Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Manual vs Tip Performance - Page1

Jul 7, 2006 4:17:21 PM

Pink Panther: Pilot; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 363, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 4, 2005

Manual vs Tip Performance

I spoke to my dealer about the difference in performance between the Manual and Tiptronic. He gave a different reason to that stated in tghe FAQ in this board. He stated that the gearing on the tip means you can reach 100kph in 1st gear whereas in the manual you need to change to 2nd before you reach this speed.

If this is true, the implications are that in gear acceleration would be identical or possibly better in the manual (no torque converter)

Any opinions on this snippet vs the FAQ:

Is it true that the Tiptronic version of the 997 Turbo accelerates faster than the manual version from 0-100, 0-160 and 0-200 kph (62 mph, 100 mph and 125 mph)?
Yes, this is absolutely true. Due to the new VTG charger and improved networked black box technology, not to mention some direct mechanical and electronics improvements on the Tiptronic gearbox itself, the Tiptronic version of the 997 Turbo is 0.2 seconds faster from 0-100 kph, 0.6 seconds faster from 0-160 kph and 0.6 seconds faster from 0-200 kph compared to the manual version.

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Jul 7, 2006 6:20:08 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: Manual vs Tip Performance

That's not the reason or the manual would start to be faster to 200kph. The real reason seems to be that Porsche wanted the Tip to be faster for marketing reasons, so Tip produces more boost and holds overboost longer than with the 6spd.

6spd should be faster when/if a tuner can level the playing field with respect to boost levels...

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Jul 7, 2006 10:19:28 PM

polo: Senior; Loc: France; Posts: 539, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 26, 2006; Reply to: Grant

Re: Manual vs Tip Performance

I believe that Porsche didn't intend to make tip faster. However, like pink panther mentioned higher gearing in first gear combines with preboost that mention EVO review makes tip faster. They argued that the preboost advantage that tip gets from the starts the manual can't catch up for the lost time at the start. For me it makes very much sense.

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Jul 7, 2006 10:34:15 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: polo

Re: Manual vs Tip Performance

Quote:
polo said:
I believe that Porsche didn't intend to make tip faster. However, like pink panther mentioned higher gearing in first gear combines with preboost that mention EVO review makes tip faster. They argued that the preboost advantage that tip gets from the starts the manual can't catch up for the lost time at the start. For me it makes very much sense.

Then why does the Tip allow for unlimited overboost, while the manual cuts off after 10sec? Also, seems like the boost levels are a little higher on the Tip cars (especially at high speeds), from what I read here...

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Jul 8, 2006 3:42:59 AM

Jeff (in SF): Pilot; Loc: SF, CA, USA , United States; Posts: 340, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 13, 2003; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: Manual vs Tip Performance

Maybe I'm getting old but I remember at least a few articles from as far back as the 80's when "Turbo" was applied to almost anything to make it a sports/sporty car. Turbocharging has always favored automatic transmissions. Why? Boost, plain and simple. If your foot is off the gas, you're not generating as much exhaust gases which power the turbo's impeller. The weight and design of some/many automatic transmissions could provide an equal or worse, offset to the benefits of being able to keep your foot to the floor and provide the turbo with the gases needed to keep it 'on boost' however. That said, I suspect you'd see similar differences in other cars as well given the advances in transmission design but in today's market, turbocharging isn't nearly as common with Porsche pretty much the only mfg applying it to a gas powered car. Most if not all other cars w/ turbos today are diesels. Any lurking physicists or engineers care to weigh in?

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Jul 8, 2006 4:16:40 AM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: Manual vs Tip Performance

Quote:
Pink Panther said:
I spoke to my dealer about the difference in performance between the Manual and Tiptronic. ... He stated that the gearing on the tip means you can reach 100kph in 1st gear

I doubt that 60MPH can be reached in 1st gear, but even if it can, the main advantage of the turbo's tip on straight line acceleration, is its ability to do full power shifts and lose no momentum, which a manual (I do not care how fast one is) will always have.

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Jul 8, 2006 7:19:14 AM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: ADias

Re: Manual vs Tip Performance

Quote:
ADias said:the main advantage of the turbo's tip on straight line acceleration, is its ability to do full power shifts and lose no momentum, which a manual (I do not care how fast one is) will always have.

Then why was the Tip version of the 996TT slower than 6spd?

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Jul 8, 2006 7:50:48 AM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: Manual vs Tip Performance

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
ADias said:the main advantage of the turbo's tip on straight line acceleration, is its ability to do full power shifts and lose no momentum, which a manual (I do not care how fast one is) will always have.

Then why was the Tip version of the 996TT slower than 6spd?

Good point! PAG finally optimized the tranny control, as RC said often, in a way that a manual can never be. With that optimization, my argument is then valid - full power shifting.

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Jul 8, 2006 3:32:58 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: ADias

Re: Manual vs Tip Performance

Quote:
ADias said:
Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
ADias said:the main advantage of the turbo's tip on straight line acceleration, is its ability to do full power shifts and lose no momentum, which a manual (I do not care how fast one is) will always have.

Then why was the Tip version of the 996TT slower than 6spd?

Good point! PAG finally optimized the tranny control, as RC said often, in a way that a manual can never be. With that optimization, my argument is then valid - full power shifting.

Well, I agree that they have made improvements to the Tip (mechanically) and the way it is networked electronically, but I really think they have intentionally provided more boost for longer periods to the Tip version.

How do you explain the reports from the field that the Tip has unlimited overboost (10 sec limit on 6spd) and seems to hold higher boost levels at high speed?

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Jul 8, 2006 3:47:46 PM

CF: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Florida , United States; Posts: 1113, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 30, 2003; Reply to: Grant

Re: Manual vs Tip Performance

1st gear/ max speed 77 km/h Tiptronic

There's no difference in overboost programming between manual and Tip, 10 sec on both.

The arrow might be there, but no more than 10 seconds of 1.1-1.2 bar in any case.

Tiptronic doesn't loose boost pressure between gearshifts, that's the reason it's faster than manual.

It's as simple as that.

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Jul 8, 2006 7:04:13 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: CF

Re: Manual vs Tip Performance

Quote:
CF said:
1st gear/ max speed 77 km/h Tiptronic

There's no difference in overboost programming between manual and Tip, 10 sec on both.

The arrow might be there, but no more than 10 seconds of 1.1-1.2 bar in any case.

Tiptronic doesn't loose boost pressure between gearshifts, that's the reason it's faster than manual.

It's as simple as that.

OK, here we go, just as I thought - tip 1st gear goes to 48MPH, therefore to hit 60MPH there's a shift to 2nd gear.

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Jul 8, 2006 10:56:19 PM

Pink Panther: Pilot; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 363, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 4, 2005; Reply to: ADias

Re: Manual vs Tip Performance

Thanks for squashing the false rumour.

The real question should be "is there an appreciable difference in buying tip over manual? Would I feel the difference? If I selected 2nd in both cars for an overtaking manouvre would manual be faster? ie no torque convertor.

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Jul 8, 2006 11:39:05 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: Manual vs Tip Performance

Quote:
Pink Panther said:
Thanks for squashing the false rumour.

The real question should be "is there an appreciable difference in buying tip over manual? Would I feel the difference? If I selected 2nd in both cars for an overtaking manouvre would manual be faster? ie no torque convertor.

There is no torque converter in 2nd gear, only on 1st for launch.

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Jul 10, 2006 8:00:08 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59581, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: CF

Re: Manual vs Tip Performance

Quote:
CF said:
It's as simple as that.

Still wondering though why some owners make claims that the arrow on their manual operated 997 TT disappears after 10 seconds.

Maybe because these people haven't driven a 997 Turbo?!

There has been a rumor that the arrow programming may be faulty but this wouldn't explain why it disappears on some cars and on some others it doesn't.

Still waiting for a direct manual vs. Tip comparison, maybe in August if we're lucky.

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Jul 10, 2006 8:02:59 AM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: Manual vs Tip Performance

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
CF said:
It's as simple as that.

Still wondering though why some owners make claims that the arrow on their manual operated 997 TT disappears after 10 seconds. Maybe because these people haven't driven a 997 Turbo?! There has been a rumor that the arrow programming may be faulty but this wouldn't explain why it disappears on some cars and on some others it doesn't.

Still waiting for a direct manual vs. Tip comparison, maybe in August if we're lucky.

I'd say the arrow doesn't matter. The easiest way to establish what's going on is to take the car on a nice, flat stretch of road and record an accelefation run with SC on and off, then look at the boost pressures.

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Jul 10, 2006 8:14:29 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59581, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Crash

Re: Manual vs Tip Performance

Quote:
Crash said:
I'd say the arrow doesn't matter. The easiest way to establish what's going on is to take the car on a nice, flat stretch of road and record an accelefation run with SC on and off, then look at the boost pressures.

This is actually one of the more difficult ways.

The easiest way is to (manually) change into 5th gear (Tiptronic) at a very low speed (~60 for example) and fully accelerate, both with SC on and off.
And each time I'm getting more boost with SC, even after 10 seconds. This is still a mystery to me but we're working on it. Btw: CF's car was as fast as mine, so there is no "manipulation" or "anomaly" on my car like somebody else suggested in an older post.

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Jul 10, 2006 9:45:03 AM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: Manual vs Tip Performance

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
CF said:
It's as simple as that.

Still wondering though why some owners make claims that the arrow on their manual operated 997 TT disappears after 10 seconds. Maybe because these people haven't driven a 997 Turbo?! There has been a rumor that the arrow programming may be faulty but this wouldn't explain why it disappears on some cars and on some others it doesn't.

Still waiting for a direct manual vs. Tip comparison, maybe in August if we're lucky.

I will drive a 997TT Manual (the dealer said it will have SC...) on Friday, and will also see after the little arrow

BTW: Would the following test procedure be fine: I floor the throttle at around 100kph in 6th gear and keep it fully pressed for 20 seconds or so; during those 20 seconds I check whether the arrow disappears?

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Jul 10, 2006 10:20:10 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Manual vs Tip Performance

Is there any chance that the overboost working "overtime" is effected by gear choice and velocity? - like flooring the gas at 50mph in 5th gear? Instead of being in a lower gear at 50mph and the over time would not occur maybe?

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Jul 10, 2006 10:39:31 AM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Manual vs Tip Performance

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Is there any chance that the overboost working "overtime" is effected by gear choice and velocity? - like flooring the gas at 50mph in 5th gear? Instead of being in a lower gear at 50mph and the over time would not occur maybe?

That was basically the concern behind my question: does it make a difference whether I test overboost in low/mid range revs vs. high revs

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Jul 10, 2006 11:46:35 AM

pierre: Veteran; Loc: there , Switzerland; Posts: 1192, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 7, 2002; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Manual vs Tip Performance

Quote:
MKSGR said:
BTW: Would the following test procedure be fine: I floor the throttle at around 100kph in 6th gear and keep it fully pressed for 20 seconds or so; during those 20 seconds I check whether the arrow disappears?

That's exactly what I did several times from 60 and 80 kph. (on small country roads...)

Let us know what you get!

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Jul 10, 2006 12:38:28 PM

Alan(NJ): Pilot; Loc: Paramus NJ USA; Posts: 403, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 29, 2002; Reply to: RC

for me, 4 possibilities

since I thought the arrow disappeared after 10 secs:

1) I don't own a 997tt - not correct - you can tell by the huge smile on my face everytime I come back from a drive
2) When I thought I held for more than 10 secs, I really didn't - possible - things happen so fast on overboost that I really wasn't watching the time carefully
3) I unconsciously lifted off the pedal in order to save my license - possible - maybe my survival instinct took over
4) I was right - perhaps after 10 secs, the arrow disappeared - not so sure anymore becuase of other posters and aforementioned possibilities

One thing I am sure of is that the arrow disappears if you lift off the accelerator in a manual equipped car. - not sure about my 10 sec disappearing arrow claim.

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Jul 10, 2006 4:15:00 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59581, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Alan(NJ)

Re: for me, 4 possibilities

Quote:
Alan(NJ) said:
since I thought the arrow disappeared after 10 secs:

1) I don't own a 997tt - not correct - you can tell by the huge smile on my face everytime I come back from a drive
2) When I thought I held for more than 10 secs, I really didn't - possible - things happen so fast on overboost that I really wasn't watching the time carefully
3) I unconsciously lifted off the pedal in order to save my license - possible - maybe my survival instinct took over
4) I was right - perhaps after 10 secs, the arrow disappeared - not so sure anymore becuase of other posters and aforementioned possibilities

One thing I am sure of is that the arrow disappears if you lift off the accelerator in a manual equipped car. - not sure about my 10 sec disappearing arrow claim.

Alan, relax.

I KNOW that you're no fake, Nessie is still playing with your little gift and maybe you would be delighted to hear that she's a pretty clever girl, she is the only one entering school at age 5 from her Kindergarten group.

To get back to the car: please pay attention what happens when you have the chance to regarding the arrow and how long it stays on when you keep the throttle fully pressed (I know this is difficult in the US due to speed limits). It would be really important. I had a manual Turbo with me in Nuernberg but I was dumb enough not to ask about the overboost thingie.

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for me, 4 possibilities

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