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    Sep 29, 2006 4:44:05 AM

    ilnino
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    ilnino
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    Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Is there any objective data such as stopping power, stopping distance, fade freeness, brake pedal force needed etc. to compare these 2 systems. I tracked my 930 frequently and never 'ran out of brakes' so I am having trouble justifying the expense for the PCP's in my future order.

    Sep 29, 2006 4:58:44 AM

    FSU-997TT
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    FSU-997TT
    Loc: Florida , United States
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    Reply to: ilnino

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    FACT#1 - A replacement steel rotor won't cost 6 grand......

    Sep 29, 2006 1:06:26 PM

    Mussl Kar
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    Reply to: FSU-997TT

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    PCCB rotor life is huge. One of the drawbacks of PCCBs is that they are fragile and can crack. I don't know of any cracking problems coming from driving. The real concearn is that if you bang the wheel against the disc when changing tires, you can easily ruin the disc. That would really put a damper on your track day. $$$$

    Sep 29, 2006 2:52:29 PM

    TT Surgeon
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    Reply to: Mussl Kar

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Fact #2, minimal benifit on a 3400# street car, Walter R says you don't need it, good enough for me.
    Refer to fact #1, just can't stomach a 10k brake job in the future. I tracked the [censored] out of my C4S with the TT big reds on it, never had a brake problem.

    Sep 29, 2006 7:02:37 PM

    trip
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    trip
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    Reply to: TT Surgeon

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Fact: vastly reduced brake dust.
    IMHO they look amazing and stopping power is incredible.

    Sep 29, 2006 9:44:55 PM

    993S
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    993S
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    Reply to: trip

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    I hate brake dust so am now considering adding the PCCB option. Still not sure though. I am sure the normal brakes are more than good enough. But no brake dust is making more and more sense in my mind.

    Sep 30, 2006 1:26:30 AM

    TT Surgeon
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    TT Surgeon
    Loc: Long Island, NY , United States
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    Reply to: 993S

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Pay me 5 grand and I'll clean off the brake dust everyday!

    Sep 30, 2006 4:02:40 AM

    silverrules
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    silverrules
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    Reply to: FSU-997TT

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Quote:
    FSU-997TT said:
    FACT#1 - A replacement steel rotor won't cost 6 grand......



    I think it cost more than $6K for rotor job. I personally don't think about rotor change cost 5 years down the road when buying a $150K car. Life is too short. Get the best you can.

    Oct 1, 2006 2:41:22 AM

    TT Gasman
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    TT Gasman
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    Reply to: silverrules

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    IMO, the PCCBs probably make a marginal difference on a heavy street car with an amateur driver in terms of lap times. And $8K for a brake job is out of control.

    Oct 1, 2006 1:23:13 PM

    eclou Offline
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    eclou
    Loc: Texas , United States
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    Reply to: trip

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Quote:
    trip said:
    Fact: vastly reduced brake dust.



    Fact: there are probably at least half a dozen or more aftermarket pads that reduce brake dust by more than 50-70% when compared to the stock Jurids, with similar braking power on the street. The cost is going to be less than $200 per axle. You could buy yourself an enclosed trailer with the savings.

    Oct 1, 2006 2:38:31 PM

    drbf
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    Reply to: eclou

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    I did not order the PCCB's after I was told the brake job would be
    10,000+. I can live with cleaning the brake dust!

    Oct 3, 2006 6:45:07 PM

    STRADALE
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    Reply to: 993S

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Quote:
    993S said:
    I hate brake dust so am now considering adding the PCCB option. Still not sure though. I am sure the normal brakes are more than good enough. But no brake dust is making more and more sense in my mind.




    You should. It's not just about brake dust although for me it's really becoming a huge hassel everytime I wash my car it's about how your rims, wheel hubs, brake calipers and wheel bolts look after a while even when clean with the steel rotors. The steel rotors really create a mess, big mess. It's about maintaining the look of the above mentioned parts over time. Even if it didn't save un-sprung weight, maximize handling, look better AND need less cleaning maintance the fact that the PCCB's will keep the wheels/hubs/calipers etc. looking new versus what the steel rotors are doing to my car is well worth the money (to me anyway). I'll never buy a Porsche w/ steel brakes again. It was my only mistake this time around but I knew I wasn't keeping the car. If I had to keep this car I'd be pissed and aggravated./ My 996 turbo was nothing like this to maintain.... ps: The costs posted regarding brake pad change are chat board myth/legend and I've yet to hear of a single person needing new PCCB rotors. I bet the cost to replace steel brake pads vs. PCCB pads isn't a big deal. Certainly not more than what the entire PCCB option costs as posted by some. Plus the PCCB pads will last a lot longer making the overall cost difference for replacement pads negligible over time. But has anyone needed PCCB pads either? Anyone? Bueller?

    Oct 3, 2006 11:55:02 PM

    KJB
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    Reply to: STRADALE

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    I'll throw in my .02 even tho it's not really a good, objective comparison. I recently sold my '89 930 which had, I think, phenomenal brakes (steel, obviously). I finally had to replace the front rotors at 80K miles. Other than a set or two of pads, they needed no other work. My new car has PCCB. I am very much looking forward to not dealing with brake dust. The Fuchs wheels would look like gunmetal after a week or so. However, the stopping power is simply amazing. No pedal effort. I love them. That being said, however, the new steelies are probably very close behind. From a limited experience - test drove a 9974S - there is a difference, I think. I'll probably keep this car a long time, limited tracking, so I think it will work out well for me. $10K brake jobs? If I have to buy one in 17 years (like with my 930, and these are supposed to last a lot longer) I can handle that. After all, the car cost $150K so over the life of the car, one big-time brake job is tolerable.

    Oct 4, 2006 1:46:41 AM

    Avantgarde
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    Avantgarde
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    Reply to: STRADALE

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    You should. It's not just about brake dust although for me it's really becoming a huge hassel everytime I wash my car it's about how your rims, wheel hubs, brake calipers and wheel bolts look after a while even when clean with the steel rotors. The steel rotors really create a mess, big mess. It's about maintaining the look of the above mentioned parts over time. Even if it didn't save un-sprung weight, maximize handling, look better AND need less cleaning maintance the fact that the PCCB's will keep the wheels/hubs/calipers etc. looking new versus what the steel rotors are doing to my car is well worth the money (to me anyway). I'll never buy a Porsche w/ steel brakes again. It was my only mistake this time around but I knew I wasn't keeping the car.



    Agree 100%
    No more dirty finger nails from washing the brake dust away.
    Especially after you have washed the car spanking clean and preapre to go out and the hands would always seem to have that greasy feel...yucks!

    Oct 4, 2006 2:56:11 AM

    U Boat Commander
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    U Boat Commander
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    Reply to: Avantgarde

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    You will improve your driving 3x over PCCBs by spending only $2500 (vs $8000 for PCCBs) on PDE.

    Oct 4, 2006 3:07:48 AM

    FSU-997TT
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    FSU-997TT
    Loc: Florida , United States
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    Reply to: U Boat Commander

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Quote:
    U Boat Commander said:
    You will improve your driving 3x over PCCBs by spending only $2500 (vs $8000 for PCCBs) on PDE.



    Excellent Point!

    Oct 4, 2006 7:03:28 AM

    atomic80
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    Reply to: FSU-997TT

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Why not do both? I'm getting the PCCB and taking the PDE too. Best of both worlds.

    Honestly, I didn't get the PCCB because of the potential for less brake dust or even the looks. I got it because I felt that the brake feel was phenomenal compared to the steel brakes especially under hard driving conditions.

    Oct 4, 2006 11:51:26 AM

    W8MM
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    Reply to: atomic80

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Quote:
    atomic80 said:I got it because I felt that the brake feel was phenomenal compared to the steel brakes especially under hard driving conditions.



    This observation is exactly the same as my experience when I drove 997 (w/cast-iron) and 997S (w/PCCB) back-to-back at PDE last year.

    Those that say there is no difference between PCCB and "Red" brakes have lost their credibility as a trustworthy witness with me.

    Oct 4, 2006 12:07:36 PM

    KresoF1
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    Reply to: W8MM

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    It that case Walter Rohrl is among them...

    Oct 4, 2006 12:33:42 PM

    MKSGRM
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    MKSGR
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    It that case Walter Rohrl is among them...



    Walter Röhrl might be influenced by marketing considerations

    Oct 4, 2006 1:08:18 PM

    Wonderbar
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    Reply to: W8MM

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    I just took the PDE, where we drove hard for two days on the Barber Motorsports track. We drove both steel and PCCB cars. There is no doubt that PCCBs are more precise, with a better instant feel than the steel brakes. They took a bit of time to get used to at first, as I drove with them after the slightly softer feel of the steel ones, and the PCCBs "grabbed" more quickly. Once I got used to them, I was absolutely convinced. As I have posted before also, every instructor was absolutely convinced the PCCBs were superior, and recommended them over the steel ones.

    Oct 4, 2006 1:25:54 PM

    FutchM
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    Futch
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    Reply to: ilnino

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Quote:
    ilnino said:
    Is there any objective data such as stopping power, stopping distance, fade freeness, brake pedal force needed etc. to compare these 2 systems. I tracked my 930 frequently and never 'ran out of brakes' so I am having trouble justifying the expense for the PCP's in my future order.



    My experience after having owned a 996 with steel and now a 997 with PCCB.
    Given the choice again, I'd go for PCCB.

    Plus:
    Pedal feel much more precise and sensitive
    Pedal bite is just the same after several track laps (no fading)
    Better handling (over 20 kgs of non suspended mass saved)
    looks

    Minus:
    Expensive
    Noisy (at low speeds, til they warm up which takes time and big braking)

    Now in terms of maintenance costs, I'm about the do my 7th track day this year, car has 14,000 km and I've had the car checked and serviced last month.
    The pads are not even half way through their thickness and the disks are as new
    I've only had the brake fluid changed and repressurised which costed peanuts.

    Porsche recommends changing the discs after three sets of pads, but several GT2 owner whom I know and Ferrari CS (similar tech) are all over 5 sets of pads and the disks are just fine.

    Personally, it's a no brainer. Go for it!

    And lastly, but it's only a detail, easthetically, the steel brakes really look puny behind the 19in wheels.

    Oct 4, 2006 2:02:14 PM

    W8MM
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    W8MM
    Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    It that case Walter Rohrl is among them...



    Unless, of course, Walter's thoughts about PCCB vs. cast-iron brakes have been misunderstood, misapplied, or misconstrued.

    Could he have been talking about the overall BTU capacity of each type? How about measured stopping distances, irrespective of feel, fade, or other behavior?

    Hearsay or inaccurately applied quotations attributed to a famous person can be just as misleading as hearsay from mistaken readers of car magazines.

    I trust Hr. Roehrl's observations about anything Porsche, but I don't trust casual paraphrases of his conversations repeated without accurate context.

    In this particular case of PCCB vs. cast-iron brake desirability, my direct observations don't match up with the hearsay. Some people prefer to believe that whatever is too highly priced for their tastes is somehow not "worth it". They may grasp at the thinnest reed to "prove" their point, using a certain amount of willful misunderstanding.

    Oct 4, 2006 2:09:40 PM

    KresoF1
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    Reply to: W8MM

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    I agree with you. But there are few issues about PCCBs that are, well, not so good...
    1.Noise. Even CCMs on my F430 are noisy.
    2. Wet road driving. On recent test by German AMS reaction time on both PCCBs(997 C4S) and Ceramics on Audi RS4 were slower then on regular brakes.

    On track(dry) ceramics are always better.

    Mike, I respect you a lot, but would you honestly recommend PCCBs to 997 Turbo buyer who will drive his Turbo 90% of time in town?

    Oct 4, 2006 2:20:55 PM

    STRADALE
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    Reply to: FutchM

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Great points guys.
    After owning a 997's w/ steel brakes for over a year and the last 3 years with Carbon Ceramic's on my F-car's no doubt I'm going w/ PCCB's on my turbo. If it doesn't have the PCCB's I really dont want the car. Besides it's possible the PCCB's will end up costing you LESS $ in maintance than the steel because they last so much longer. You might end up spending money on pads for the steel set-up where you could have avoided it w/ PCCB'.s

    And so far after asking this question on 2 seperate occasions I've yet to hear from a single person that's had to replace their PCCB rotors. Matter of fact I haven't heard from anyone that's even needed a PCCB PAD replacement! Making the possibility of my car needing rotors at some point basically nill. And how much would the replacement cost be for steel rotors? Can't be cheap either.

    Has anyone got a real dollar figure for the replacemnt of steel pads vs. Carbon Ceramic pads? (not just based on what they've heard on the net) I'm willing to bet almost anything it's no where close to the $6-$10k range that's been posted and no way could that be the price DIFFERENCE between the 2. If I had to guess I bet the difference for pad replacemnt is probably around $1000-$2000. (It would be interesting imo to finally get the facts regarding this) And when/if I need a replacement I sure did get my money's worth performance wise.

    IMO it's crazy to spend $5,6,7 thousand on interior and/or cosmetic options instead of PCCB's. Just my 2 cents.

    Oct 4, 2006 2:43:51 PM

    atomic80
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    Reply to: STRADALE

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Maybe the reason why Walter Röhrl stated that the steel brakes were adequate because he felt that most drivers would not need PCCB. Maybe he didn't think that folks would be able to tell the difference. Just an assumption but what he probably does not realize is that most of us are capable of much more than he thinks despite the fact that 99% of us probably don't drive as good as he does.

    Oct 4, 2006 2:47:47 PM

    STRADALE
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    I agree with you. But there are few issues about PCCBs that are, well, not so good...
    1.Noise. Even CCMs on my F430 are noisy.
    2. Wet road driving. On recent test by German AMS reaction time on both PCCBs(997 C4S) and Ceramics on Audi RS4 were slower then on regular brakes.

    On track(dry) ceramics are always better.

    Mike, I respect you a lot, but would you honestly recommend PCCBs to 997 Turbo buyer who will drive his Turbo 90% of time in town?




    Then it's probably also true that person doesn't really need a turbo either. Point being no one really HAS TO have PCCB's but I'd recommend them even for someone that just tools around town. Plus in that case you can make the point they'll never have to spend money on brake maintance ever again. Or at least for a very,very looong time. As for noise - The steel brake set-up on my 997 sometimes squeels. I drive the Porsche more than my Ferrari but there's no doubt my Porsche brakes have made more noise than the CCM's on my CS and F430 put together.

    Oct 4, 2006 2:56:26 PM

    STRADALE
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    Reply to: atomic80

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    Maybe the reason why Walter Röhrl stated that the steel brakes were adequate because he felt that most drivers would not need PCCB. Maybe he didn't think that folks would be able to tell the difference. Just an assumption but what he probably does not realize is that most of us are capable of much more than he thinks despite the fact that 99% of us probably don't drive as good as he does.



    Of course the steel brakes are adequate and I'm not surprised to hear him state that. But the real question that would be interesting to find out is whether given a choice between the steel & PCCB's which one he would choose for his own Porsche IF he didn't have to pay. Wonder if he owned a CGT and was offered a $8k savings would he select steel brakes? Would anyone? Like I mentioned before this is more a financial question than anything else. If everyone was given the option to choose PCCB's over steel for a no cost option and cost the same for maintaince I bet 98 out of 100 would select the PCCB'.s

    Oct 4, 2006 3:03:58 PM

    Bending
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    Reply to: atomic80

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    Maybe the reason why Walter Röhrl stated that the steel brakes were adequate because he felt that most drivers would not need PCCB. Maybe he didn't think that folks would be able to tell the difference. Just an assumption but what he probably does not realize is that most of us are capable of much more than he thinks despite the fact that 99% of us probably don't drive as good as he does.



    In another video clip walter is presenting the 997TT saying "Everybody thinks acceleration and power are the most important things, but in fact the brakes are".

    Oct 4, 2006 3:12:34 PM

    FutchM
    Rennteam Moderator
    Futch
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Mike, I respect you a lot, but would you honestly recommend PCCBs to 997 Turbo buyer who will drive his Turbo 90% of time in town?



    Personally, braking is as important, if not more, than power (I would take PCCB over X51 for example if I had to make the choice).
    If any model offers carbon brakes as an option (be it Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, etc.) I would definitely go for it.
     
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