Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: 997 s v NEW M3 - Page1

Aug 30, 2006 7:03:10 PM

oliver: Co-Pilot; Loc: Belgium , Belgium; Posts: 166, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 16, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

I totally agree with you Le Chef, I was just thinking what the future of 911 engines could be like...

Regarding Porsche, I'd also love to see my favourite brand being more concerned about lighter cars. Consumption would be lower, thus sweeping away any sense of guiltyness about nature's preservation and air quality.

For sure lighter cars are smarter.

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Aug 30, 2006 7:12:08 PM

FLORENT KAVADAS: Co-Pilot; Loc: Corfu Greece; Posts: 264, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 22, 2006; Reply to: Haioth

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

Dear zoltan,
I liked the drifters paradise expression...!!!
Do you have any idea of when the facelift is about to be awailable

Thanks Florent

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Aug 30, 2006 7:38:16 PM

peecarfan: Junior; Loc: usa; Posts: 149, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 25, 2004; Reply to: FLORENT KAVADAS

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

i also think porsche also is loath to make gas guzzlers.
they prefer to engineer speed and performance in a different way
as far as I know,none of their street cars carry a gas guzzler tax.
BMW on the other hand sends 300-400 hp m5's, 545, 650, 770 and whatever #'s pop up these days with guzzler taxes attached.
the new m3 is certain to carry it also, as do all ferrari's
you can argue that if you can afford the car you can afford the guzzler tax and the gas it burns.
after 2 years of filling my wife's 2000 540I pig twice a week, it just got old.
I'm not one to ever actualy measure my mileage, or buy a car based on mileage,but I do have my limits.
I suspect porsche may also have their limits

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Aug 30, 2006 8:15:30 PM

rhino: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 2866, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: oliver

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

Lighter would be a nice trend!!!

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Aug 30, 2006 9:25:44 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: rhino

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

The new M3 looks to be a super looking and performing car, no doubt. But I do not see it being a potential replacement for my 911. There's something inside me, something that tugs at my sense of content and value, that makes it difficult to spend $60K on a hotrodded 3-series Bimmer. I feel much the same about S4 Audis.

When I'm browsing a showroom, I'm always drawn toward the top of the food chain. I can't tell you why in simple terms.

It's just that no matter how dressed up it is, no matter how fast it scoots, I still just see a 3-series, the entry-car, the cheapest car when you break it down to it's bare skeleton and most of it's interior pieces. So, basically, you're paying for SPEED... built onto a pedestrian platform. When I see a price tag that high, I don't want any pedestrian DNA involved, I should be getting some art and some aura at that price, which I feel that I get in the 911.

It's the same reason I don't "get it" when I see people paying $500K for a Hemi Cuda at auction, when they could have a 300SL Gullwing for that money. I like substance...

From a pure driving enthusiast standpoint, the M3 should be a stunner...

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Aug 30, 2006 9:31:46 PM

Scotty A: Senior; Loc: New Jersey; Posts: 606, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2006; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

Well, the 997TT is just a $70k platform gussied up to ... $130?

I happen to agree that they don't really compete. We've probably seen most of the debates in the universe where a person is considering one vs. the other.

The 911 is, to me as to many above, a sports car from the ground up. It happens to have a (relatively) huge engine for its size and weight vs. most cars of its ilk.

The M3 is a 4 seat sedan (or coupe). It combines outstanding performance with great practicallity. It can really be a family car, so long as your kids are young or you never take them far. In fact, when we were a two-car family and the kids were little, my drive was a 325 convertable. I could always pickup the kids from school, with a couple of friends, or drive the family to dinner or visiting in my car. The kids are grown and gone now, and (mother in law not withstanding), I don't plan to utilize the back seat of the 911 very much.

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Aug 30, 2006 10:03:59 PM

yemenmocha: Junior; Loc: Glendale, Arizona; Posts: 76, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 6, 2006; Reply to: Scotty A

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

Agree with the TT guised up to... idea, if you're going to run that line with the m3 being "just a 3 series or still a 3 series."

My goodness guys, we might as well rehearse the Porsche is just a suped-up Volkswagon series of attacks as well.

Even if the M3 is "just" a sporty version of a sedan, isn't it a bad thing that a pure sports car is on a par or behind in performance to a sporty sedan? Or should we run it the other way, and pile on the praise to BMW for making such an amazing sedan?

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Aug 31, 2006 3:15:34 AM

cibergypsy: Pilot; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 366, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2006; Reply to: Targa Tim

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

Living in the USA, of course, I've not driven an M6. Now, if one can rely on the figures attained by "The Stig" of Top Gear, I just saw on youtube.com the episode in which they square off an Aston Martin, a BMW M6 and a 997 Carrera (I don't remember if it was an S or not) and the Carrera obliterated the Aston and the M6 by more than 5 seconds on a stretch of road off the Isle of Man IN THE RAIN!!! Now, that is more reflective of a real world driving experience than the typical straight line acceleration runs that don't do anything for me at all. I like to go to track events with the Porsche Club of America in my region and all the instructors say that anyone can overtake you with more power on a car in a straight line but it is really in the turns that one proves who's a better driver or which car is better to cover ground faster. I've seen instructors in the same run group being overtaken by a 914 while they've been driving far more powerful cars. From what I hear, BMW M3 brakes aren't worth anything for track work, they just get cooked at tracks like Sebring, whereas you can take a Porsche straight out of the dealer and can rely on the brakes being there, lap after lap. Let's not compare a real sports car like a Porsche or a Ferrari with lesser machinery. Who cares what kind of power a BMW M3 or M anything will have. The nature of progress is that you improve on what is out there, once you have a benchmark figure to beat. Now, in Porsche's case, why are they always the ones to beat??? Can it be that they set the benchmarks??? Let's see what they do in the next evolutions of the venerable 911 and may it live on! I for one would never change my 997 S with anything less than a better Porsche product (or, I admit it, an F430 perhaps.)

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Aug 31, 2006 6:51:17 AM

Rico: Newbie; Loc: Somewhere over the rainbow; Posts: 20, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 31, 2005; Reply to: Scotty A

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

Scotty,

I actually think that the 997 has really moved the 911 foreward by way of practicality. Compare the back seat of your 997 to a 993... big improvement!

My back seats are "sold out" on at least 20-30 occasions (trips) every week with minimal complaints.(thats 2 grown-up asses & i ain't talkin donkeys). I'll tell ya there is more room back there than in the back of a Bentley Continental GT.. easily!

Even trunk space is palletable especially with the fold-down feature of the back seats.

I use my 997S (manual) as a daily driver & I am yet to be 'put out' by any inconvenience due to my choice of vehicle. I live in the city & face heavy traffic every day and i guarantee that in the crawling line of commuters in morning peak hour I hold the winning grin on my face.

People may have to start accepting the fact that the 997 911 is now more practical that its reputation might suggest.

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Aug 31, 2006 11:14:48 AM

Queram: Pilot; Loc: Istanbul , Turkey; Posts: 330, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2006; Reply to: Rico

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

I read the whole thread but ı do not see the power in myself to answer any of these replies. I as an ex M3 owner and 2006 Carrera 4S owner think that most of you guys are too obsessed with Porsche and making yourself not to see some real things. some of the logical statemnets here are just plain funny. It also makes me think that some of you only bought Porsche to cruise in town and show off. ı would really love to answer to many posts in this topic but I figure it will be useless and ignored in a community like this. Not that anything is wrong with that but when brand enthusiasm comes in the objectivity goes out of the window.

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Aug 31, 2006 11:56:28 AM

zoltan: Co-Pilot; Loc: Athens , Greece; Posts: 275, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 27, 2004; Reply to: FLORENT KAVADAS

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

Quote:
FLORENT KAVADAS said:
Dear zoltan,
I liked the drifters paradise expression...!!!
Do you have any idea of when the facelift is about to be awailable

Thanks Florent

There are several post about it in Rennteam.

I am invited to Targa launch and may be i wiil get to know something more about it.

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Aug 31, 2006 11:59:42 AM

Scotty A: Senior; Loc: New Jersey; Posts: 606, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2006; Reply to: Queram

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

Rico:

Actually, I find the 997 a very practical car, as I did the 986 it replaced. I drive them to work about half the time; I take them on various out-of-town trips. But that's in my situation with no kids. Before that, I felt a "real" four seater was more practical.

A bud of mine has a Continental and we're having lunch next week, so I'll line them up and compare the back seats!

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Aug 31, 2006 12:06:02 PM

throt: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 6078, Gallery; Registered on: May 9, 2005; Reply to: Queram

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

Imo , the back seats in a 997 are useless.Their far to upright and theres absolutely no lower spine support and leg room is also poor . In a general sense their just far too cramped . My boy is 10 yrs and he said they were okay but I could see different (he was just trying to please me

)

Jmo guys and girls , but I wish the above was the quite the opposite , and of course if your single , "" who cares "" ..

throt....

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Aug 31, 2006 1:41:28 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: throt

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

I try not to "subject" my kids to the rear seats of my 997. That's why I own a truck...

The 997TT is a up-performanced version of a top-of-the-line premium sports car. So, the analogy between that and the M3, which inherites its bones from a relatively inexpensive grocery-getter, is rather weak. But I knew somebody would toss that watermelon at me..

And I'm being misunderstood if people think I'm bashing the M3. It is what it is, and I've spent big money on such cars in the past ('97 S351 506 h.p. Saleen anyone?? Built from the skeleton of a V6 Mustang). So its been an evolution for me, of sorts, that leads me to my wants and desires today... Which are MY wants and desires, I wasn't intending to preach at others, just giving my personal spin..

And if it's being insinuated that I'm one of the "bought my 997S to cruise the strip" folks... Puhleez.... Dude, I put 70% of my miles on a Ford F150, and in-between that and the Porsche, I'm exercising old american iron. For instance, over the last two weeks I've been seen out and about "showing off" in the following lady-killers: 1970 Monte Carlo, 1980 Trans Am Turbo, 1971 Chevy C10 Cheyenne, '72 Cutlass Supreme convertible. Well, I'll admit, the ladies did seem to dig the Cutlass...

You drive a car because it turns YOU on... Whether or not you look good in it is distantly secondary... I'm the one who has a problem with buying a bionic grocery getter. I'm sure that around town, image-wise, people see M3's and equate them very closely with Porsche's from a shallow-image standpoint...

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Aug 31, 2006 1:47:38 PM

devo: Veteran; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 1107, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2006; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

Quote:
69bossnine said:

But I knew somebody would toss that watermelon at me..

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Aug 31, 2006 2:02:27 PM

Scotty A: Senior; Loc: New Jersey; Posts: 606, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2006; Reply to: devo

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

Love the 72 Cutlass Supreme ... I would have killed for one in the 70s. I was driving a 70 Plymouth Duster, no carpet, no AC, aftermarket am/fm radio, three speed (with a syncronized 1st gear!), 225 ci Slant Six, vinyl roof, and rust holes in both rear quarter panels. You put something in the trunk and it fell out onto the ground.

Of course, it was an uptick from my '61 Plymouth with the push button 2-speed automatic transmission, 7 cylindars (one spark plug had blown out and I never got around to replacing it), broken left rear leaf spring (got the ladies sitting right next to me! they just slid over on the seat), and front right wheel held by only 3 lugs. And since the suspension and wheels were a bit shakey, I installed seatbelts in the front by pounding a hole in the floor board and bolting some belts directly to the floor pan. Good thing it was only a 7 cyl, I couldn't actually go very fast.

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Aug 31, 2006 2:13:46 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: Scotty A

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

Quote:
Scotty A said:
Love the 72 Cutlass Supreme ... I would have killed for one in the 70s. I was driving a 70 Plymouth Duster, no carpet, no AC, aftermarket am/fm radio, three speed (with a syncronized 1st gear!), 225 ci Slant Six, vinyl roof, and rust holes in both rear quarter panels. You put something in the trunk and it fell out onto the ground.

Of course, it was an uptick from my '61 Plymouth with the push button 2-speed automatic transmission, 7 cylindars (one spark plug had blown out and I never got around to replacing it), broken left rear leaf spring (got the ladies sitting right next to me! they just slid over on the seat), and front right wheel held by only 3 lugs. And since the suspension and wheels were a bit shakey, I installed seatbelts in the front by pounding a hole in the floor board and bolting some belts directly to the floor pan. Good thing it was only a 7 cyl, I couldn't actually go very fast.

LOL!!!! Wow, you cut your teeth on some fine machinery... That's how you REALLY learn how to drive.... If you can keep an old jalopy pseudo-shiny-side-up through your formative years, you can handle ANYTHING at speed.

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Aug 31, 2006 2:15:57 PM

VGA18: Veteran; Loc: Istanbul and Tampa; Posts: 1029, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2006; Reply to: devo

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

Quote:
devo said:
Quote:
Targa Tim said:
Quote:
yemenmocha said:
Agree with Throt too, and the M3 will be noticeably faster than the 997S with X51. I own both, so don't accuse me of knocking a car I don't own. I see it this way - people are buying Porsche for much the same reason people buy Ferraris. It's the overall ownership experience that counts - the engine sound, styling, prestige, etc. and not so much top performance.

Porsche is clearly ignoring the performance demands in the HP department because they can. Not many people are buying car X over Porsche because the Porsche is a slower car. I wouldn't have bought my 997 Cab that is barely faster than my M3 if I was buying with performance and $ in mind as the only factors.

THe next M3 will have the same or more HP than the GT3, and the V8 is widely rumored to be a lighter engine than the current I-6. I would expect a serious contender for the 997S, something that blows away the RS4, and has a back seat and trunk to rub it in. As a 997S owner I think it's a little sad that the competition can make a sedan that is faster than the flagship Porsche that I own.

Even a M5 or M6 owner cannot declare they are noticably faster than a 997S with X51. Throw in some curves and the M cars are history.

Are you predicting that the new M3 will be even faster than M6? I seriously doubt it. I once drove a loaner 2006 M3 with SMG II and it is significantly slower than my 6 speed 997S with no X51.

An E46 M3 is not that much slower than a 997S w/o X51. Yes, the new M3 will, most likely, be a little FASTER than the curent M6. And, lastly, I predict that the new M3 will give a 997S a run at any track. Unfortunate, but true.
I don't like it either.

Are u serious by saying E46 M3 is not much slower than 997S with x51??
With my ex-car old 996 C4S was faster than any stock e46 m3. I tried a lot times. The m3 was always had much hp than Carrera if you look behind. But it was not faster.

If you say new m3 will be faster than m6 it is ridicilous crazy think.

. I think new Carrera S with x51 will slightly faster than the new m3. The new RS4 destroyed e46 m3 CS in all tests handing,drag,roll etc . And i saw some tests standart Carrera 4S is slightly slower than new RS4 and imo Carrera S with x51 can beat rs4 in roll and drag issues.
New m3 will be powerful but will still behind the Carrera. BMW's first subject is doing only much hp nowadays such as examples 335's or 135ti's. Thats nothing more than that.

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Aug 31, 2006 3:59:53 PM

devo: Veteran; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 1107, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2006; Reply to: VGA18

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

Quote:
VGA18 said:
Quote:
devo said:
Quote:
Targa Tim said:
Quote:
yemenmocha said:
Agree with Throt too, and the M3 will be noticeably faster than the 997S with X51. I own both, so don't accuse me of knocking a car I don't own. I see it this way - people are buying Porsche for much the same reason people buy Ferraris. It's the overall ownership experience that counts - the engine sound, styling, prestige, etc. and not so much top performance.

Porsche is clearly ignoring the performance demands in the HP department because they can. Not many people are buying car X over Porsche because the Porsche is a slower car. I wouldn't have bought my 997 Cab that is barely faster than my M3 if I was buying with performance and $ in mind as the only factors.

THe next M3 will have the same or more HP than the GT3, and the V8 is widely rumored to be a lighter engine than the current I-6. I would expect a serious contender for the 997S, something that blows away the RS4, and has a back seat and trunk to rub it in. As a 997S owner I think it's a little sad that the competition can make a sedan that is faster than the flagship Porsche that I own.

Even a M5 or M6 owner cannot declare they are noticably faster than a 997S with X51. Throw in some curves and the M cars are history.

Are you predicting that the new M3 will be even faster than M6? I seriously doubt it. I once drove a loaner 2006 M3 with SMG II and it is significantly slower than my 6 speed 997S with no X51.

An E46 M3 is not that much slower than a 997S w/o X51. Yes, the new M3 will, most likely, be a little FASTER than the curent M6. And, lastly, I predict that the new M3 will give a 997S a run at any track. Unfortunate, but true.
I don't like it either.

Are u serious by saying E46 M3 is not much slower than 997S with x51??
With my ex-car old 996 C4S was faster than any stock e46 m3. I tried a lot times. The m3 was always had much hp than Carrera if you look behind. But it was not faster.

If you say new m3 will be faster than m6 it is ridicilous crazy think. . I think new Carrera S with x51 will slightly faster than the new m3. The new RS4 destroyed e46 m3 CS in all tests handing,drag,roll etc . And i saw some tests standart Carrera 4S is slightly slower than new RS4 and imo Carrera S with x51 can beat rs4 in roll and drag issues.
New m3 will be powerful but will still behind the Carrera. BMW's first subject is doing only much hp nowadays such as examples 335's or 135ti's. Thats nothing more than that.

Maybe you should re-read my post. But, while on the topic, I'll repeat the latter part of my post and again state that i believe, without a doubt, that the new M3 will be faster than a 997S w/X51.

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Sep 1, 2006 2:29:53 AM

DavidSF: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 525, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 7, 2003; Reply to: FLORENT KAVADAS

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

I would find out how much the new M3 weighs. If I recall the current M3 is quite the porky pig. HP is no substitute for low weight.

David

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Sep 1, 2006 3:29:22 AM

stork: Junior; Loc: OH and NC; Posts: 145, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: FLORENT KAVADAS

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

Wow! Is there no end to auntomotive improvements. This is a great time for the car loving public. I had the 333hp M3 and it is an wonderful macine, but I sold it for what I really lusted for...997 C4S. I love this car more than any of the others I have owned. But, please quit making them better and better. I am spending toooo much money on the newest and best upgraded car.

Need to control my wants.

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Sep 1, 2006 1:49:48 PM

charliepug: Co-Pilot; Loc: Australia; Posts: 227, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 15, 2005; Reply to: stork

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

Call me blindingly naive, biased, illogical, but I've no regrets spending big bucks on my 997S. I don't deny there is a "poseur" element in me when driving my carrera, but don't tell me that M3 drivers don't have that proud feeling when behind the wheel of their pride and joy.

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Sep 4, 2006 11:18:46 PM

SonOfStig: Pilot; Loc: United Kingdom; Posts: 387, Gallery; Registered on: May 28, 2005; Reply to: charliepug

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

Now I have had my (997S) for almost a year I feel I have a truly beautiful machine with real soul. Yes, expressed in speed, cornering etc - but that's only part of the story.

Can any M3 owner say the same? I'm interested to hear their views.

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Sep 5, 2006 12:04:47 PM

Queram: Pilot; Loc: Istanbul , Turkey; Posts: 330, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2006; Reply to: SonOfStig

Re: 997 s v NEW M3

in a heartbeat.

I wish I could keep both but did not happen. We'll never get to an agreement on this man don't bother.

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