Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift? - Page1

Oct 1, 2006 1:25:23 AM

hinckley: Junior; Loc: Boston, MA , United States; Posts: 131, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006

Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

I've got a February '07 production slot for a 997 Targa4S. That gets the car to me in March or April - just in time for the spring season. But . . .

If I thought that the MY08 model will be facelifted, I'll drive my 996 for one more season and wait for the newer model. I'm really anxious to get the 997, but I HATE having the "old" car.

So I know it's been discussed, but for those of you with any sort of inside knowledge - what's the best guess? Does the facelift come as a MY08 in September '07, or as a MY09 in September '08?

Next
Threads

Oct 1, 2006 1:33:54 AM

krown05: Veteran; Loc: Florida, United States; Posts: 836, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 4, 2005; Reply to: hinckley

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Quote:
hinckley said:
I've got a February '07 production slot for a 997 Targa4S. That gets the car to me in March or April - just in time for the spring season. But . . .

If I thought that the MY08 model will be facelifted, I'll drive my 996 for one more season and wait for the newer model. I'm really anxious to get the 997, but I HATE having the "old" car.

So I know it's been discussed, but for those of you with any sort of inside knowledge - what's the best guess? Does the facelift come as a MY08 in September '07, or as a MY09 in September '08?

I feel the same way, I was planning on speccing out a GT3 or 997S this spring for a late 07 delivery. However, if there is going to be a new face-lift on the 997, then I would prefer to wait.

Next
Threads

Oct 1, 2006 3:48:41 AM

Silver Bullet: Veteran; Loc: Canada; Posts: 1126, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: krown05

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

I read in one of the Porsche rags that the facelift is set for MY 2008. It would seem to make sense, since I can't see Porsche letting sneak pics get out at this point if otherwise. Plus, 2008 is 3 years after the 997 intro.

I don't know for sure, but my bet is on 2008.

Next
Threads

Oct 1, 2006 6:15:49 AM

GRN2RSMO: Junior; Loc: NC, USA , United States; Posts: 114, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 21, 2006; Reply to: Silver Bullet

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

I decided not to wait, because it'll probably turn into a never ending process.

Time wise it makes sense for porsche to have a refresh 3-4 years after model introduction.

what doesn't make sense is that they would introduce 5 new models. targa 4 4S, GT3, GT3 RS, and the turbo and then have a refresh with new front and rear bumpers with updated lights so soon.

They should have incorporated the new front and rear lights on all these models, thats why I think porsche will release the refreshed 997 in early 2008 as a 2009 similar to what they are doing with the cayenne.

Next
Threads

Oct 1, 2006 8:23:06 AM

krown05: Veteran; Loc: Florida, United States; Posts: 836, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 4, 2005; Reply to: GRN2RSMO

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Silver Bullet, GRN2RSMO , you guys are right. It makes sense. Just look at the 996 and it's facelift in 2002. However, there are rumors as to the real reasons why that particular facelift happened, I can't help but think that it's relevance is extremely important in justifying the new facelift.

Next
Threads

Oct 1, 2006 10:40:44 AM

pride355: Rennteam Pro; Loc: iSTANBUL , Turkey; Posts: 2475, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 28, 2005; Reply to: krown05

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

I don't think facelift willl arrive before MY09 especially when Porsche has just released Targa 4, Targa 4S, GT3, GT3 RS and Turbo; it wouldn't be a logical move by Porsche. 996 may be facelifted after 3 years but it was done because of the ugly front face of the 996.
The same thing was done on E36 M3s' when the car was criticised too much by the press. BMW came up with M3 EVO in the middle of the life cycle of E36 chassie. On the other hand no such thing was done on E46 M3s'.

So having a facelift on 3rd year of 996 shouldn't be an example. 997 is loved very much by the press and the Porsche fans. Facelift isn't necessary so soon after the first release. On the other hand Porsche has just released 5 high end 911 models and a facelift would make the high end customer very angry.

This is MHO and that's why I ordered my MY07 911 Carrera S in August and will deliver my car next week.

Next
Threads

Oct 1, 2006 1:07:35 PM

hinckley: Junior; Loc: Boston, MA , United States; Posts: 131, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: pride355

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

I agree with everyone . . .

Three years is a bit short before a facelift. I think four years, like the 996, makes more sense.

On the other hand, the spy shots appear to be cars very close to production-ready. It doesn't make sense that it may be two full years before introduction.

On the other hand, how could they introduce a facelift with the GT3, Turbo and Targa just 9 to 12 months old?

On the other hand . . .

I have no idea what to do.

Next
Threads

Oct 1, 2006 2:39:03 PM

bstew: Expert; Loc: NC, USA; Posts: 1797, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 11, 2005; Reply to: hinckley

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Wow the 997 already getting a facelift. Seems a bit fast but hey I guess that is life. The problem is one could wait forever for the next change.

Next
Threads

Oct 1, 2006 3:25:26 PM

Ronnie: Co-Pilot; Loc: good old England (sometimes Hong Kong); Posts: 206, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 13, 2005; Reply to: bstew

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

I'm thinking about getting a new PC, but I hear there's a newer chip coming out soon !!!!

Buy and drive the thing already. 997 sales are still rampant and as others here have already mentioned, the Turbo, GT3 and Targa versions are only just out.

How many years have the Cayenne 'face lift' photos been circulating the web??? Yet they still haven't materialised.

Buy, drive and trust me, you'll enjoy.

Next
Threads

Oct 1, 2006 4:10:33 PM

Oxonian: Pilot; Loc: Jeddah, Saudi Arabia; Posts: 488, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 28, 2005; Reply to: Ronnie

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

I agree 100% with Ronnie.

Sports cars are expensive hobbies after all. Buy now, enjoy, then upgrade to something else (e.g. Gallardo, F430 successor)

Next
Threads

Oct 1, 2006 4:16:47 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Ronnie

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

In my view Porsche is getting on the "normal car" marketing bandwagon by doing things that sell cars and have little use or effect on performance. (quads, 19s, SC wart). Making facelifts on a frequent basis is part of that strategy of selling more cars.

At intro of the 997 the "pointy/oval" styling on head/tailights on "normal cars" was hot; so the 997 got the very-surprising-to-me pointy tailights. Now that pointy/oval trend in "normal" car styling is looking a bit tired.

My point: Porsche's attitude is different now and we'll see that facelift ALOT sooner than most would expect.

Next
Threads

Oct 1, 2006 7:51:09 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: pride355

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Quote:
pride355 said:...996 may be facelifted after 3 years but it was done because of the ugly front face of the 996. ...

Ugly?!? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The 996 came out with new headlights and so did the Boxster. PAG did change the headlights in 02 to the tear-drop design to satisfy clamoring insecure new-gen 911 owners who couldn't stand to have the same headlights as the Boxster.

As I said before... beauty is in the eye of the beholder. In my eye, the 02 tear-drop design is, let's just say, strange... I prefer the original design which I still enjoy.

And another item pride355... if you are a follower of the marque you should have known that PAG has for most of 911 generations introduced a facelift 3 years after the original generation introduction. Yes, a 997 facelift is due in a year or so.

Next
Threads

Oct 1, 2006 10:06:07 PM

outofmoney: Newbie; Loc: texas; Posts: 21, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 26, 2006; Reply to: hinckley

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

hinckley, its interesting to note that you are a 996 targa owner and are purchasing a 997 targa. I have always been concerned about all that glass and potential for leaks, squeaks etc...I would like to hear your thoughts on your time with your 996. I also agree that you should not continue to wait for the next best thing. If changes occur they will be slight. I think the major differences have already occured and that is especially notable in the 997 interiors. I love the new look. Good luck.

Next
Threads

Oct 1, 2006 10:49:52 PM

sevoman: Co-Pilot; Loc: Australia , Australia; Posts: 253, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 1, 2005; Reply to: hinckley

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

The turbo and GT3 are essentially facelifted models already. Certainly they have unique styling features, and unique engines compared to the rest of the range.
The arrival of the M3 will need to be countered with enough increase in performance to prevent buyer drift, so we may see some pressure earlier than Porsche planned.
The only problem with my "logic" is the new Targa which they surely would not change within one year of release.
Would they increase the power at a different time from the scheduled nose/tail plastic surgery??

Next
Threads

Oct 2, 2006 12:26:29 AM

Silver Bullet: Veteran; Loc: Canada; Posts: 1126, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: sevoman

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

There was some speculation that the facelift might represent a special "sport" model - this would allow PAG to introduce the changes on that model alone, and then bring them to the rest of the lineup (Targa etc.) over the next few years.

Next
Threads

Oct 2, 2006 12:56:25 AM

SciFrog: Rennteam VIP; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 9870, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 15, 2005; Reply to: Silver Bullet

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Sadly, everything points to MY09... Look how long it takes the to bring the facelifted Cayenne... Even skipping a MY... Imagine the cost of that to P. I am sure if the could, they would introduce them sooner than later, like the PDK.

The difference is that there are more choices than ever right on Porsche's turf.

Next
Threads

Oct 2, 2006 1:29:09 AM

hinckley: Junior; Loc: Boston, MA , United States; Posts: 131, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: outofmoney

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Quote:
outofmoney said:
hinckley, its interesting to note that you are a 996 targa owner and are purchasing a 997 targa. I have always been concerned about all that glass and potential for leaks, squeaks etc...I would like to hear your thoughts on your time with your 996. I also agree that you should not continue to wait for the next best thing. If changes occur they will be slight. I think the major differences have already occured and that is especially notable in the 997 interiors. I love the new look. Good luck.

outofmoney - I've had zero problems with my Targa roof. After almost five years of driving on the pot-holed streets of Boston, the car has loosened up, but I think that that's the downside of any "chop-top" (remember the Targa is based on the Cab body). But, no leaks, no squeeks.

For someone like me living in the northeast, the Targa is the best of all worlds. Although I only drive it for three seasons (it hibernates during the Boston winters), I'm not really a "convertible guy". So the Targa roof really opens the car up to the summer sky without all of the hassles of a rag-top. And most people don't understand how really cool the roof is when closed. All that glass gives the interior an amazingly airy feel.

So for me, the Targa is the perfect 911. As for waiting, while I appretiate yours and other's opinion, spending my $100-plus grand is something I do cautiously. And as I mentioned, I'm the sort of person who really likes to have the latest and greatest. I've waiting this long for the new Targa, one more year won't kill me - but two may!!!

Next
Threads

Oct 2, 2006 2:15:11 AM

Dan L: Expert; Loc: Santa Barbara, CA , United States; Posts: 1957, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2006; Reply to: hinckley

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

My money is on the MY09 cars. In 2008 the 4-door Panamera will be introduced and all eyes will be on that release. The Carrera will get a little attention getting publicity AFTER the release of the Panamera to help sales after the Pana steals a few out from under the 911.

dan

Next
Threads

Oct 2, 2006 4:19:55 AM

SrfCity: Expert; Loc: Orange County, CA; Posts: 1339, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 21, 2004; Reply to: Dan L

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

When's the 998 come out? If it is shortly after the MY08 or 09 facelift then it really doesn't make sense to wait. The facelift will be sagging rather quickly if that's the case

Next
Threads

Oct 2, 2006 6:12:56 AM

Malmsteen: Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 493, Gallery; Registered on: May 16, 2005; Reply to: SrfCity

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Quote:
SrfCity said:
When's the 998 come out? If it is shortly after the MY08 or 09 facelift then it really doesn't make sense to wait. The facelift will be sagging rather quickly if that's the case

after 998 ..then the wait for the next turbo,gt3... and then face lift of 998,,,,,,,,,,,,

so go grab one now and enjoy!!!

Next
Threads

Oct 2, 2006 6:36:10 AM

Porky Tokyo: Senior; Loc: Tokyo, Japan; Posts: 617, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 8, 2005; Reply to: Malmsteen

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Take this with a pinch of salt but a contact at Porsche told me that there is not going to be a facelift on the 997. What you see in the spy shots is development of the 998. IF and he reckons its a big if, they do have a face lift it will be MY09

They can't release the Targa and six months have a facelift! Not good business.

Porsche is dead stingy and has plenty of bean counters, a face lift for 2008 doesn't make financial sense

Next
Threads

Oct 2, 2006 8:24:53 AM

pride355: Rennteam Pro; Loc: iSTANBUL , Turkey; Posts: 2475, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 28, 2005; Reply to: ADias

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Quote:
ADias said:
Quote:
pride355 said:...996 may be facelifted after 3 years but it was done because of the ugly front face of the 996. ...

Ugly?!? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The 996 came out with new headlights and so did the Boxster. PAG did change the headlights in 02 to the tear-drop design to satisfy clamoring insecure new-gen 911 owners who couldn't stand to have the same headlights as the Boxster.

As I said before... beauty is in the eye of the beholder. In my eye, the 02 tear-drop design is, let's just say, strange... I prefer the original design which I still enjoy.

And another item pride355... if you are a follower of the marque you should have known that PAG has for most of 911 generations introduced a facelift 3 years after the original generation introduction. Yes, a 997 facelift is due in a year or so.

You seem to be little offended by what I say about 996 front lights since you have a 996, but you are right; it was the wrong word. All I tried to say was that 996 was criticised too much by the Porsche fans because of the front lights so that PAG had to take care of it by changing the lights; as BMW had to make changes on E36 M3s'.

By the way, I'm not a big Porsche fan; it wasn't my childhood dream so I don't know the life cycle of previous models. The oldest model I know is 993 and I don't even know when 993 was released.

Actually, I don't really care much about the facelift since I'll get my car next week. What I'm waiting from Porsche is PDK. Maybe that would make my mind to change my MY07 Carrera S.

Sorry for the "ugly face" quote

Next
Threads

Oct 3, 2006 5:36:24 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: pride355

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Quote:
pride355 said:... You seem to be little offended by what I say about 996 front lights...

No offense taken. I could care less. I repeat... beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Next
Threads

Oct 3, 2006 11:20:56 PM

Dan L: Expert; Loc: Santa Barbara, CA , United States; Posts: 1957, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2006; Reply to: ADias

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Porsche doesn't offer changes that often. I recall the change from 1973 to 1974 and thought they had lost their minds! Little accordians on the sides of that impersonal massive bar of a bumper? What were they thinking??

Here are the body changes of the US Market) 911 over the years:

1965 Introduced
1969 Wheelbase extended
1974 Newer bumper protection/black trim introduced
1978 Carrera rear flares for everyone!
1990 Cleaned up bumpers fore and aft
1994 The beginning of the end,--the 'new 911' a la 993
1999 Add water
2002 Change some lights, add glass to the cab window (minor)
2005 the 997 comes to light

Dan

Next
Threads

Oct 3, 2006 11:48:35 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Dan L

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Quote:
Dan L said:'new 911' a la 993
1999 Add water
2002 Change some lights, add glass to the cab window (minor)
2005 the 997 comes to light

Dan

Dan:

996 - 99 to 02 - 3 years

Please note that the 997 became available in the Fall of 04.

997 - 04 to 07 - 3 years

I bet there wiil be a face-lifted 997 next year, as an 08 model. The facelift will be very minor - nothing to warrant a switch from current 997s. Heck... only we members of these forums can tell these cars apart, anyway.

Next
Threads

Oct 3, 2006 11:49:15 PM

Neil Schneider: Co-Pilot; Loc: New Jersey, USA; Posts: 278, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2006; Reply to: ADias

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Doesn't porsche always make changes to their cars? Horse power bumps, minor body and suspension changes etc. From what I read I think MY 08 released in summer 07. If not then, I hope they hold off until the 998 model.
Look at this article about the 996 changes that occurred in 02. I would say significant changes. If the 997 follows in the same mold I think we are in for some great alterations.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=6&article_id=77

Next
Threads

Oct 4, 2006 2:11:09 PM

The Groom: Expert; Loc: EU; Posts: 1779, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 23, 2005; Reply to: Porky Tokyo

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Quote:
Porky Tokyo said:
Take this with a pinch of salt but a contact at Porsche told me that there is not going to be a facelift on the 997. What you see in the spy shots is development of the 998. IF and he reckons its a big if, they do have a face lift it will be MY09

Porsche has always had a facelift at the middle of the product's life, and this time it's no different (and I'm speaking with firsthand experience here).

A few examples:
(I'm talking n/a models, Turbo models have always been 1 to 2 years late)
(also, MY90 starts in September 89 and ends in July 90)

964: introduced MY90, facelift MY92 (new mirrors and wheels), EOL in 1994.
993: introduced MY94, facelift MY96 (new engine + widebody available), EOL in 1998.
996: introduced MY98, facelift MY02 (new engine + new headlights + upgraded soft top + widebody available), EOL in 2005

Let me get on a limb and add:
997: introduced MY05, facelift MY08 (more powerful engines + new AWD + new lights. Unsure about PDK, though), EOL in 2011

Quote:
Porky Tokyo said:
They can't release the Targa and six months have a facelift! Not good business.

Porsche is dead stingy and has plenty of bean counters, a face lift for 2008 doesn't make financial sense

Since the updated parts are not specific to the Targa, this does not change anything, or imply extra costs.
Come to think of it, we're actually lucky not to have to wait for the facelift to get the Targa, as we had to during the past generations...

Next
Threads

Oct 7, 2006 3:21:15 PM

Martini: Newbie; Loc: Indiana , United States; Posts: 48, Gallery; Registered on: May 8, 2005; Reply to: Dan L

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

My 2-cents: I believe the Panamera is not scheduled for MY09, as the plant is not supposed to be finished until the end of 2008. I'm betting on a facelifted 997 for MY08, and I am holding my order for an 08. What else will arrive in 08? Maybe the facelifted Cayenne. So a facelifted 911 would match it. The turbo cab will probably be announced this winter for spring 07. Then maybe the GT2 for summer. And I really don't think those spy shots are a 998. There is virtually no camo; just some changes to the lights; maybe a front spoiler lip that will fix front end lift; that car is close to production. I think we will see all new body panels all around for the 998, including the roof. We are way too far out for 998 spy photos with no camo. We won't see a 998 until the Panamera is out, and until there are turbo S's out.

Top
Threads

Board	Subject	Last post	Views	Replies
Porsche	SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II)	4/17/24 7:16 AM Gnil	761264	1798
Porsche	Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos)	4/7/24 11:48 AM Boxster Coupe GTS	434686	565
Porsche	OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021)	5/12/23 12:11 PM W8MM	260154	288
Porsche	OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022	3/12/24 8:28 AM DJM48	257299	323
Porsche	The new Macan: the first all-electric SUV from Porsche	1/30/24 9:18 AM RC	80830	45
Porsche	OFFICIAL: Taycan 2024 Facelift	3/15/24 1:23 PM CGX car nut	5314	50
Porsche	The moment I've been waiting for...	2/1/24 7:01 PM Pilot	871562	1364
Porsche	992 GT3	7/23/23 7:01 PM Grant	806818	3868
Porsche	Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!	2/10/24 4:43 PM nberry	386630	1526
Porsche	GT4RS	4/17/24 8:53 PM Gauss	384851	1452
Others	Tesla 2 the new thread	12/13/23 2:48 PM CGX car nut	367860	2401
Porsche	Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design	7/3/23 12:30 PM Porker	365886	797
Ferrari	Ferrari 812 Superfast	4/21/23 8:09 AM the-missile	288604	550
Porsche	Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour	4/11/24 12:32 PM Ferdie	285868	668
Porsche	Collected my 997 GTS today	10/19/23 7:06 PM CGX car nut	259005	812
Lambo	Huracán EVO STO	7/30/23 6:59 PM mcdelaug	237034	346
Lotus	Lotus Emira	6/25/23 2:53 PM Enmanuel	225111	101
Others	Corvette C8	10/16/23 3:24 PM Enmanuel	219710	488
Others	Gordon Murray - T.50	11/22/23 10:27 AM mcdelaug	166879	387
Porsche	Back to basics - 996 GT3 RS	6/11/23 5:13 PM CGX car nut	138835	144
BMW M	2024 BMW M3 CS Official Now	12/29/23 9:04 AM RC	115606	303
Motor Sp.	2023 Formula One	12/19/23 5:38 AM Whoopsy	107422	685
Others	Valkyrie final design?	4/28/23 2:45 AM Rossi	99294	219
Porsche	2022 992 Safari Model	3/7/24 4:22 PM Whoopsy	83599	239
AMG	Mercedes-Benz W124 500E aka Porsche typ 2758	2/23/24 10:03 PM blueflame	74894	297
Porsche	992 GT3 RS	3/3/24 7:22 PM Whoopsy	53145	314
Motor Sp.	Porsche 963	3/16/24 9:27 PM Whoopsy	24686	237
Ferrari	Ferrari 296 GTB (830PS, Hybrid V6)	1/21/24 4:29 PM GT-Boy	20946	103
BMW M	2022 BMW M5 CS	4/8/24 1:43 PM Ferdie	19217	140
AMG	G63 sold out	9/15/23 7:38 PM Nico997	16463	120

Crown

Forum - Thread

Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Re: Educated opinions on 997 facelift?

Forum

Boards