Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance? - Page2

Aug 26, 2006 1:29:52 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
MKSGR said:
Quote:
Crash said:
Its Tiptronic super transmission is so efficient, that it's even faster than the manual and by quite a wide margin!

I do not think that any longer

P.S.: If future Tip tests result in better acceleration times I might change my view again. However, for the time being I do not think that Tip delivers better straight line acceleration

Markus, re-read my post again and you'll see the tone with which the statement was made. Should've written: Its Tiptronic "super-duper" transmission is so efficient, that it's even faster than the manual and by quite a wide margin!

This is the tone with which my post was meant to be read

.

The 0-200 time is a bit better for the Tip, but you wouldn't notice it at all. With all that extra torque it also better be faster.

Next
Threads

Aug 26, 2006 1:59:26 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: Crash

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
MKSGR said:
Quote:
Crash said:
Its Tiptronic super transmission is so efficient, that it's even faster than the manual and by quite a wide margin!

I do not think that any longer

P.S.: If future Tip tests result in better acceleration times I might change my view again. However, for the time being I do not think that Tip delivers better straight line acceleration

Markus, re-read my post again and you'll see the tone with which the statement was made. Should've written: Its Tiptronic "super-duper" transmission is so efficient, that it's even faster than the manual and by quite a wide margin!

This is the tone with which my post was meant to be read .

The 0-200 time is a bit better for the Tip, but you wouldn't notice it at all. With all that extra torque it also better be faster.

Uupppssss

Next
Threads

Aug 28, 2006 2:23:43 PM

Frank Tan: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 20, Gallery; Registered on: May 20, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Here's the real secret Porsche doesn't want the "networked tiptronic" owners to know(otherwise, they shoot themselves):
http://car-reviews.automobile.com/news/porsche-to-introduce-7-speed-dsg-gearbox/2008/

Great quotes from the article:
1) "But as good as their current cars are, Porsche has one weak point: its less-than-sporting automatic transmission."
2) "Outselling the manual by quite a margin, this automatic gearbox was one of the first manual-shifted automatics on the market, and while it was heralded as excellent and ingenious in its day, the onset of newer, more advanced (and simply better) technology has left it in the proverbial dust."
3) "Compared to the slow, jerky, and cumbersome Tiptronic gearbox, the DSG is light years ahead and miles better."
4) "Expected to see duty in everything from the lowly (relatively) Cayman and Boxster models all the way up to the upcoming Carrera GT-based GT1 racecar, it turns out the development program is surprisingly far along, and Porsche apparently hoped to have had the gearbox completed for use in the new 911 Turbo."

Seems to me like porsche might race with this new DSG transmission. That's a far-cry from the ancient "networked tiptronic" to say the least.

Good luck to all those who bought into the "networked tiptronic" story porsche used as a marketing ploy to sell outdated transmissions in a world that has already gone light years ahead.

F

Next
Threads

Aug 28, 2006 5:41:37 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: eclou

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
eclou said:
Quote:
STRADALE said:
So which one are you, a steer?

Sure I'll be your steer, partner. I can guess which end of the horn you like to be on.

LOL!!

WOO WHOOO!!

Next
Threads

Aug 28, 2006 6:31:53 PM

Conny997: Expert; Loc: Munich , Germany; Posts: 1682, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 1, 2006; Reply to: Frank Tan

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
Frank Tan said:
Here's the real secret Porsche doesn't want the "networked tiptronic" owners to know(otherwise, they shoot themselves):
http://car-reviews.automobile.com/news/porsche-to-introduce-7-speed-dsg-gearbox/2008/

Great quotes from the article:
1) "But as good as their current cars are, Porsche has one weak point: its less-than-sporting automatic transmission."
2) "Outselling the manual by quite a margin, this automatic gearbox was one of the first manual-shifted automatics on the market, and while it was heralded as excellent and ingenious in its day, the onset of newer, more advanced (and simply better) technology has left it in the proverbial dust."
3) "Compared to the slow, jerky, and cumbersome Tiptronic gearbox, the DSG is light years ahead and miles better."
4) "Expected to see duty in everything from the lowly (relatively) Cayman and Boxster models all the way up to the upcoming Carrera GT-based GT1 racecar, it turns out the development program is surprisingly far along, and Porsche apparently hoped to have had the gearbox completed for use in the new 911 Turbo."

Seems to me like porsche might race with this new DSG transmission. That's a far-cry from the ancient "networked tiptronic" to say the least.

Good luck to all those who bought into the "networked tiptronic" story porsche used as a marketing ploy to sell outdated transmissions in a world that has already gone light years ahead.

F

Ok, there's really no doubt, the future DKSG (PDK) will be miles far away from the Tiptronic or the shifter. But it's reliably no contradiction to the FACT that two different mappings are available for manual and Tip!

Next
Threads

Aug 28, 2006 7:58:25 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Frank Tan

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
Frank Tan said:
Here's the real secret Porsche doesn't want the "networked tiptronic" owners to know(otherwise, they shoot themselves):
http://car-reviews.automobile.com/news/porsche-to-introduce-7-speed-dsg-gearbox/2008/

Great quotes from the article:
1) "But as good as their current cars are, Porsche has one weak point: its less-than-sporting automatic transmission."
2) "Outselling the manual by quite a margin, this automatic gearbox was one of the first manual-shifted automatics on the market, and while it was heralded as excellent and ingenious in its day, the onset of newer, more advanced (and simply better) technology has left it in the proverbial dust."
3) "Compared to the slow, jerky, and cumbersome Tiptronic gearbox, the DSG is light years ahead and miles better."
4) "Expected to see duty in everything from the lowly (relatively) Cayman and Boxster models all the way up to the upcoming Carrera GT-based GT1 racecar, it turns out the development program is surprisingly far along, and Porsche apparently hoped to have had the gearbox completed for use in the new 911 Turbo."

Seems to me like porsche might race with this new DSG transmission. That's a far-cry from the ancient "networked tiptronic" to say the least.

Good luck to all those who bought into the "networked tiptronic" story porsche used as a marketing ploy to sell outdated transmissions in a world that has already gone light years ahead.

F

I continue to read a lot of BS, stereotyping, and ego-macho-posturing in all of this. The cold fact is that the 997TT tip measures better than the manual. Even though a future DSG will be better from a transmission perspective, it may not be optimal for a turbo. The maligned torque converter can be used to advantage, taming the turbo lag of powerful turbos.

Next
Threads

Aug 28, 2006 8:05:53 PM

Conny997: Expert; Loc: Munich , Germany; Posts: 1682, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 1, 2006; Reply to: ADias

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
ADias said:

I continue to read a lot of BS, stereotyping, and ego-macho-posturing in all of this. The cold fact is that the 997TT tip measures better than the manual. Even though a future DSG will be better from a transmission perspective, it may not be optimal for a turbo. The maligned torque converter can be used to advantage, taming the turbo lag of powerful turbos.

..this is an very interesting point of view.
As soon as the DSG is available, we will see the comparisons. I think however, most distribution will then contain DSG.

Next
Threads

Aug 28, 2006 8:19:24 PM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Conny997

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
Conny997 said:
Quote:
ADias said:

I continue to read a lot of BS, stereotyping, and ego-macho-posturing in all of this. The cold fact is that the 997TT tip measures better than the manual. Even though a future DSG will be better from a transmission perspective, it may not be optimal for a turbo. The maligned torque converter can be used to advantage, taming the turbo lag of powerful turbos.

..this is an very interesting point of view.
As soon as the DSG is available, we will see the comparisons. I think however, most distribution will then contain DSG.

The pre-boosting of the Tip/torque converter could be applied to a double-clutch tranny, as well (with the ecu programmed to maintain rev's during gear change so the turbo's spool faster), so the turbo lag should be subsequently similarly decreased.

Next
Threads

Aug 28, 2006 8:53:18 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Pre-boosting of a motor can also be applied to a manual transmission car. There are alot of applications of this using a wasted-spark ignition system which allows near instantaneous boost off throttle.

Unless I have missed something, there still has been no proof of differing boost and fuel maps for the tip.

Next
Threads

Aug 28, 2006 8:55:04 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
Turbo Al said:
The pre-boosting of the Tip/torque converter could be applied to a double-clutch tranny, as well (with the ecu programmed to maintain rev's during gear change so the turbo's spool faster), so the turbo lag should be subsequently similarly decreased.

I understand that, but wouldn't that require heavy clutch slipping with significant wear and tear? The tip's torque converter slips without wear.

Next
Threads

Aug 28, 2006 8:56:49 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Conny997

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
Conny997 said:
Quote:
ADias said:

I continue to read a lot of BS, stereotyping, and ego-macho-posturing in all of this. The cold fact is that the 997TT tip measures better than the manual. Even though a future DSG will be better from a transmission perspective, it may not be optimal for a turbo. The maligned torque converter can be used to advantage, taming the turbo lag of powerful turbos.

..this is an very interesting point of view.
As soon as the DSG is available, we will see the comparisons. I think however, most distribution will then contain DSG.

I agree with you that once the DSG is out, it will be the tranny of choice, current turbo tip advantages notwithstanding.

Next
Threads

Aug 28, 2006 9:07:28 PM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: ADias

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
ADias said:
Quote:
Turbo Al said:
The pre-boosting of the Tip/torque converter could be applied to a double-clutch tranny, as well (with the ecu programmed to maintain rev's during gear change so the turbo's spool faster), so the turbo lag should be subsequently similarly decreased.

I understand that, but wouldn't that require heavy clutch slipping with significant wear and tear? The tip's torque converter slips without wear.

Yes, I agree, but the DSG would mitigate it.

Next
Threads

Aug 28, 2006 9:12:11 PM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: eclou

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
eclou said:
Pre-boosting of a motor can also be applied to a manual transmission car. There are alot of applications of this using a wasted-spark ignition system which allows near instantaneous boost off throttle.

Unless I have missed something, there still has been no proof of differing boost and fuel maps for the tip.

I myself wondered "aloud" earlier this year why Porsche didn't pre-boost the 6-speed manual.

And I'm sure with all the well-informed rennteamers here, SOMEBODY at some point will scan and post the ecu mapping for the TipS and manual on the 997TT.

Next
Threads

Aug 29, 2006 10:20:35 AM

W211: Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 410, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 18, 2003; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

I think I trust the hard figures from Porsche more than the very subjective Automobile Magazine which only hires part-time writers to fill its magazine without proper testing equipment.

My dealer tells me Porsche has under-estimated the demand for tiptronic 997TT and the tip model, at least in the North America, is definitely harder to get.

Newer is not necessarily better, I for one would pick the MB 5-speed transmission in the SL55/SL65 over the new jerky SMG in the M5.

I'll be picking up my 997TT tip within days and can give a comprehensive comparison to.. sorry only a 2004 E55 I owned.

Next
Threads

Aug 29, 2006 4:19:02 PM

Charlie997tt: Newbie; Loc: Bremerton WA USA; Posts: 18, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2006; Reply to: W211

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Crap, I'm losing my nerve - or becoming suddenly more patient. I'm inches away from a final decision to wait for PDK afterall.....

I have an Audi A3 with DSG. It is my snowboard/trash hauler and rainy day errand car.

More and more I'm reconizing PDK is what I want on my next Porsche. I'm old (46), and perhaps tired of shifting, tho it's fun on my 3 Porsches. My modified 993 turbo, with it's lag, then frantic acceleration to redline, requires more of me than my tracked-out, old brain wants to offer.

If PDK is as good as DSG....gosh, I'm finding it very, very hard to resist, given my experience with my A3.

Do you think there will be a "manual vs PDK" debate on these boards 3 years from now? Or, will the manual merely persist as an anachronism for the nostalgic?

Next
Threads

Aug 29, 2006 5:10:19 PM

SciFrog: Rennteam VIP; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 9870, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 15, 2005; Reply to: Charlie997tt

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

On these boards? Yes.

On Porsche orderbook however, manual will be relegated to marginal (ie <10%).

I am in the same boat, I will not resist getting the PDK TT when it comes out. So I am holding off.

Next
Threads

Sep 3, 2006 6:27:05 AM

Silver Bullet: Veteran; Loc: Canada; Posts: 1126, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: SciFrog

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

If Porsche really has mapped the Tip differently so as to make it faster, then they're full of crap. They say they are built upon a hertiage of racing and motorsports, but then they offer an automatic tranny equipped car (their flagship car no less) that is "faster" (that's their hype anyways) than the manually equipped car, and its all due to cleverly concealed digital code (ie. smoke and mirrors), all the while, screwing over the true enthusiast, since a true enthisuast would be more likely to be interested in a manual. Profit alone can be the only explanation. Another example (albeit a small one) of how PAG is full of it.

I'm starting to lose some respect for PAG, and while this has been building for a few months, the GT3 sunroof issue has really cemented it in the last few days. I can't forgive them for not offering the sport suspension and LSD on the North American Carrera or Cayman either. This is one more straw on the camel's back.

Top
Threads

Board	Subject	Last post	Views	Replies
Porsche	SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II)	4/17/24 7:16 AM Gnil	776824	1798
Porsche	Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos)	4/7/24 11:48 AM Boxster Coupe GTS	441566	565
Porsche	OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021)	5/12/23 12:11 PM W8MM	262702	288
Porsche	OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022	3/12/24 8:28 AM DJM48	260845	323
Porsche	The new Macan: the first all-electric SUV from Porsche	1/30/24 9:18 AM RC	85122	45
Porsche	OFFICIAL: Taycan 2024 Facelift	3/15/24 1:23 PM CGX car nut	5519	50
Porsche	The moment I've been waiting for...	2/1/24 7:01 PM Pilot	880562	1364
Porsche	992 GT3	7/23/23 7:01 PM Grant	815716	3868
Porsche	Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!	2/10/24 4:43 PM nberry	390853	1526
Porsche	GT4RS	4/21/24 11:50 AM mcdelaug	389878	1454
Others	Tesla 2 the new thread	12/13/23 2:48 PM CGX car nut	372096	2401
Porsche	Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design	7/3/23 12:30 PM Porker	368849	797
Porsche	Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour	4/11/24 12:32 PM Ferdie	289076	668
Porsche	Collected my 997 GTS today	10/19/23 7:06 PM CGX car nut	261214	812
Lambo	Huracán EVO STO	7/30/23 6:59 PM mcdelaug	240067	346
Lotus	Lotus Emira	6/25/23 2:53 PM Enmanuel	230203	101
Others	Corvette C8	10/16/23 3:24 PM Enmanuel	221139	488
Others	Gordon Murray - T.50	11/22/23 10:27 AM mcdelaug	169124	387
Porsche	Back to basics - 996 GT3 RS	6/11/23 5:13 PM CGX car nut	140939	144
BMW M	2024 BMW M3 CS Official Now	12/29/23 9:04 AM RC	117397	303
Motor Sp.	2023 Formula One	12/19/23 5:38 AM Whoopsy	108532	685
Porsche	2022 992 Safari Model	3/7/24 4:22 PM Whoopsy	84098	239
AMG	Mercedes-Benz W124 500E aka Porsche typ 2758	2/23/24 10:03 PM blueflame	75034	297
Porsche	992 GT3 RS	3/3/24 7:22 PM Whoopsy	53596	314
Motor Sp.	Porsche 963	3/16/24 9:27 PM Whoopsy	24969	237
Ferrari	Ferrari 296 GTB (830PS, Hybrid V6)	1/21/24 4:29 PM GT-Boy	21165	103
BMW M	2022 BMW M5 CS	4/8/24 1:43 PM Ferdie	19483	140
AMG	G63 sold out	9/15/23 7:38 PM Nico997	16579	120
AMG	[2022] Mercedes-AMG SL	4/23/24 1:24 PM RC	13679	225
Motor Sp.	24-Hour race Nürburgring 2018	5/25/23 10:42 PM Grant	11244	55

Crown

Forum - Thread

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Forum

Boards