Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance? - Page3

Aug 24, 2006 11:43:38 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002

The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Boost pressure. We seem to have found the reason why Tip is faster from 0-100 kph and as fast as manual in the upper 200 kph speed range. Porsche seems to have programmed more boost pressure at certain rev/speed figures on Tiptronic equipped cars. The difference is usually in the 0.1-0.2 bar range as an advantage for Tiptronic. I'm not talking about the maximum boost pressure (with the exception of the 0-100 kph speed range), just the boost pressure at certain rev/speed ranges.

Example: Tiptronic equipped Turbos have up to 1.2 bar in the 0-100 kph speed range. In the upper speed range, for example at 290 kph, when manual cars have between 0.9 and 1.0 bar boost pressure, the Tiptronic delivers up to 1.1 bar. Just two examples.

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Aug 24, 2006 11:48:59 AM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: RC

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Christian, excellent post! The only question is why Porsche did it? To get more SL buyers? Only time will tell...
BTW, this also mean that future PDK will not benefite from this setup. Specially if PDK will feature 7speeds...

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Aug 24, 2006 12:01:26 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Christian, excellent post! The only question is why Porsche did it? To get more SL buyers? Only time will tell...
BTW, this also mean that future PDK will not benefite from this setup. Specially if PDK will feature 7speeds...

They probably wanted to give the Tip an equal performance envelope to the manual, as the 996TT Tip was slower than the manual.

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Aug 24, 2006 12:10:02 PM

MAVERICK: Veteran; Loc: Cincinnati, OH (USA) , United States; Posts: 1145, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
RC said:
Boost pressure.

Not fair. Is it possible to change the programming on a manual car to equal the Tiptronic boost pressure?

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Aug 24, 2006 12:12:16 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: MAVERICK

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
MAVERICK said:
Quote:
RC said:
Boost pressure.

Not fair. Is it possible to change the programming on a manual car to equal the Tiptronic boost pressure?

You might want to get the dealer to load the Tip programming

. And hope nothing breaks

.

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Aug 24, 2006 12:22:18 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12681, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Crash

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Christian, excellent post! The only question is why Porsche did it? To get more SL buyers? Only time will tell...
BTW, this also mean that future PDK will not benefite from this setup. Specially if PDK will feature 7speeds...

They probably wanted to give the Tip an equal performance envelope to the manual, as the 996TT Tip was slower than the manual.

Exactly what I was thinking, Crash!

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Aug 24, 2006 12:44:14 PM

TurboBat: Newbie; Loc: Malaysia; Posts: 48, Gallery; Registered on: May 17, 2006; Reply to: RC

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Thanks for sharing that "secret" RC, looks like I made the right choice going with the Tip

Three more weeks and the beauty will be here

The wait is killing me. Hope the GT Silver looks better in person than in pics!

Lastly, looking forward to receiving your finish review on the TT

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Aug 24, 2006 1:03:01 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: TurboBat

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

There is no magic or programming involved. This is simply a phenomenon found when using a turbo with an automatic transmission that has a torque converter. The converter allows the turbo to spool up more quickly. To imply that Porsche would program the boost differently would mean that they would also have to program completely different fuel trim maps for each model, which would also require separate emissions certifications and so on. It is unlikely.

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Aug 24, 2006 1:22:56 PM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: eclou

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
eclou said:
There is no magic or programming involved. This is simply a phenomenon found when using a turbo with an automatic transmission that has a torque converter. The converter allows the turbo to spool up more quickly. To imply that Porsche would program the boost differently would mean that they would also have to program completely different fuel trim maps for each model, which would also require separate emissions certifications and so on. It is unlikely.

Doesn't make sense.
In that case, why is the 996 Turbo tip much slower than its manual counterpart?

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Aug 24, 2006 1:27:03 PM

Tony007: Co-Pilot; Loc: Leesburg FL , United States; Posts: 178, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 12, 2006; Reply to: eclou

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
eclou said:
There is no magic or programming involved. This is simply a phenomenon found when using a turbo with an automatic transmission that has a torque converter. The converter allows the turbo to spool up more quickly. To imply that Porsche would program the boost differently would mean that they would also have to program completely different fuel trim maps for each model, which would also require separate emissions certifications and so on. It is unlikely.

I completely disagree with this statement. It is very possible to adjust how fast and maximum boost levels climb with variable vane turbos by altering the rate and angle of the vanes. You WILL get the official answer to boost programming dilemma when the tuners are finished turning up the boost and maximizing air fuel timing cures.

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Aug 24, 2006 1:27:52 PM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Very informative

.

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Aug 24, 2006 1:29:56 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: Futch

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
Fanch said:
Quote:
eclou said:
There is no magic or programming involved. This is simply a phenomenon found when using a turbo with an automatic transmission that has a torque converter. The converter allows the turbo to spool up more quickly. To imply that Porsche would program the boost differently would mean that they would also have to program completely different fuel trim maps for each model, which would also require separate emissions certifications and so on. It is unlikely.

Doesn't make sense.
In that case, why is the 996 Turbo tip much slower than its manual counterpart?

Different automatic transmission (slower) and different torque curve

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Aug 24, 2006 1:33:04 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
RC said:
Boost pressure. We seem to have found the reason why Tip is faster from 0-100 kph and as fast as manual in the upper 200 kph speed range. Porsche seems to have programmed more boost pressure at certain rev/speed figures on Tiptronic equipped cars. The difference is usually in the 0.1-0.2 bar range as an advantage for Tiptronic. I'm not talking about the maximum boost pressure (with the exception of the 0-100 kph speed range), just the boost pressure at certain rev/speed ranges.

Example: Tiptronic equipped Turbos have up to 1.2 bar in the 0-100 kph speed range. In the upper speed range, for example at 290 kph, when manual cars have between 0.9 and 1.0 bar boost pressure, the Tiptronic delivers up to 1.1 bar. Just two examples.

Did you do a side-by-side comparision of Tip and Manual under identical test conditions?

BTW: Good to have you back here

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Aug 24, 2006 1:36:21 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: eclou

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
eclou said:
There is no magic or programming involved. This is simply a phenomenon found when using a turbo with an automatic transmission that has a torque converter. The converter allows the turbo to spool up more quickly. To imply that Porsche would program the boost differently would mean that they would also have to program completely different fuel trim maps for each model, which would also require separate emissions certifications and so on. It is unlikely.

The 997 Turbo Tiptronic and the 997 Turbo Manual have a different software mapping, I don't understand where the problem is. The motronic "detects" the kind of gearbox from the programmed identification codes and switches to the correct mapping. There are also different software variants for different markets. Don't understand why this is a surprise for you?!

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Aug 24, 2006 2:07:28 PM

Frank Tan: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 20, Gallery; Registered on: May 20, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

if the tiptronic is so awesome, why was porsche racing a 6-speed manual transmission in their 996 cup cars? And when they needed a faster race transmission, they went to a sequential transmission for their RSR Cup cars. I have never heard of porsche racing with a "networked tiptronic" thing, that alone, coupled with the fact that they are developing a next generation DSG/dual clutch transmission tells you all you need to know about what Porsche REALLY thinks about their tiptronics.

F

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Aug 24, 2006 2:20:24 PM

Ziggy: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1600, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: Frank Tan

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
Frank Tan said:
if the tiptronic is so awesome, why was porsche racing a 6-speed manual transmission in their 996 cup cars? And when they needed a faster race transmission, they went to a sequential transmission for their RSR Cup cars.
F

Do a search amongst older RC's posts on the 997TT board and you will get the answer.

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Aug 24, 2006 2:36:50 PM

Nico997: Pilot; Loc: Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 392, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 8, 2004; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Christian, excellent post! The only question is why Porsche did it?

One reason we could think of is Porsche willing to open the door to the PDK by making this kind of transmission more attractive. If more people is convinced by the current performances of Tiptronic today, then tomorrow selling PDK will require less efforts

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Aug 24, 2006 2:40:39 PM

Frank Tan: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 20, Gallery; Registered on: May 20, 2004; Reply to: Ziggy

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
Ziggy said:
Quote:
Frank Tan said:
if the tiptronic is so awesome, why was porsche racing a 6-speed manual transmission in their 996 cup cars? And when they needed a faster race transmission, they went to a sequential transmission for their RSR Cup cars.
F

Do a search amongst older RC's posts on the 997TT board and you will get the answer.

aahhh, i see, this is one of those snake oil performance improvements, don't ask about how it is better, it is just better because someone here says so and had some insights into some "secrets" that the rest of the world is oblivious to.

I have learnt my lesson with my 996's so called flat-bottom wet sumped engine. All the while, porsche was racing with the 964 split crankcase while selling customers like me the flat-bottom engine. If porsche is not racing with it, it is not worth any sports car enthusiast's time. That's my take. I will change my take when porsche starts racing and winning with tiptronics.

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Aug 24, 2006 2:43:53 PM

rhino: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 2866, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: Frank Tan

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Porsche is not racing with turbos either, it uses GT3's. The Turbo is not a purpose built race car like the GT3, but then again everyone is entitled to thier own oppinion

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Aug 24, 2006 2:45:52 PM

SoCalHoosier: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 896, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 13, 2003; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Christian, excellent post! The only question is why Porsche did it? To get more SL buyers? Only time will tell...
BTW, this also mean that future PDK will not benefite from this setup. Specially if PDK will feature 7speeds...

Well if I were Porsche... I'd have done it to sell as much of my out-going tiptronic as possible.
Maybe Porsche really can make cars out of mud.

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Aug 24, 2006 3:10:06 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: SoCalHoosier

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Torque converters are well known to allow improved boost spool due to the "pre-loading" of energy in the torque converter. There is nothing magical about this. It is like you are arguing about the spectacular phenomenon of the earth's rotation. Ask anyone who has some mechanical engineering backround.

Also, shorter gearing does not allow boost to build as well in the lower gears. The gearing of the 6 spd is shorter than the 5spd tip.

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Aug 24, 2006 3:37:04 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: rhino

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
rhino said:
Porsche is not racing with turbos either, it uses GT3's. The Turbo is not a purpose built race car like the GT3, but then again everyone is entitled to thier own oppinion

Good point.
It will be interesting to see what tuners develop.
After going back and forth first wanting stick then tip I'm going w/ the 6 speed. I think I'll get bored with the tip.

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Aug 24, 2006 3:55:41 PM

roadtrip: Veteran; Loc: new mexico, usa; Posts: 1172, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2006; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

i like my 6spd. short shift. it's more fun than my last p-car that was a tip.

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Aug 24, 2006 4:19:35 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: eclou

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
eclou said:
Torque converters are well known to allow improved boost spool due to the "pre-loading" of energy in the torque converter. There is nothing magical about this. It is like you are arguing about the spectacular phenomenon of the earth's rotation. Ask anyone who has some mechanical engineering backround.

Also, shorter gearing does not allow boost to build as well in the lower gears. The gearing of the 6 spd is shorter than the 5spd tip.

Since you repeated exactly what you said a few posts earlier, I do the same:

The 997 Turbo Tiptronic and the 997 Turbo Manual have a different software mapping, I don't understand where the problem is. The motronic "detects" the kind of gearbox from the programmed identification codes and switches to the correct mapping. There are also different software variants for different markets. Don't understand why this is a surprise for you?!

OK?!

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Aug 24, 2006 4:28:09 PM

U Boat Commander: Veteran; Loc: Los Angeles, CA; Posts: 1250, Gallery; Registered on: May 8, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

If that's the case, then it should be relatively simple to make the 6 speed faster than the tip just by changing the software. Again, I am not convinced by the "tip faster than manual" argument. It's just software. And the tuners will quickly have a solution.

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Aug 24, 2006 4:28:44 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Frank Tan

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
Frank Tan said:
aahhh, i see, this is one of those snake oil performance improvements, don't ask about how it is better, it is just better because someone here says so and had some insights into some "secrets" that the rest of the world is oblivious to.

IF you would have searched for my "explenation", you wouldn't have posted such crap, sorry to say that.
I never understand why people compare a street sportscar with a track car or even a race car, this is pretty much useless. The 997 Turbo beats the 997 GT3 almost on every street/track, performance-wise (even on twists and turns if you "delete" the semi-slicks from the GT3) and especially on the straights. But that's not the point.

Why is the Tip better than manual? Well: define "better".
Tip is faster, Tip is "less" involving and allows experienced drivers to achieve incredible speeds in twists and turns since you can keep both hands on the steering wheel and concentrate on throttle/brake operation only.
Manual is more involving (for those who need it), it is probably better for most tracks since the additional involvement allows you to squeeze as much speed as possible from twists and turns but only if you're a professional driver. Both claims sound contradictory but they aren't.

For a more profound and detailled explenation, please search for my older posts, I repeated myself again and again, it shouldn't be difficult to find them.

And before you continue to argue with me: drive a 997 Turbo Tip equipped car for more than 10 minutes and tell me what you think, especially about the fast-back function.

But yeah...I know...manual is for men, automatic is for pussies...

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Aug 24, 2006 4:30:16 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: RC

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
RC said:
Since you repeated exactly what you said a few posts earlier, I do the same:

The 997 Turbo Tiptronic and the 997 Turbo Manual have a different software mapping, I don't understand where the problem is. The motronic "detects" the kind of gearbox from the programmed identification codes and switches to the correct mapping. There are also different software variants for different markets. Don't understand why this is a surprise for you?!

OK?!

You are trying to assign some special meaning to a normal phenomenon. That is all I am trying to explain.

Change the 5spd to a 4spd, the motor will build even more boost in the lower gears. Conversely, put a 7spd in and it will build less boost. Add a torque converter with a higher stall and it will build more boost. Use a converter with less stall or a DSG with no converter and it will build less boost.

If you do not understand these concepts then I would suggest educating yourself about it before chanting your same opine over and over again.

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Aug 24, 2006 4:53:14 PM

Frank Tan: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 20, Gallery; Registered on: May 20, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

RC,
read some of my posts and you will know that i sampled a lot of cars (gt3 cups, f430, 360cs, M5 SMG, etc...) and their transmission before eventually picking up a stradale. So, i understand and agree with having both hands on the wheel, concentrating on turns, etc... But imho, ferrari's F1 and porsche's sequential trans, as examples, are light years ahead of tiptronics. Ferrari is racing with their F1 trans and that is what i want in my stradale. If porsche is racing with a sequential or 6-speed(pre- 04 gt3 cup cars), then, that is what i want in my porsche.

My point is simple: Sell me what you race with, albeit modified a little for street use. That's all.

F

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Aug 24, 2006 4:53:25 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: eclou

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
eclou said:

If you do not understand these concepts then I would suggest educating yourself about it before chanting your same opine over and over again.

You repeat yourself and did it again a few weeks ago regarding my VTG posts. If the VTG technology and everything was that simple, everybody would do it.
In theory, things sound nice. You're always mixing up mechanical stuff with electronics, etc.
The 997 Turbo follows a completely new concept of a networked design, including for the first time the turbo chargers and the AWD. As long as you don't understand this, there is no way you can argue with me.

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Aug 24, 2006 5:01:33 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: eclou

Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

Quote:
eclou said:
Quote:
RC said:
Since you repeated exactly what you said a few posts earlier, I do the same:

The 997 Turbo Tiptronic and the 997 Turbo Manual have a different software mapping, I don't understand where the problem is. The motronic "detects" the kind of gearbox from the programmed identification codes and switches to the correct mapping. There are also different software variants for different markets. Don't understand why this is a surprise for you?!

OK?!

You are trying to assign some special meaning to a normal phenomenon. That is all I am trying to explain.

Change the 5spd to a 4spd, the motor will build even more boost in the lower gears. Conversely, put a 7spd in and it will build less boost. Add a torque converter with a higher stall and it will build more boost. Use a converter with less stall or a DSG with no converter and it will build less boost.

If you do not understand these concepts then I would suggest educating yourself about it before chanting your same opine over and over again.

eclou,
if Christian says that Porsche uses a different map for each transmission, I'm inclined to believe him, even though your knowledge of these matters is certainly impressive. Don't forget that he has contacts at Porsche, which disclose a lot of information. Tell me, why isn't the old 996TT Tip as fast as the manual? It's basically the same transmission, but it's SLOWER up to 200 km/h, instead of being faster, as is the case with the 997TT Tip. Is there anything, theory-wise, that I'm missing here?

Frank Tan:
If you really believe Ferrari is racing the transmission you have in your car, you would probably be very disappointed of you found out the truth. None of the manufacturers does, be it F, P or AM.

RC,

temper

...

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