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Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
Quote:
eclou said:
What kind of "fact" is RC's "deep throat" at Porsche? The fact that 0.1 bar boost levels differentials observed on 2 different gauges on 2 different cars with different gearing lead to the postulation that Porsche maps these cars differently is a non-sequitor. I doubt it and I have explained why. There is nothing bold about physics and engineering. The only thing that can be construed as bold is unsubstantiated heresay.
I have pointing out the ubiquitous phenomenon of boost as it pertains to gearing and automatic transmissions. If any of you might recall the last generation Toyota Supra turbo was also faster as an automatic despite a non-networked mating of engine and transmission. Shocking? Confusing? Not really. Its just science - something that this board lacks.
If you continue to believe that the tip has better low end, the only valid proof would be to dyno 2 cars back to back. The absolute numbers would be immaterial, it would the the shape of the curves that should show a higher tq peak or curve on the tip.
Youŕe criticizing the man, who told us the exact factory specs for the 997TT one year ago, when nobody else had a clue. He has informants at Porshe, but he certainly isn't going to compromise the man, who could get fired, because you're doubting him. He was told that different transmissions have different maps. You can throw all your theory at him (despite it being correct), but he has given us the true reason why the cars are equal in performance. You can doubt him all you want, but I think youŕe on the wrong forum, because there will be lots more coming from him.
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
I think RC has done a great job with the board. If you think that some constructive arguments based on science and experience are objectionable then perhaps it is you that is on the wrong board.
Let me remind you that RC also told us that modifying the exhaust would lead to heat issues. Was this also from the "source"? The "source" mind you might also not have much technical knowledge.
Let me remind you that RC also told us that modifying the exhaust would lead to heat issues. Was this also from the "source"? The "source" mind you might also not have much technical knowledge.
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
Quote:
eclou said:
I think RC has done a great job with the board. If you think that some constructive arguments based on science and experience are objectionable then perhaps it is you that is on the wrong board.
Let me remind you that RC also told us that modifying the exhaust would lead to heat issues. Was this also from the "source"? The "source" mind you might also not have much technical knowledge.
I totally agree with you on the exhaust issue. However, it doesn't take much technical knowledge to understand that a car usees two different programs, depending on the type of transmission in the car. That's why I said that regardless of your vast technical knowledge, you should at least give him the benefit of the doubt here. He's almostalways been right thus far, so have some faith.
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
Quote:
W8MM said:
I regard point 3 as cynically naive.
I am a very cynical person in nature, but it stems from an analytical approach towards differentiating truth from fiction, rather than blind and zealous love towards a manufacturer (which I would call naive).
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
Quote:
Hurst said:
Let's agree to disagree and wait for the dynos, no?
To have the dyno results be as equal as possible it will be necessary to dyno the tip in 4'th gear and manual in 5'th gear due to the differing ratios. This way the tip will be 1:1 and the manual will be .97:1
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
Quote:
Hurst said:Quote:
W8MM said:
I regard point 3 as cynically naive.
I am a very cynical person in nature, but it stems from an analytical approach towards differentiating truth from fiction, rather than blind and zealous love towards a manufacturer (which I would call naive).
Is your contention that Porsche is deliberately using up a surplus stock of obsolete transmissions born of your deep background in production line management and complicated product design engineering?
My manufacturing management and engineering backgrounds lead me to think not.
Aug 25, 2006 6:55:59 PM
- SoCalHoosier
- Veteran
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- Loc: California , United States
- Posts: 896, Gallery
- Registered on: Jun 13, 2003
- Reply to: W8MM
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
Quote:
W8MM said:Quote:
Hurst said:Quote:
W8MM said:
I regard point 3 as cynically naive.
I am a very cynical person in nature, but it stems from an analytical approach towards differentiating truth from fiction, rather than blind and zealous love towards a manufacturer (which I would call naive).
Is your contention that Porsche is deliberately using up a surplus stock of obsolete transmissions born of your deep background in production line management and complicated product design engineering?
My manufacturing management and engineering backgrounds lead me to think not.
Comparing your background in manufacturing management to Porsche's knack for profiteering is like comparing apples to watermelons.
The day you manufacture a Valentine One that doesn't include any cable attachments or instruction sets and call it a Valentine Two, then raise the price of it by $50... well then you'll be in Porsche's league.
Sorry Mike I couldn't resist.
Aug 25, 2006 7:32:12 PM
- rhino
- Rennteam Pro
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- Loc: Island , Saint Lucia
- Posts: 2866, Gallery
- Registered on: Jan 26, 2006
- Reply to: SoCalHoosier
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
for what it's worth, and it's probably not very much, here's what I think.
Does Porsche have a warehouse full of tip's that they want to get rid of? Probably not. Inventory is really expensive to hold, which is why many manufacturing companies are moving / have moved to some form of just-in-time program.
Did Porsche work to improve the performance of the tip on the 997tt? Of course, they probably were not happy with the 996tt manual vs tip performance.
Does the 997tt tip make power differently than the manual version? Seems so. Turbo's and automatics go together really well as boost can be held between shifts. Not to mention the Sport Chrono / Overboost functions and software mapping differences.
Wow, I'm really glad I got that off my chest. Now I can go back to work.
Does Porsche have a warehouse full of tip's that they want to get rid of? Probably not. Inventory is really expensive to hold, which is why many manufacturing companies are moving / have moved to some form of just-in-time program.
Did Porsche work to improve the performance of the tip on the 997tt? Of course, they probably were not happy with the 996tt manual vs tip performance.
Does the 997tt tip make power differently than the manual version? Seems so. Turbo's and automatics go together really well as boost can be held between shifts. Not to mention the Sport Chrono / Overboost functions and software mapping differences.
Wow, I'm really glad I got that off my chest. Now I can go back to work.
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
Quote:
W8MM said:Quote:
Hurst said:Quote:
W8MM said:
I regard point 3 as cynically naive.
I am a very cynical person in nature, but it stems from an analytical approach towards differentiating truth from fiction, rather than blind and zealous love towards a manufacturer (which I would call naive).
Is your contention that Porsche is deliberately using up a surplus stock of obsolete transmissions born of your deep background in production line management and complicated product design engineering?
My manufacturing management and engineering backgrounds lead me to think not.
Clearly I don't have a deep background of "production line management and complicated product design engineering." Let me elaborate on my contentions, which are merely speculations. I understand that correlation does not conclude causation, but let's just look:
1.) Porsche introduced the 997TT without the DSG/PDK in a market where all of its competitors have some sort of sequential/advanced transmission (BMW's SMG, Ferrari's F1, Lambo's E-Gear).
2.) None of its competitors offer 5-gear tiptronic transmissions that fair poorly in performance (MB's 7-gear manumatic, the aformentioned slew of other sequentials...)
3.) The 997TT recieves overwhelmingly positive reviews for its combination of performance/stability/comfort/handling prowess. However, it does not overwhelmingly trump its competition (Gallardo, F430, Z06).
4.) Historical conaisance towards Porsche's affinity towards the introduction of gradual upgrades via expensive "incentive packages" (S variant, X50/51, X73, PSE, GT2 etc...).
5.) RC's statement about different ECU mappings, providing excess boost for Tiptronics in certain rev/power ranges.
----------
Based upon such afformentioned details, one would be lead to believe that an inferior tiptronic-performer would not fair well in a market where non-6spd buyers have many options to choose advanced "semi-automatic" (or whatever you want to call it) transmissions.
Porsche, being a profit driven corporate company (as seen by the fact that it is the most profitable car company in the world, which leads to sometimes negative aspects of its production (e.g. lack of sunroof delete in US 997 GT3/RS, introduction of Cayman S @ 290hp, just a nibble below the Carrera, in order to reduce canibalization into 911 market etc...) would want to offer a competitive tiptronic into the market, no? You can draw your own conclusions from that.
I mean, I think its great for the consumer, right? If you wanted a tiptronic, you're getting a great performer (purportedly better than the manual), no?
Finally, my 3rd point was something of a witty quib, nothing to be taken so seriously. However, my cynicism remains stationary, until further developments/empirical data comes to fruition.
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
I do not understand why it is so difficult to understand that Porsche was not yet ready to release the PDK with the new turbo. The only thing they could do in the mean time is making tip cars as appealing as possible. I really see nothing wrong with that.
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
Quote:
993S said:
I do not understand why it is so difficult to understand that Porsche was not yet ready to release the PDK with the new turbo. The only thing they could do in the mean time is making tip cars as appealing as possible. I really see nothing wrong with that.
I think the manual owners would disagree with you. Why can't they get the better mapping?
Aug 25, 2006 9:37:44 PM
- SoCalHoosier
- Veteran
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- Loc: California , United States
- Posts: 896, Gallery
- Registered on: Jun 13, 2003
- Reply to: Crash
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
993S said:
I do not understand why it is so difficult to understand that Porsche was not yet ready to release the PDK with the new turbo. The only thing they could do in the mean time is making tip cars as appealing as possible. I really see nothing wrong with that.
I think the manual owners would disagree with you. Why can't they get the better mapping?
Exactly...
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
993S said:
I do not understand why it is so difficult to understand that Porsche was not yet ready to release the PDK with the new turbo. The only thing they could do in the mean time is making tip cars as appealing as possible. I really see nothing wrong with that.
I think the manual owners would disagree with you. Why can't they get the better mapping?
I AM a (future) manual owner and frankly , I couldn't care less.
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
993S said:
I do not understand why it is so difficult to understand that Porsche was not yet ready to release the PDK with the new turbo. The only thing they could do in the mean time is making tip cars as appealing as possible. I really see nothing wrong with that.
I think the manual owners would disagree with you. Why can't they get the better mapping?
Very simple reasons:
1. clutch (ask CR about his clutch in his torque monster)
2. PDK not ready
3. networked design proved during development to be very effective
4. Tip is handling high torque figures better than manual
I could continue.
I would add some last few words: when I mentioned a year or so ago (or was it even longer?) that the 997 Turbo gets the new VTG technology, some people were questioning my claims too, especially since there were already tuned 996 Turbos driving around with more than 500 "reliable" horses without problems, not to speak about the 996 GT2 which already had 483 HP from the same "old" engine with the "old" turbo chargers.
Some of you guys need to understand that the 997 Turbo is a very special car, even if Porsche doesn't seem to care too much to advertise the special features of the 997 Turbo. Of course there is a very detailled technical description available for dealers (it also made it's way to customers in a way or another) but look in car magazines, besides explaining the specs in the reviews, the ads for the 997 Turbo don't tell people anything. Why not? Maybe because the first year of production is almost sold out.
I would also suggest that some people actually DRIVE a 997 Turbo Tip (or even manual) to be able to give their opinion about these cars. Making guesses, claiming knowledge from experience with other cars or even reciting car reviews doesn't help much. Why? As soon as you read my OWNER's review, you'll soon realize that some reviews in magazines are full of crap. And no, the 997 Turbo is NOT perfect.
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
Quote:
W8MM said:Quote:
Hurst said:Quote:
W8MM said:
I regard point 3 as cynically naive.
I am a very cynical person in nature, but it stems from an analytical approach towards differentiating truth from fiction, rather than blind and zealous love towards a manufacturer (which I would call naive).
Is your contention that Porsche is deliberately using up a surplus stock of obsolete transmissions born of your deep background in production line management and complicated product design engineering?
My manufacturing management and engineering backgrounds lead me to think not.
I don't know which of the "conspiracy theory" concepts which we have read on this subject is more ridiculous:
a) that an auto company should have a "surplus stock" of a coupla years' supply of transmissions in this age of just-in-time manufacture and delivery logistics, or
b) that a company should for some weird strategic reasons hold back a new, fully-developed, highly-marketable innovative product, instead of cashing-in on its investment by quickly ramping up production and getting it onto the market as soon as possible.
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
Quote:
RC said:Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
993S said:
I do not understand why it is so difficult to understand that Porsche was not yet ready to release the PDK with the new turbo. The only thing they could do in the mean time is making tip cars as appealing as possible. I really see nothing wrong with that.
I think the manual owners would disagree with you. Why can't they get the better mapping?
Very simple reasons:
1. clutch (ask CR about his clutch in his torque monster)
2. PDK not ready
3. networked design proved during development to be very effective
4. Tip is handling high torque figures better than manual
I could continue.
I would add some last few words: when I mentioned a year or so ago (or was it even longer?) that the 997 Turbo gets the new VTG technology, some people were questioning my claims too, especially since there were already tuned 996 Turbos driving around with more than 500 "reliable" horses without problems, not to speak about the 996 GT2 which already had 483 HP from the same "old" engine with the "old" turbo chargers.
Some of you guys need to understand that the 997 Turbo is a very special car, even if Porsche doesn't seem to care too much to advertise the special features of the 997 Turbo. Of course there is a very detailled technical description available for dealers (it also made it's way to customers in a way or another) but look in car magazines, besides explaining the specs in the reviews, the ads for the 997 Turbo don't tell people anything. Why not? Maybe because the first year of production is almost sold out.
I would also suggest that some people actually DRIVE a 997 Turbo Tip (or even manual) to be able to give their opinion about these cars. Making guesses, claiming knowledge from experience with other cars or even reciting car reviews doesn't help much. Why? As soon as you read my OWNER's review, you'll soon realize that some reviews in magazines are full of crap. And no, the 997 Turbo is NOT perfect.
I always prefer to hear experiences from the owners themselves, not read them in magazines. Anyway, nobody is doubting that the TT is a fast car (like I've told you before, probably as fast as I'd ever want a car to get), but it seems that we like to get hung up on numbers. Regarding the clutch and transmission, are they really already maxed out with the current map? I wouldn't want to see a chipped car after 30.000 km, if this is the case
.Regarding CR's car, I hardly think that is an appropriate comparison. After all, he eats tuned Vipers for fun and then posts the videos on dedicated websites
. Are you planning on tuning your Turbo in the future or will you leave it stock this time?
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
W8MM said:Quote:
Hurst said:Quote:
W8MM said:
I regard point 3 as cynically naive.
I am a very cynical person in nature, but it stems from an analytical approach towards differentiating truth from fiction, rather than blind and zealous love towards a manufacturer (which I would call naive).
Is your contention that Porsche is deliberately using up a surplus stock of obsolete transmissions born of your deep background in production line management and complicated product design engineering?
My manufacturing management and engineering backgrounds lead me to think not.
I don't know which of the "conspiracy theory" concepts which we have read on this subject is more ridiculous:
a) that an auto company should have a "surplus stock" of a coupla years' supply of transmissions in this age of just-in-time manufacture and delivery logistics, or
b) that a company should for some weird strategic reasons hold back a new, fully-developed, highly-marketable innovative product, instead of cashing-in on its investment by quickly ramping up production and getting it onto the market as soon as possible.
Well said
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
Quote:
VKSF said:Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
W8MM said:Quote:
Hurst said:Quote:
W8MM said:
I regard point 3 as cynically naive.
I am a very cynical person in nature, but it stems from an analytical approach towards differentiating truth from fiction, rather than blind and zealous love towards a manufacturer (which I would call naive).
Is your contention that Porsche is deliberately using up a surplus stock of obsolete transmissions born of your deep background in production line management and complicated product design engineering?
My manufacturing management and engineering backgrounds lead me to think not.
I don't know which of the "conspiracy theory" concepts which we have read on this subject is more ridiculous:
a) that an auto company should have a "surplus stock" of a coupla years' supply of transmissions in this age of just-in-time manufacture and delivery logistics, or
b) that a company should for some weird strategic reasons hold back a new, fully-developed, highly-marketable innovative product, instead of cashing-in on its investment by quickly ramping up production and getting it onto the market as soon as possible.
Well said
Makes sense to me..the rest of the "another shooter on the grass knoll" crowd spout garbage. I'm surprised we haven't heard one of them exclaim.."I saw Elvis last night having lunch with Ferry's father doctor Ferdinand and Doctor Porsche admitted to Elvis that the 997 TT...was a marketing scam"
Elvis went on to say well doc..theres not alot of Graceintheland. With the credibility of most of the down with PAG crap and unethical business practices that porsche is railoed on... They still manage to make one hell of a ride...yeehaaa
I'm up to 5000 kilometers and I think I am going to drive the wheels off this car. You guys waiting are going to love this machine...Tip or Manual
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
Quote:
eclou said:
IF the tiptronic engine has a different set of boost and fuel maps for the engine then it would DEFINITELY have a different dyno torque plot than the manual.
Porsche first started using different (part throttle only at the time) ignition maps for manual and tiptronic transmissions with the model 964.
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
Quote:
rick s. said:
for what it's worth, and it's probably not very much, here's what I think.
Does Porsche have a warehouse full of tip's that they want to get rid of? Probably not. Inventory is really expensive to hold, which is why many manufacturing companies are moving / have moved to some form of just-in-time program.
Did Porsche work to improve the performance of the tip on the 997tt? Of course, they probably were not happy with the 996tt manual vs tip performance.
Does the 997tt tip make power differently than the manual version? Seems so. Turbo's and automatics go together really well as boost can be held between shifts. Not to mention the Sport Chrono / Overboost functions and software mapping differences.
Wow, I'm really glad I got that off my chest. Now I can go back to work.
Porsche has one big problem: they do not have a state-of-the-art gear box. No PDK, no DSG just old stuff.
Their optimized Tip is just the best they could do to mitigate this problem.
Consequently, they created a massive marketing story around Tip.
That is my personal view of the matter.
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
rick s. said:
for what it's worth, and it's probably not very much, here's what I think.
Does Porsche have a warehouse full of tip's that they want to get rid of? Probably not. Inventory is really expensive to hold, which is why many manufacturing companies are moving / have moved to some form of just-in-time program.
Did Porsche work to improve the performance of the tip on the 997tt? Of course, they probably were not happy with the 996tt manual vs tip performance.
Does the 997tt tip make power differently than the manual version? Seems so. Turbo's and automatics go together really well as boost can be held between shifts. Not to mention the Sport Chrono / Overboost functions and software mapping differences.
Wow, I'm really glad I got that off my chest. Now I can go back to work.
Porsche has one big problem: they do not have a state-of-the-art gear box. No PDK, no DSG just old stuff.
Their optimized Tip is just the best they could do to mitigate this problem.
Consequently, they created a massive marketing story around Tip.
That is my personal view of the matter.
Close from what I think.
Porsche PDK is ready but not enough reliable by porsche standards for production cars.
Therefore they are holding back their tranny until the unit will be (very) reliable to avoid warranty problems that could hamper Porsche profits.
When ready it will surely be one hell of a tranny.
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
Quote:
MKSGR said:
Porsche has one big problem: they do not have a state-of-the-art gear box. No PDK, no DSG just old stuff.
Their optimized Tip is just the best they could do to mitigate this problem.
Consequently, they created a massive marketing story around Tip.
That is my personal view of the matter.
Spin. It makes more sense to me, especially when they are becoming more concerned with cost savings. I can't even get a short shifter from the factory anymore.
If Porsche went through the trouble of bumping the tip boost, they could have easily standardized it to the 6spd as well, adding some cushion to the performance vs the competition. Which makes more sense - to be concerned about performance and sales of the tip vs the 6spd or to be concerned about the performance and sales of the model line vs the competition?
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
Quote:
eclou said:Quote:
MKSGR said:
Porsche has one big problem: they do not have a state-of-the-art gear box. No PDK, no DSG just old stuff.
Their optimized Tip is just the best they could do to mitigate this problem.
Consequently, they created a massive marketing story around Tip.
That is my personal view of the matter.
Spin. It makes more sense to me, especially when they are becoming more concerned with cost savings. I can't even get a short shifter from the factory anymore.
If Porsche went through the trouble of bumping the tip boost, they could have easily standardized it to the 6spd as well, adding some cushion to the performance vs the competition. Which makes more sense - to be concerned about performance and sales of the tip vs the 6spd or to be concerned about the performance and sales of the model line vs the competition?
Performance of the line versus the competition is just fine. The Turbo is faster than the 430 or the Gallardo, so Porsche is concentrating on its image. Its Tiptronic super transmission is so efficient, that it's even faster than the manual and by quite a wide margin! Not to mention that it can be driven smoothly, since it's an automatic. Who needs a sequential transmission with a gearbox such as this? Presto, instant image boost. Just add extra torque at certain rev ranges and the Tip will easily keep up with the manual. That has been the argument throughout this entire thread.
Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?
Quote:
Crash said:
Its Tiptronic super transmission is so efficient, that it's even faster than the manual and by quite a wide margin!
I do not think that any longer 
P.S.: If future Tip tests result in better acceleration times I might change my view again. However, for the time being I do not think that Tip delivers better straight line acceleration
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