand report may be, the car definately benefits from the more expensive brake option - but the standard steel brakes don't come with a significant drawback which would make them obsolete.
To understand his comments, one more thing to add; he also advised friends to choose the Cayenne S over the Cayenne turbo since that model is absolutely sufficient. However not many followed his advise but ordered the more expensive model instead.
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STRADALE said:
..."The cost isn't much different from regular brake pads."
The brake pads don't make the difference, the rotors do!
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STRADALE said:Quote:
STRADALE said:
..."The cost isn't much different from regular brake pads."
The brake pads don't make the difference, the rotors do!
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yah said:Quote:
STRADALE said:Quote:
STRADALE said:
..."The cost isn't much different from regular brake pads."
The brake pads don't make the difference, the rotors do!
And I've yet to hear anyone that's needed to replace the rotors based on wear. But even if they did I'm not sure the $ DIFFERENCE is that great,,,,, if any. The pads are really the only parts that 99% of people need to be concerned about replacing, IF they are the type to track their cars frequently. And if you're only doing street driving highly unlikely you'll ever, ever need to replace rotors, probably not even pads. It's like saying I want to buy a 997 because if I blow the motor of a turbo after my warranty it will cost too much to replace. Just doesn't make sense. And IF you need to replace PCCB pads it's likey you would have had to replace steel rotor pads twice or more. Since they equal the same to replace it's actually possible you're going to spend MORE money in maintance for the steel set-up.
Read what Fanch posted:
" Now in terms of maintenance costs, I'm about the do my 7th track day this year, car has 14,000 km and I've had the car checked and serviced last month.
The pads are not even half way through their thickness and the disks are as new
I've only had the brake fluid changed and repressurised which costed peanuts.
Porsche recommends changing the discs after three sets of pads, but several GT2 owner whom I know and Ferrari CS (similar tech) are all over 5 sets of pads and the disks are just fine."
Sorry but very few people are going to go through at least 3 sets of PCCB pads. But if they are doing the TYPE OF DRIVING that requires a rotor change because they have gone through 3/4/5 sets of PCCB pads then they probably would have gone through 6-10 steel brake pads (just guessing), that's about $10k MORE for steel brake pads over time. (and more $ than the entire PCCB option) And is even bigger case for them to have the PCCB set-up over steel/ they DEFINITELY NEED PCCB'S and have more than gotten their money's worth performance wise. 10 fold........In addition they may have even saved a ton of money now because of the PCCB pad life.
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MAVERICK said:Quote:
STRADALE said:
"The cost isn't much different from regular brake pads."
Would you please ask your dealer the cost difference between replacing four cast iron vs. four PCCB rotors?
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STRADALE said:Quote:
yah said:
This is observation is only half true.
In theory you will probably never encounter the change of a PCCB rotor. However, reality showed that this is not necessarily true.
The PCCB rotor is sensitive to 1) heat and 2) physical damage. That is, if the rotor overheats, it can crack. This was the reason why 1st gen PCCB rotors could die after track days. This was not based on the age of the disc but could happen to new rotors.
This seemed to be improved with the new 2nd gen PCCB, However, this was not only an improvement in the PCCB but also in the ventilation of the brakes in the 997. Porsche did not account any PCCB rotor failure after a track event. This is still the case. However, Porsche now also uses PCCB in their race model which is an indication that they now trust the PCCB. But you might search for an Christoporus article in which it was described how much effort they go through after each race event to analyze each single disc they used for internal damage. That is something that no private driver can do.
An additional point of failure is the physical damage which can occur during wheel changes or other impact to the disc ( stones etc).
Regarding the price you should check your sources on the price of the rotors etc. The complete replacement set for a GT3 from steel to PCCB with calipers, rotors and pads is 16000 $ without labour. The price of a single replacement rotor is about 4500$. That is not really in the same league as a steel rotor....
Nevertheless, PCCB are a major improvement and highly recommended.Quote:
STRADALE said:
Like I said I've yet to hear from a single person that's had to replace a PCCB rotor for wear. As for replacement because of a bad rotor's on prior PCCB system guess that would be repaired under warranty so it's still a non issue. And now w/ the next generation PCCB system I've still have yet to hear of a single failure. Like I said non issue.
The difference is that the "wear" process on PCCB is not be compared to steel. For iron you have wear due to abrasion. The abrasion on a PCCB is minimal and almost not existent. The problem of a crack on a PCCB can occur for the reason stated above which is not abrasion. This can happen disregard of age and usage and thus difficult to detect. That is the reason why Porsche gives this thumb rule to change the rotors after several pad exchanges. If a PCCB rotor fails, it seems, from the different stories that are available, that Porsche typically does not cover this under warranty even for low mileage PCCB failures.Quote:
STRADALE said:
How can calipers, rotors and pads cost $16,000 and "The price of a single replacement rotor is about 4500$." ????????? That would mean it would cost $18,000 for just rotors but $16,000 for rotors, calipers, pads???????
Besides which the first place I looked I can buy the entire system for $13k : http://e-partssales.com/Merchant2/mercha...gory_Code=997sp obviously the turbo set-up may be more.
I am not sure but did you ever bought any kind of single replacements from Porsche? The equation is not a simple addition:) You might ask your dealer of choice for a quote on a single rim vs. a complete set with tires...
Do you expect that if the whole PCCB set costs 14k$ you get a single rotor for 2K?Quote:
STRADALE said:
But No one is going to need rotors and pads are the same cost to replace. So if you look at it objectively and not based on trying to justify a decision you made already it appears the overall cost to maintain the steel set-up is about twice as much $ as the PCCB's. (more brake pad changes neccesary)
Bottom line though/point I was trying to make. - If the cost of the system makes it unaffordable to some I can understand but the posts that say brake pad/rotor replacement makes is too costly/risky are really off base. But I'm glad I looked into the maintance costs I would have never known it will actaully cost me less to maintain my PCCB turbo over time than if I had decided on steel.
Yes, this is very likely. As I wrote, I would recommend the PCCBs. I also do not know about PCCB2 failures. Therefore, you will probably never run into problems. I just got from factory visits that the difference between PCCB1 and 2 not that big and the inherent problem remains but are more unlikely. The main problem was that PCCB1 could get too hot, to this end the ventilation/cooling has been improved. Nevertheless, the PCCB lifetime after tracking cannot really be compared and estimated as the wear process is not based on abrasion and brake usage but instead on exhibition to heat and following cracks on nano level.
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yah said:
[quoteI am not sure but did you ever bought any kind of single replacements from Porsche? The equation is not a simple addition:) You might ask your dealer of choice for a quote on a single rim vs. a complete set with tires...
Do you expect that if the whole PCCB set costs 14k$ you get a single rotor for 2K?
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STRADALE said:Quote:
yah said:
[quoteI am not sure but did you ever bought any kind of single replacements from Porsche? The equation is not a simple addition:) You might ask your dealer of choice for a quote on a single rim vs. a complete set with tires...
Do you expect that if the whole PCCB set costs 14k$ you get a single rotor for 2K?
No, but till I get the quotes who knows. Maybe. Besides you'd have to be retarded to pay $18,000 and buy 4 rotors when you could buy rotors, calipers and pads for $13,000.
The info I just got from my dealer was that any failure would be covered under warranty so I'm not sure where you're getting the other part. And he's also yet to hear of a failure so it's again a non issue and just a ridiculous, rhetorical point. Like I said before it would be like someone justifying their decision to buy a regular 997 over a turbo because if the turbo's engine failed in 10 years from now it would cost more to fix. But this exercise was very informative, basically eliminated the very last part of doubt I had about getting PCCB's and would love to hit the Porsche person resposible for the steel brakes in my 997 S cab over the head with a wet nooddle. Over and out.
But in this instance comparing big reds to these PCCB's on the Turbo 
hardly. these brakes are incredible. Now unfortunately I can't say if it lightens the steering compared to a 996tt as I don't have any experience driving one...but as for the 993 C4S the 997 turbo's steering is much lighter. Of the features in my car that I most enjoy the brakes are right up there...and I find I feel the road through the steering wheel much better...atleast thats my experience anyway 
the brake dust well thats just icing on the cake 
Oct 5, 2006 4:10:57 AM
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STRADALE said:Quote:
MAVERICK said:Quote:
STRADALE said:
"The cost isn't much different from regular brake pads."
When you get standard brakes, when you do pads, they will suggest rotor
changes as well making pad replacement much more expensive in the
$2300-$2400 range. After a few brake jobs you've recouped your money! :-)
Stradale,
This is exactly what my service advisor said. Evertime you change pads on steel, you need to chnage the rotors as well but only pads for PCCB. Steel will cost more to maintain. SURPISE
Oct 5, 2006 2:19:40 PM
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This is exactly what my service advisor said. Evertime you change pads on steel, you need to chnage the rotors as well but only pads for PCCB. Steel will cost more to maintain.
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eclou said:Quote:
This is exactly what my service advisor said. Evertime you change pads on steel, you need to chnage the rotors as well but only pads for PCCB. Steel will cost more to maintain.
Sounds like you need to find a service advisor who actually knows what he is talking about.
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Grant said:Quote:
eclou said:Quote:
This is exactly what my service advisor said. Evertime you change pads on steel, you need to chnage the rotors as well but only pads for PCCB. Steel will cost more to maintain.
Sounds like you need to find a service advisor who actually knows what he is talking about.
Exactly - that's a load of crap...
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SciFrog said:
Every time I had to change front pads (996 and CTT) they also had to change the rotors (steel). This adds $4-500 ish to the brake change. Still a long way to go to reach the $10K for the ceramics. And rear rotor should last at least two pads.
Oct 5, 2006 5:40:44 PM
Oct 5, 2006 6:07:23 PM
Oct 5, 2006 6:31:08 PM
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mumbasic said:
6. lower unsprung weight - ok, but please when ordering ceramic breaks don't order full leather or sun-roof.
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SciFrog said:
Every time I had to change front pads (996 and CTT) they also had to change the rotors (steel). This adds $4-500 ish to the brake change. Still a long way to go to reach the $10K for the ceramics. And rear rotor should last at least two pads.
Until yesterday I thought the same thing but found out the very opposite is true. I thought the The PCCB system was just an indulgence but it has the potential to save thousands of dollars in maintenance costs.
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