Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline - Page1

Jul 6, 2006 12:01:18 AM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3993, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: RonnieC6Z

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Quote:
RonnieC6Z said:Here in the US (Porsches #1 target market), generally speaking, Vettes are driven by guys that love speed, performance and balls-to-the-wall thrills, and Porsches are driven by exactly what I stated above.

Ronnie,

You should quit while you're ahead

I have an interesting collection of "customer" stories assembled over the past 20 or 30 years, stereotyped by car ownership (and occupation). These stories were collected by my telephone sales agents who were of all types, sex, color, disposition, and so forth, numbering in the nearly 100 different individuals.

Of the "memorable" customer contacts (discounting those who were probably clinically insane), I don't think you would be proud of the Corvette contingent as remembered by my staff at two different companies over the years.

That is not to say many or all Corvette customers were bad or weird guys, but the extreme examples seemed to follow a pretty tight pattern.

Watch out if you're trying out stereotypes because one could come back to bite you

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Jul 6, 2006 12:02:19 AM

JMShrink: Pilot; Loc: California; Posts: 395, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 12, 2005; Reply to: RC

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Quote:
RC said:
Well, all I can tell you is that in Germany's past, Vettes were driven by pimps.

LOL!

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Jul 6, 2006 12:02:21 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: RonnieC6Z

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

I heard one C5 Vette rattle so bad it drove all of the snakes out of Texas. There was not enough double sided 3M sticky tape in America to fix it...but the C6 is a different animal, its much better made, tighter.

And for the record, Porsche made plenty of Bow Wows in its past also, 924-44-68. And only Porsche ever made a car where the entire rear window would pop off (early 993), cars with no head gaskets (early 964's) and cars with mysterious coolant and rms issues, oh and power steering pumps that bake and break on the track - 986/987's. soo
all companies have their ...mortal sins!

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Jul 6, 2006 12:04:30 AM

Jeff (in SF): Pilot; Loc: SF, CA, USA , United States; Posts: 340, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 13, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Admit it

Quote:
nberry said:
I always make time for Porsche because it is a study in GLUTTONY .

I find that statement pretty ironic coming from a Ferrari driving lawyer in La Jolla, CA

That said, if Porsche's tactics & philosophy were raping & pillaging customers as much as you think, why does their business continue to grow? Either people are becoming less intelligent and fall victim to Porsche's sales strategies OR Porsche is indeed building cars that meet the needs/wants of a larger number of customers. Consider that only 15 years ago (pre Boxster and around the first Gulf War), Porsche was on the brink of bankruptcy. Say what you will but Wiedeking is a fantastic business man and turned the company around in an impressive way. Montezemolo is also a great businessman and his drive to improve Ferrari's quality was prescient and critical to the brand's success today. Face it - if Ferrari's quality levels were the same as past years, the demand wouldn't be what it is given the strides of other car makes.

Interesting and balanced perspective on the Turbo in this article from Top Gear's website.

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Jul 6, 2006 12:05:38 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

All of this customer sterotyping should be put onto the DR. Phil show. He owns a new Z06 so he should know what the mental issues are!

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Jul 6, 2006 12:08:20 AM

Apex Seeker: Junior; Loc: Vegas; Posts: 75, Gallery; Registered on: May 30, 2006; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
I heard one C5 Vette rattle so bad it drove all of the snakes out of Texas. There was not enough double sided 3M sticky tape in America to fix it...but the C6 is a different animal, its much better made, tighter.

And for the record, Porsche made plenty of Bow Wows in its past also, 924-44-68. And only Porsche ever made a car where the entire rear window would pop off (early 993), cars with no head gaskets (early 964's) and cars with mysterious coolant and rms issues, oh and power steering pumps that bake and break on the track - 986/987's. soo
all companies have their ...mortal sins!

JimFlat6, you are hilarious. I get a good laugh out of your posts and it is obvious that you just wait for someone to post something that you can make light of. It certainly makes some of the bantering back and forth entertaining.

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Jul 6, 2006 12:18:58 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: Apex Seeker

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Thank you Apex

I never have to wait for too long here.

Jim

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Jul 6, 2006 12:31:32 AM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: RonnieC6Z

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Quote:
RonnieC6Z said:Funny...you did not ask RC the same question when he said that Pimps drive Vettes in Germany.

Why don't you answer my question?

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Jul 6, 2006 1:36:20 AM

DavidSF: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 525, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 7, 2003; Reply to: Crash

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Granted this isn't a comparison between the C6Z and 997TT, whenever I see a Corvette vs. 911 comparision post I can't help but recall the words from the Car & Driver comparison test between the C6 vs. 997: "There is, however, a numbness to the chassis that was especially apparent when compared with the Porsche, and that cost the Vette some points."

Yes, the Corvette has a numb chassis. That's a deal breaker for me, no matter how fast it is. I don't care if it does 0 - 60 in 3 seconds. Numb chassis is the worst thing you can say about a sports car. In fact, I could argue the C6 isn't a real sports car because of it.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/8774/almost-supercars.html

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Jul 6, 2006 1:58:08 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: DavidSF

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

As per the article cited..

"At 60 mph, the Porsche's 4.3-second time is only 0.2 second slower than the Vette's, but at 150, the gap is 3.5 seconds.

The 911, therefore, needed a major handling advantage to outrun the Vette at GingerMan. No such trump card arose. Like most recent 911s, this one predominantly understeers, so in GingerMan's long corners, we had to wait seemingly forever to put the power down and accelerate out of the turns. The 911's best lap time of 1:37.95 was 2.3 seconds slower than the Vette's. That's an eternity in road racing."

Thats pretty good for numb

You can dial out a lot of the "numb" for relatively little cost compared to modding a 997. But even "numb" the non Z06 standard vette just crushes a 997S on a track and that is where sports cars go.

I have my suggestions for Porsche, but they are too stubborn to listen.

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Jul 6, 2006 2:32:39 AM

JP66: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Seattle , United States; Posts: 2217, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 10, 2003; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:

But even "numb" the non Z06 standard vette just crushes a 997S on a track and that is where sports cars go.

Are you refering to the article with your comment above? If so, it was a 997, not a 997S...

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Jul 6, 2006 2:51:37 AM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: RonnieC6Z

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Quote:
RonnieC6Z said:

And your experience with Vettes is??? I have owned 7 of them...drive the hell out of them...20-25K a year. None fell apart..none developed rattles...they are the most trouble free cars that I have ever owned..including 911's that lived in the shop.

You are either dreaming, high, or still in high school. There has not been a domestic car besides maybe some of the caddies that can compare to imports in regards to NVH over time. My experience? 78 with an M22, 85 TH700, 01 Z06

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Jul 6, 2006 2:53:24 AM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: JP66

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Quote:
JP66 said:Are you refering to the article with your comment above? If so, it was a 997, not a 997S...

Yep, it was a base 997 versus a C6 Z51 Vette.

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Jul 6, 2006 3:16:11 AM

355Spider: Co-Pilot; Loc: Dallas, Texas , United States; Posts: 277, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2006; Reply to: DavidSF

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Quote:
DavidSF said:
Granted this isn't a comparison between the C6Z and 997TT, whenever I see a Corvette vs. 911 comparision post I can't help but recall the words from the Car & Driver comparison test between the C6 vs. 997: "There is, however, a numbness to the chassis that was especially apparent when compared with the Porsche, and that cost the Vette some points."

Yes, the Corvette has a numb chassis. That's a deal breaker for me, no matter how fast it is. I don't care if it does 0 - 60 in 3 seconds. Numb chassis is the worst thing you can say about a sports car. In fact, I could argue the C6 isn't a real sports car because of it.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/8774/almost-supercars.html

That would be a great comparison but the C6 and the C6Z do not share the same chassis. Trust me, it's not numb.

SOme of you guys have serious issues with how people view you and what people think about you. I could care less if the Z06 has some kind of image. It's one of the greatest sports cars I have ever driven.
I mean if Burger King created one of the greatest tasting meals of all time. SOme of you would stand outside of Burger King and say, pfff i'm too good to go in Burger King while the rest of us went in and had one the greatest meals ever.

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Jul 6, 2006 3:53:43 AM

DavidSF: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 525, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 7, 2003; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
As per the article cited..

"At 60 mph, the Porsche's 4.3-second time is only 0.2 second slower than the Vette's, but at 150, the gap is 3.5 seconds.

The 911, therefore, needed a major handling advantage to outrun the Vette at GingerMan. No such trump card arose. Like most recent 911s, this one predominantly understeers, so in GingerMan's long corners, we had to wait seemingly forever to put the power down and accelerate out of the turns. The 911's best lap time of 1:37.95 was 2.3 seconds slower than the Vette's. That's an eternity in road racing."

Thats pretty good for numb

You can dial out a lot of the "numb" for relatively little cost compared to modding a 997. But even "numb" the non Z06 standard vette just crushes a 997S on a track and that is where sports cars go.

I have my suggestions for Porsche, but they are too stubborn to listen.

"The 911, therefore, needed a major handling advantage to outrun the Vette at GingerMan."

Isn't that the definition of a sports car? A great handling car? Gobs of HP/torque/grip doesn't make a car a sports car. It can result in impressive track times, but that still doesn't make it a sports car. The C6's HP/torque/grip
masks its deficiencies in handling and chassis, the true characteristics of a sports car.

Not sure how you can go from lap times to saying "eternity in road racing." Car and Driver says the 997 is superior on the road: "On the street, though, the nod goes to the 911."

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Jul 6, 2006 3:59:32 AM

DavidSF: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 525, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 7, 2003; Reply to: 355Spider

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Quote:
355Spider said:
Quote:
DavidSF said:
Granted this isn't a comparison between the C6Z and 997TT, whenever I see a Corvette vs. 911 comparision post I can't help but recall the words from the Car & Driver comparison test between the C6 vs. 997: "There is, however, a numbness to the chassis that was especially apparent when compared with the Porsche, and that cost the Vette some points."

Yes, the Corvette has a numb chassis. That's a deal breaker for me, no matter how fast it is. I don't care if it does 0 - 60 in 3 seconds. Numb chassis is the worst thing you can say about a sports car. In fact, I could argue the C6 isn't a real sports car because of it.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/8774/almost-supercars.html

That would be a great comparison but the C6 and the C6Z do not share the same chassis. Trust me, it's not numb.

SOme of you guys have serious issues with how people view you and what people think about you. I could care less if the Z06 has some kind of image. It's one of the greatest sports cars I have ever driven.
I mean if Burger King created one of the greatest tasting meals of all time. SOme of you would stand outside of Burger King and say, pfff i'm too good to go in Burger King while the rest of us went in and had one the greatest meals ever.

The C6 used in the comparison test had the Z51 suspension package. Isn't that the same suspension in the Z06? Any way, the comparison was for a BASE 997 vs. the C6 with the Z51 package. The 997 beat it in all categories except for value. I can't deny the Corvette that. It is an excellent value car. But the BASE 997 is the better, true, sports car, as agreed by Car and Driver. It seems reasonable to expect the same result, 997TT is the better, true, sports car than the C6Z.

Please note: gobs of HP, torque, and grip don't define a sports car. It's handling and chassis that make a car a sports car. A Porsche 911T from the 70s is more a sports car than a Hummer H3 even though the latter will beat it on any track. Think about it.

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Jul 6, 2006 5:04:56 AM

355Spider: Co-Pilot; Loc: Dallas, Texas , United States; Posts: 277, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2006; Reply to: DavidSF

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Quote:
DavidSF said:
Quote:
355Spider said:
Quote:
DavidSF said:
Granted this isn't a comparison between the C6Z and 997TT, whenever I see a Corvette vs. 911 comparision post I can't help but recall the words from the Car & Driver comparison test between the C6 vs. 997: "There is, however, a numbness to the chassis that was especially apparent when compared with the Porsche, and that cost the Vette some points."

Yes, the Corvette has a numb chassis. That's a deal breaker for me, no matter how fast it is. I don't care if it does 0 - 60 in 3 seconds. Numb chassis is the worst thing you can say about a sports car. In fact, I could argue the C6 isn't a real sports car because of it.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/8774/almost-supercars.html

That would be a great comparison but the C6 and the C6Z do not share the same chassis. Trust me, it's not numb.

SOme of you guys have serious issues with how people view you and what people think about you. I could care less if the Z06 has some kind of image. It's one of the greatest sports cars I have ever driven.
I mean if Burger King created one of the greatest tasting meals of all time. SOme of you would stand outside of Burger King and say, pfff i'm too good to go in Burger King while the rest of us went in and had one the greatest meals ever.

The C6 used in the comparison test had the Z51 suspension package. Isn't that the same suspension in the Z06? Any way, the comparison was for a BASE 997 vs. the C6 with the Z51 package. The 997 beat it in all categories except for value. I can't deny the Corvette that. It is an excellent value car. But the BASE 997 is the better, true, sports car, as agreed by Car and Driver. It seems reasonable to expect the same result, 997TT is the better, true, sports car than the C6Z.

Please note: gobs of HP, torque, and grip don't define a sports car. It's handling and chassis that make a car a sports car. A Porsche 911T from the 70s is more a sports car than a Hummer H3 even though the latter will beat it on any track. Think about it.

The C6Z06 shares neither the supsension nor the chassis with the Z51 C6. It shares the interior and that's about it. I hate t burst your bubble but the TT has been a GT car for the last few years(Post 993).The 996 was soft and numb. A terrible sports car but a great GT car which is what Porsche is aiming at. They're competing with for the SL crowd. The GT3/2 is where the true sports car lies in the 911 line up. I too thought the C6Z51 was a terribly numb piece of crap when I drove it. I was shocked big time when I drove the Z06. I suggest that many of you go out and try it. I guarantee you your opinion will change. And I come from driving Stradales, GT3/2s, 355, 360 , 430, Gallardos, Murcielagos etc... The Z is better than all of them hands down. I was never a Corvette owner or fan until this car. It changed me.

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Jul 6, 2006 5:11:13 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: DavidSF

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

The Z06 is different from a Z51 suspension. A Z06 has a inch lower center of gravity, a lower roll center,a different moment of polar inertia,bigger contact patchs front and rear and the car has much more downforce and weighs less. Even the engine is moved further back.

The limits of its adhesion are surprisngly attainable and exploitable, the C6 with the Z51 is a much squirrlier car at the limit than a Z06.

Comparing a base 997 with a C6 with Z51 (wich adds a thicker front sway bar and Bilsten shocks)I would have thought that the 997 would just walk away from it on the track. But the 997 did not. It lost and by 2 plus seconds.

And no Hummer H3 would ever beat a 70's 911T on any paved track anywhere or anytime. Even A 4cy early 912 would beat a Hummer H3 around a paved track.

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Jul 6, 2006 6:09:58 AM

BiTurbo: Rennteam Master; Loc: X , United States; Posts: 3251, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2006; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

The question is does $70k = $123k ?

You get what you pay for Download Video

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Jul 6, 2006 11:59:23 AM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3993, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: BiTurbo

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Quote:
AMA said:You get what you pay for Download Video

Wow!

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Jul 6, 2006 1:49:23 PM

polo: Senior; Loc: France; Posts: 539, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 26, 2006; Reply to: BiTurbo

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Quote:
AMA said:
The question is does $70k = $123k ?

You get what you pay for Download Video

LOL

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Jul 6, 2006 8:19:18 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: W8MM

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Quote:
W8MM said:
Quote:
AMA said:You get what you pay for Download Video

Wow!

x2

too funny

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Jul 7, 2006 4:35:35 AM

Deven: Junior; Loc: Scottsdale, Arizona; Posts: 78, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 26, 2005; Reply to: BiTurbo

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Quote:
AMA said:
The question is does $70k = $123k ?

You get what you pay for Download Video

After reading through this entire thread (and though initially amusng)I was starting to get a headache, that was the funniest thing I have seen in a long time.

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Jul 7, 2006 4:51:02 AM

DavidSF: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 525, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 7, 2003; Reply to: BiTurbo

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Quote:
AMA said:
The question is does $70k = $123k ?

You get what you pay for Download Video

But it's not the Z06! LOL.

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Jul 7, 2006 7:16:27 AM

BiTurbo: Rennteam Master; Loc: X , United States; Posts: 3251, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2006; Reply to: DavidSF

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

1 Z06 comin up

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=54696B097AC469A4

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Jul 7, 2006 10:24:40 AM

dhayek: Rennteam Master; Loc: Beirut , Lebanon; Posts: 3839, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 7, 2004; Reply to: BiTurbo

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

time have changed..
i will never buy a zo6 ,not my kind of car but i have to admit ,a car that is that fast and that accesible is an annoying fact. ten years ago when i bought my 993tt,i was the king of the road , by far ;the closest competitor was the 355 who was damn slow compared to the tt. now competiton has become fierce! if i had a murcielago there is plenty of cars that is or as fast or faster(599,enzo,pagani,gt40 etc..) and now i own a Gallardo and still there is 997tt,z06,430,gt3,m5,m6etc... i have to learn to look good in my rear view mirror to see if its a c6 or a z06 ,a m5 or an 523...

weird days..

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Jul 7, 2006 10:27:46 AM

trip: Expert; Loc: Bay Area California , United States; Posts: 1691, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 11, 2006; Reply to: dhayek

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Wouldn't worry too much about those 523's

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Jul 7, 2006 11:17:38 AM

AUM: Veteran; Loc: Germany; Posts: 1203, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2006; Reply to: trip

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Ijust saw a car that will not be bothered too much by the competition. It is a 700Hp 800Nm 996 turbo with full CF body, minus 160 kg, and 10 cm wider. CGT seats, 380 mm race brakes, etc, etc. But no A/c and a bit noisy for long distance travel.

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Jul 7, 2006 12:39:00 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: AUM

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Quote:
AUM said:
Ijust saw a car that will not be bothered too much by the competition. It is a 700Hp 800Nm 996 turbo with full CF body, minus 160 kg, and 10 cm wider. CGT seats, 380 mm race brakes, etc, etc. But no A/c and a bit noisy for long distance travel.

Manthey?

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Jul 7, 2006 1:04:25 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59579, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: AUM

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Quote:
AUM said:
Ijust saw a car that will not be bothered too much by the competition. It is a 700Hp 800Nm 996 turbo with full CF body, minus 160 kg, and 10 cm wider. CGT seats, 380 mm race brakes, etc, etc. But no A/c and a bit noisy for long distance travel.

Full CF body? So each little dent costs 10000 Euro to repair?

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Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline

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