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    Jul 5, 2006 8:22:40 PM

    RCA
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    997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    I had the chance to talk to "somebody" today who is involved in 997 Turbo engine development.
    He had a lot of praise for the new VTG technology (of course ) but when it came to tuning, he mentioned a few things which I should share with you:

    1. with the current setup, up to 540 HP or so are possible with tweaking the ECU software only, meaning an additional 60 HP. Torque would raise by around 25%. Top speed stays the same (which would indicate that the top speed is NOT electronically limited but limited by the rev limiter/gear ratio). This setup would enhance 0-125 mph/200 kph performance by 1.5 seconds (now don't ask me where he knows this from ).
    2. the 997 Turbo engine boost pressure is already at a higher level but the chargers can deal with up to 1.4 bar without major problems.
    3. (reliable) power figures above 540 HP can only be obtained with hardware changes, too expensive.
    4. exhaust modifications which involve catalytic converter mods are not recommended due to the extremely high exhaust temperatures and the special cats used.

    Just wanted to share this information with you, so we know what to expect from Tuners soon.

    Jul 5, 2006 8:48:09 PM

    sdy284
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning



    this also tells us what we should stay away from even if the tuners say that its "100% safe & tested"

    Jul 5, 2006 9:05:16 PM

    xandi911
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    Reply to: sdy284

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    sorry, bad english interpretation
    so the max hp with eveything stock, just with chiptuning, is something around 540 hp? thats it?? thankssss.

    Jul 5, 2006 9:21:06 PM

    AUM
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    Reply to: xandi911

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    1. with the current setup, up to 540 HP or so are possible with tweaking the ECU software only, meaning an additional 60 HP. Torque would raise by around 25%. Top speed stays the same (which would indicate that the top speed is NOT electronically limited but limited by the rev limiter/gear ratio). This setup would enhance 0-125 mph/200 kph performance by 1.5 seconds.

    +++ Sounds interesting. Would this tweaking eliminate the need for SC and the wart?

    Jul 5, 2006 9:28:24 PM

    Turbo Al Offline
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    From what you're saying, it sounds like we should expect 540 peak HP, 25% more torque (600+lb-ft/800+Nm), and advertised 0-200kph times under 11 flat. At least from the reliable tuners.

    I still bet there's something that can be done to the exhaust (both sound- and performance-wise), and tuners will bump the rev-limiter up by 500rpm's-for a bump in top speed, as well.

    But 540-560 peak HP on a VTG is still impressive (and not a good indicator of this car's potential, as power and torque across the rev-range can increase substantially without bumping peak numbers), because much of the gain on this powerplant will be in the lower revs (1,500-4,500). Thus any tuning that is mostly software/flashing in nature will be low-grade.

    I also bet some tuners will offer traditional turbo's with fixed geometries with ECU re-tuning of the 997 (ala the RUF RT12). At the price of having to replace the VTG's. This will of course require complete re-progamming, but there are computer jocks capable of this.

    This is an unrelated point, but I wonder if Porsche (or anyone) is attempting to develop a regulated 2-stage turbocharging system (hooked up both serial and in parallel) that would even MORE than the 997TT be a modern version of the 959-that is, 2 turbo's of different (but fixed) geometries, with high-pressure turbine and low-pressure turbine impellers at fixed angles. I think BW has such a project (they call "R2S"). This is not dissimilar to Bott and Bantle's setup in the 959. If by keeping the impeller angles fixed, using traditional blow-off/diversion, and selecting the proper pressure and flow thresholds, perhaps EGT's could stay lower with spool-up time minimized-decreasing lag, but with a low-pressure/high-flow turbine, creating power at high engine (and car) speeds....

    Jul 5, 2006 9:30:27 PM

    svtrader1
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    RC,

    Should you have spilled the beans? By chipping the turbo you can get more hp which can tranlate to better performance than a Power kit. All for a fraction of the price of the powerkit. Yes, you void the warranty, but, the turbo is bulletproof.

    Jul 5, 2006 9:34:10 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: svtrader1

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    RC,

    Should you have spilled the beans? By chipping the turbo you can get more hp which can tranlate to better performance than a Power kit. All for a fraction of the price of the powerkit. Yes, you void the warranty, but, the turbo is bulletproof.


    If the powerkit delivers larger VTG turbos and even transmission upgrades like on the 996TT, then the Powerkit can also be tuned for much higher power levels than tuned 997TT...

    Jul 5, 2006 9:36:46 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: svtrader1

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    RC,

    Should you have spilled the beans? By chipping the turbo you can get more hp which can tranlate to better performance than a Power kit. All for a fraction of the price of the powerkit. Yes, you void the warranty, but, the turbo is bulletproof.



    I just wanted to forward some interesting information. The powerkit was always a bit "conservative" regarding power claim/output, so aftermarket tuning has always been the "cheaper" alternative. But of course without factory warranty.

    Regarding using "classic"/conventional turbo chargers to raise the power: I'm afraid this isn't that simple anymore. The VTG chargers have electrically controlled "impellers" which are controlled by the ECU. You can't adapt conventional/non-VTG chargers to the 997 Turbo, this would be pretty difficult in my opinion, especially since PTM/PASM are connected to the whole "network" too.

    I actually see more of a chance for "classic" tuning like new camshafts, new pistons, etc. to increase power beyond the mentioned 540 HP. Again: the mentioned 540 HP should be obtained by a simple software upgrade, nothing more. I don't have a clue about reliability, the warranty would definetely be gone.

    Jul 5, 2006 9:55:11 PM

    Turbo Al Offline
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    RC,

    Should you have spilled the beans? By chipping the turbo you can get more hp which can tranlate to better performance than a Power kit. All for a fraction of the price of the powerkit. Yes, you void the warranty, but, the turbo is bulletproof.


    If the powerkit delivers larger VTG turbos and even transmission upgrades like on the 996TT, then the Powerkit can also be tuned for much higher power levels than tuned 997TT...



    Yes,

    One could use larger VTG's (presumably the whole system would need to be tested for thermal compatibility, would EGT's jump even higher? And tranny AND engine would need new hardware, just as on a mega-torque/mega-HP 996TT), and with a similar problem that fixed-angle turbo's would pose to the system-programming with the network-not IMO insurmountable, but necessary, and a challenge, nevertheless.

    I still wonder about a 2-stage system ala the 959. I even wonder if any tuners around the world have done packages for the 996TT-I saw none in my "search" last year. Perhaps BW is the only one working on this. What about Garrett?

    Jul 5, 2006 11:46:17 PM

    KJB
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    Reply to: Turbo Al

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    "Yes, you void the warranty, but the turbo is bulletproof"

    The turbo engine may be bulletproof, but all the new networking (esp if you have the Tip) has yet to be really proven by long-term consumer use. I would hate to void the warranty then find out some electronic sensor or whatever failed (unrelated to chipping) and get stuck with the bill. As soon as the car is out of warranty, mods begin!!

    Jul 6, 2006 4:44:00 AM

    bostonmini
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    Reply to: KJB

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    My question relates to one above, which is if borg warner will offer larger VTG turbos for tuners to play with...I realize that this is a big job, and that swapping the turbos alone isnt the whole thing, but RC, didnt u mention prototypes were running around with 600+ hp??? how were THEY getting it;)

    Jul 6, 2006 5:02:20 AM

    Super DariusM
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    Reply to: bostonmini

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    Great news RC....

    good thing 540HP with ecu mods only!

    Jul 6, 2006 6:32:00 AM

    BiTurbo
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    Reply to: Super DariusM

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    This ECU you talk about, is it going to be available through Porsche dealer or tuners ?

    Jul 6, 2006 8:15:35 AM

    Nick_Athens Offline
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    Reply to: BiTurbo

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    Quote:
    AMA said:
    This ECU you talk about, is it going to be available through Porsche dealer or tuners ?



    Lol of course it is going to be out by tuners.. (and if Porsche finds out you will loose your warranty...

    Jul 6, 2006 8:17:39 AM

    RCA
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    RC
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    Reply to: KJB

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    Quote:
    KJB said:
    "Yes, you void the warranty, but the turbo is bulletproof"

    The turbo engine may be bulletproof, but all the new networking (esp if you have the Tip) has yet to be really proven by long-term consumer use. I would hate to void the warranty then find out some electronic sensor or whatever failed (unrelated to chipping) and get stuck with the bill. As soon as the car is out of warranty, mods begin!!



    My point of view exactly. And most people seem to forget that the 997 Turbo is incredibly fast, even stock. I want to get used to the stock car and be able to control the stock power as good as I can before I consider an upgrade. Of course I also want to wait to see what Porsche is coming up with, the powerkit will be very interesting and if it is retrofittable (still have hopes but not many), it would be worth taking in consideration. The warranty is a very delicate thing and loosing it would be pretty tough for me. Last time I checked, a 911 Turbo engine was somewhere around 40000 Euro or 50000 USD. Not kidding!

    Jul 6, 2006 8:21:53 AM

    RCA
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    Reply to: BiTurbo

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    Quote:
    AMA said:
    This ECU you talk about, is it going to be available through Porsche dealer or tuners ?



    I just wanted to share some information with you what is possible and what the limitations of a "simple" and "cheap" tuning will be. This doesn't mean that Tuners have already come up with such an ECU or that it will be available anytime soon. The guy I was talking to was only talking about the possibilities of the 997 Turbo engine.

    The rumored Porsche powerkit (the official thing!) indicates a power upgrade of aprox. 510-520 HP, a few horses below the possible power output. And it seems that the powerkit will involve some hardware changes too, which may put a big questionmark behind a possible retrofit.

    Jul 6, 2006 8:33:42 AM

    Nick_Athens Offline
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    Quote:
    RC said:


    The warranty is a very delicate thing and loosing it would be pretty tough for me. Last time I checked, a 911 Turbo engine was somewhere around 40000 Euro or 50000 USD. Not kidding!



    I have heard, but never used it. (Tell me you didnt know it ) that if you break the gearbox or the engine of any Porsche car, you wont have to buy a new engine in its full price but in very cheap price.. 8.000-10.000 euros depends on the model for the engine and 2.000-5.000 euros for the gearbox.. (Ofcourse for new parts)

    Jul 6, 2006 10:24:58 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    AMA said:
    This ECU you talk about, is it going to be available through Porsche dealer or tuners ?



    I just wanted to share some information with you what is possible and what the limitations of a "simple" and "cheap" tuning will be. This doesn't mean that Tuners have already come up with such an ECU or that it will be available anytime soon. The guy I was talking to was only talking about the possibilities of the 997 Turbo engine.

    The rumored Porsche powerkit (the official thing!) indicates a power upgrade of aprox. 510-520 HP, a few horses below the possible power output. And it seems that the powerkit will involve some hardware changes too, which may put a big questionmark behind a possible retrofit.



    It would be interesting to know why Porsche opts for hardware changes to raise power to 510-520hp if they could achieve the same result with software changes too

    Jul 6, 2006 10:25:22 AM

    MKSGRM
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    MKSGR
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    AMA said:
    This ECU you talk about, is it going to be available through Porsche dealer or tuners ?



    I just wanted to share some information with you what is possible and what the limitations of a "simple" and "cheap" tuning will be. This doesn't mean that Tuners have already come up with such an ECU or that it will be available anytime soon. The guy I was talking to was only talking about the possibilities of the 997 Turbo engine.

    The rumored Porsche powerkit (the official thing!) indicates a power upgrade of aprox. 510-520 HP, a few horses below the possible power output. And it seems that the powerkit will involve some hardware changes too, which may put a big questionmark behind a possible retrofit.



    It would be interesting to know why Porsche opts for hardware changes to raise power to 510-520hp if they could achieve the same result ("bullet proof") with software changes too

    Jul 6, 2006 11:53:21 AM

    Tony007
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    AMA said:
    This ECU you talk about, is it going to be available through Porsche dealer or tuners ?



    I just wanted to share some information with you what is possible and what the limitations of a "simple" and "cheap" tuning will be. This doesn't mean that Tuners have already come up with such an ECU or that it will be available anytime soon. The guy I was talking to was only talking about the possibilities of the 997 Turbo engine.

    The rumored Porsche powerkit (the official thing!) indicates a power upgrade of aprox. 510-520 HP, a few horses below the possible power output. And it seems that the powerkit will involve some hardware changes too, which may put a big questionmark behind a possible retrofit.



    It would be interesting to know why Porsche opts for hardware changes to raise power to 510-520hp if they could achieve the same result with software changes too



    What costs more, simple software change or BIG HARDWARE change?!?. How else can they have an excuse to price an upgrade around 10000-15000. Software upgrades usually run $2500

    Jul 6, 2006 11:58:55 AM

    Crash
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    Reply to: Tony007

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    Quote:
    Tony007 said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    AMA said:
    This ECU you talk about, is it going to be available through Porsche dealer or tuners ?



    I just wanted to share some information with you what is possible and what the limitations of a "simple" and "cheap" tuning will be. This doesn't mean that Tuners have already come up with such an ECU or that it will be available anytime soon. The guy I was talking to was only talking about the possibilities of the 997 Turbo engine.

    The rumored Porsche powerkit (the official thing!) indicates a power upgrade of aprox. 510-520 HP, a few horses below the possible power output. And it seems that the powerkit will involve some hardware changes too, which may put a big questionmark behind a possible retrofit.



    It would be interesting to know why Porsche opts for hardware changes to raise power to 510-520hp if they could achieve the same result with software changes too



    What costs more, simple software change or BIG HARDWARE change?!?. How else can they have an excuse to price an upgrade around 10000-15000. Software upgrades usually run $2500



    Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the cars have to be 100% reliable for long-duration high-speed driving. Only chipping a 150.000 EUR car seemsa like a dumb idea.

    Jul 6, 2006 12:06:21 PM

    Tony007
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    Tony007 said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    AMA said:
    This ECU you talk about, is it going to be available through Porsche dealer or tuners ?



    I just wanted to share some information with you what is possible and what the limitations of a "simple" and "cheap" tuning will be. This doesn't mean that Tuners have already come up with such an ECU or that it will be available anytime soon. The guy I was talking to was only talking about the possibilities of the 997 Turbo engine.

    The rumored Porsche powerkit (the official thing!) indicates a power upgrade of aprox. 510-520 HP, a few horses below the possible power output. And it seems that the powerkit will involve some hardware changes too, which may put a big questionmark behind a possible retrofit.



    It would be interesting to know why Porsche opts for hardware changes to raise power to 510-520hp if they could achieve the same result with software changes too



    What costs more, simple software change or BIG HARDWARE change?!?. How else can they have an excuse to price an upgrade around 10000-15000. Software upgrades usually run $2500



    Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the cars have to be 100% reliable for long-duration high-speed driving. Only chipping a 150.000 EUR car seemsa like a dumb idea.



    Not to me. Guys all over town here in FL have been doing Renntech software on their 185-200K MB SL65's, costs around 3500 bucks and netting 50-60 hp & 125 ft/lbs TQ.

    Why do you say software is a bad thing?

    I've done software only & software + mods on the last 6 cars I've owned and been completely problem free.

    RevoTechnik will have their software very soon that can be put back to stock by the user any time they want. My local MB dealer also sells the RevoTechnik through their motorsports dept and WILL warranty and engine problems if software is purchased through them.

    Jul 6, 2006 12:09:36 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: Tony007

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    Florida is different. ECU tuning will not hurt the car, that only does short bursts of acceleration. However, for european conditions, it probably wouldn't be the best of ideas, as a stand-alone mod.

    Jul 6, 2006 12:21:03 PM

    andrea
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    now all the 997 turbo's owners have to go to RS Tuning for the ecu-tuning.

    i can't imagine how will be 997 gt2 with ecu modified....

    Jul 6, 2006 12:23:20 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: Tony007

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    Quote:
    Tony007 said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    AMA said:
    This ECU you talk about, is it going to be available through Porsche dealer or tuners ?



    I just wanted to share some information with you what is possible and what the limitations of a "simple" and "cheap" tuning will be. This doesn't mean that Tuners have already come up with such an ECU or that it will be available anytime soon. The guy I was talking to was only talking about the possibilities of the 997 Turbo engine.

    The rumored Porsche powerkit (the official thing!) indicates a power upgrade of aprox. 510-520 HP, a few horses below the possible power output. And it seems that the powerkit will involve some hardware changes too, which may put a big questionmark behind a possible retrofit.



    It would be interesting to know why Porsche opts for hardware changes to raise power to 510-520hp if they could achieve the same result with software changes too



    What costs more, simple software change or BIG HARDWARE change?!?. How else can they have an excuse to price an upgrade around 10000-15000. Software upgrades usually run $2500



    I am positive that Porsche would have no problem at all in charging 10k-15k for software changes only. They would find a story to sell it

    Jul 6, 2006 12:25:59 PM

    MKSGRM
    Rennteam Moderator
    MKSGR
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    Reply to: andrea

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    Quote:
    andrea said:
    now all the 997 turbo's owners have to go to RS Tuning for the ecu-tuning.

    i can't imagine how will be 997 gt2 with ecu modified....



    In the end, an additional 30-50hp does not make too big a difference.

    Just remember, the RT12 RC met with his new 997TT just gained 100 meters or so up to 300kph! What are 100 meters compared to full warranty, highest safety standards etc.

    And the RT12 has not just 30-50hp more

    Jul 6, 2006 12:26:43 PM

    zzbobaA
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    Quote:

    I am positive that Porsche would have no problem at all in charging 10k-15k for software changes only. They would find a story to sell it



    Now you are unfair. They sure would include a nice carbon airbox cover

    Jul 6, 2006 12:30:53 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: zzbobaA

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Quote:

    I am positive that Porsche would have no problem at all in charging 10k-15k for software changes only. They would find a story to sell it



    Now you are unfair. They sure would include a nice carbon airbox cover



    Heheheheh

    Jul 6, 2006 1:36:51 PM

    Rossi
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    Reply to: zzbobaA

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Quote:

    I am positive that Porsche would have no problem at all in charging 10k-15k for software changes only. They would find a story to sell it



    Now you are unfair. They sure would include a nice carbon airbox cover



    Somehow reminds me of the famous Ferrari battery charger with its famous Schedoni leather suitcase...

    Jul 6, 2006 2:23:44 PM

    TT Surgeon
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    Reply to: Rossi

    Re: 997 Turbo - Engine Tuning

    I understand the problem with cats, but what about a simple muffler swap to better the sound?
     
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