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Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
I've been watching this and it just doesn't seem to add up with Porsche's recent history. Bugatti is owned by VW of whom Porsche now has a sizeable stake. Why would they want to complete against what is essentially, themselves? CGT's all sold as far as I know, but didn't they end up cutting the final tally short because of questionable demand? Would there even be a demand for what would probably be a much more expensive vehicle?
Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
Quote:
doyle said:
I've been watching this and it just doesn't seem to add up with Porsche's recent history. Bugatti is owned by VW of whom Porsche now has a sizeable stake. Why would they want to complete against what is essentially, themselves? CGT's all sold as far as I know, but didn't they end up cutting the final tally short because of questionable demand? Would there even be a demand for what would probably be a much more expensive vehicle?
If there are dollars to be made Porsche will build it. The learned from their fiasco involving the CGT and will be more circumspect in how they market this car if they decide to do it.
However, I believe it would be a slap in the face of the present CGT owners if this car is built. They have taken their licks financially and this would be piling on.
Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
Funny to hear somebody call the best supersportscar present time a fiasco... I think I hear money talking...
Having said that, the article does not make sense to me at all... it reads like "well, we don't know what to write now... well, make something up about the future of Porsche :-S"
-Joost-
Having said that, the article does not make sense to me at all... it reads like "well, we don't know what to write now... well, make something up about the future of Porsche :-S"
-Joost-
Jul 1, 2006 5:51:05 AM
- bostonmini
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Jul 1, 2006 2:11:47 PM
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Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
It would make sense since LeMans announced that the future cars would have to be enclosed (current LMP1 cars are open cockpit). Sounds like Porsche could be getting ready to compete again. They might want to subsidize thier efforts by selling racing and street versions of this car. Maybe like the old Group B (959) 200 cars. I think there would be 200 buyers, but not many more.
Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
Quote:what period of time should lapse before porsche builds another supercar "pro bono nick"?
nberry said:If there are dollars to be made Porsche will build it. The learned from their fiasco involving the CGT and will be more circumspect in how they market this car if they decide to do it.
However, I believe it would be a slap in the face of the present CGT owners if this car is built. They have taken their licks financially and this would be piling on.
jeff
Jul 2, 2006 6:46:35 AM
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Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
doyle said:
I've been watching this and it just doesn't seem to add up with Porsche's recent history. Bugatti is owned by VW of whom Porsche now has a sizeable stake. Why would they want to complete against what is essentially, themselves? CGT's all sold as far as I know, but didn't they end up cutting the final tally short because of questionable demand? Would there even be a demand for what would probably be a much more expensive vehicle?
However, I believe it would be a slap in the face of the present CGT owners if this car is built.
As will be the new F60 for Enzo owners.
Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
A GT1 street version has been rumored for a while now but it won't have 950 HP (this is BULL) and it won't be much faster than the Carrera GT. BUT...it should be slightly cheaper...if somebody really cares. Of course no bargain, still somewhere between the 997 GT2 and Carrera GT price tag. Ouch.
Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
Nick, what are you talking about? CGT fiasco? Porsche sold all planned cars, production was planned to be stopped after the number of cars built. I agree that the CGT has been slightly difficult to sell over the past few months but there was no fiasco, there was no unplanned production stop, I really don't know why people blow that much hot air?! 
Jul 3, 2006 6:08:31 AM
- bostonmini
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RC
Jul 3, 2006 3:10:25 PM
- mv
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Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
Here is the original article:
http://img511.imageshack.us/my.php?image=porschegt10zl.jpg
http://img511.imageshack.us/my.php?image=porschegt10zl.jpg
Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
doyle said:
I've been watching this and it just doesn't seem to add up with Porsche's recent history. Bugatti is owned by VW of whom Porsche now has a sizeable stake. Why would they want to complete against what is essentially, themselves? CGT's all sold as far as I know, but didn't they end up cutting the final tally short because of questionable demand? Would there even be a demand for what would probably be a much more expensive vehicle?
If there are dollars to be made Porsche will build it. The learned from their fiasco involving the CGT and will be more circumspect in how they market this car if they decide to do it.
However, I believe it would be a slap in the face of the present CGT owners if this car is built. They have taken their licks financially and this would be piling on.
No Nick, I don't think it would be "piling it on" for present CGT owners. They didn't buy their car for the same reason you bought your car. Only you with your cynical and twisted thoughts would think that.
Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
Nick, you really say the funniest things some times. Let's see, either way this goes, there is a bashing strategy ready for you:
1) Porsche does not build this car: "Morally bankrupt truck company, leaving its high performance heritage behind, not building the type of extreme car it used to...etc."
2) Porsche builds the car: "Cynical, money-grubbing Porsche... Lures customers in with the sub-standard, fiasco GT and then later introducing a faster/better (and most important to you) more exclusive successor. Pathetic losers!"
Ever heard of progress? Should Porsche stop with the GT? I'm sure Ferrari would never try to improve on the Enzo...
1) Porsche does not build this car: "Morally bankrupt truck company, leaving its high performance heritage behind, not building the type of extreme car it used to...etc."
2) Porsche builds the car: "Cynical, money-grubbing Porsche... Lures customers in with the sub-standard, fiasco GT and then later introducing a faster/better (and most important to you) more exclusive successor. Pathetic losers!"
Ever heard of progress? Should Porsche stop with the GT? I'm sure Ferrari would never try to improve on the Enzo...
Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
Quote:
amjf088 said:
Nick, you really say the funniest things some times. Let's see, either way this goes, there is a bashing strategy ready for you:
1) Porsche does not build this car: "Morally bankrupt truck company, leaving its high performance heritage behind, not building the type of extreme car it used to...etc."
2) Porsche builds the car: "Cynical, money-grubbing Porsche... Lures customers in with the sub-standard, fiasco GT and then later introducing a faster/better (and most important to you) more exclusive successor. Pathetic losers!"
Ever heard of progress? Should Porsche stop with the GT? I'm sure Ferrari would never try to improve on the Enzo...
The F60 will soon be here and Nick will be singing praises to it.
Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
Quote:
RC said:
Nick, what are you talking about? CGT fiasco? Porsche sold all planned cars, production was planned to be stopped after the number of cars built. I agree that the CGT has been slightly difficult to sell over the past few months but there was no fiasco, there was no unplanned production stop, I really don't know why people blow that much hot air?!
I believe they planned to build 1500 and when the buyers dried up they changed it to 1200.
The fiasco (btw not from Porsche's prospective; they made money) involved several areas. The fiasco relates to the market place.
First they indicated they would sell 750 cars at around $350,000. Then they increased the number to 1500 and increased the price to $450,000. As a result today, the car has lost almost 30% in value and in the US there are over 50 for sale out of 600 or so shipped here.
Second, racing clutch was a nightmare for the average driver. The journalist in reviewing the car all commented on it difficulty. Thus, it scared away many possible buyers.
Third, the car lacked a PDK type tranny which has led to its lack of desireablity among money people.
Fourth, the failure to install adequate stability devices with the power and weight ratio being what it is. Predicatably there have been a host of single car accidents involving the car.
Fifth, this supercar with its performance parameters should have required driver training to many of the buyers. Instead, what Porsche did was to give buyers a hot ride around the track by TRAINED professional factory drivers to "show" what the car can do. As expected, several of these single car accidents have led to death and serious injury,
Though a great performing car, the CGT is also undriveable for the average and above average driver.
Jul 4, 2006 7:23:50 PM
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Nick_Athens
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Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
I dont agree here with you so much... CGT is a car with 600+ Hp. A True SPORTCAR! what did you expect?
this car to be easy driven like the 997tt? or to be for everyday use?
We told that true sportcars are not for everyday use...
CGT is the exception to the rule for Porsche... It is the only monster it has produced aftair 2000 till now..
The fact though with the number which were produced is right..
this car to be easy driven like the 997tt? or to be for everyday use?
We told that true sportcars are not for everyday use...
CGT is the exception to the rule for Porsche... It is the only monster it has produced aftair 2000 till now..
The fact though with the number which were produced is right..
Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
Quote:
nberry said:First they indicated they would sell 750 cars at around $350,000. Then they increased the number to 1500 and increased the price to $450,000.
Not quite right, Nick.
Porsche indicated that they needed 1000 buyers to go ahead with series production. This is well documented from 2001-2002. The dollar price was imputed by dealers from a "less than 400,000 Euros" price stated by the factory. Over the year or two between the announcement of the Euro price and the official introduction of the Carrera GT at Geneva in March, 2003, the Euro vs. US Dollar exchange rate changed quite markedly. The dealers are to blame for promoting the dollar price instead of the Euro estimate. The Euro price was established at 399,000 (before taxes), which met Porsche's promise.
After the frenzy of interest from speculators and the pretty obvious Ferrari-dealer-envy from Porsche dealers, PAG was convinced that "up to an extra 1,000" (total = 2000) cars might be able to be sold. They settled on 1,500 as a maximum. They made a mistake by believing the prevarications of some of their best customers (dealers). They got burned by their own.
Quote:
nberry said:Second, racing clutch was a nightmare for the average driver. The journalist in reviewing the car all commented on it difficulty. Thus, it scared away many possible buyers.
The clutch was never an issue for any owner I have ever talked to, save one. Perhaps his was defective (I understand it was subsequently replaced).
The actual problem was a by-product of one aspect of what makes the CGT so exciting to drive: low rotary inertia of the engine. The engine that revs so freely, sounding more like a motorcycle than a car, also slows down just as fast. This means that some gas pedal launching-from-rest techniques that work on a more sluggishly revving engine with a big flywheel won't work on the CGT. If one does not keep giving the car a little gas when starting to release the clutch, the engine will not transfer enough energy through the clutch into the mass of the car to get going. It'll stall. Too much gas will light off the back tires. Somewhere in between is just right. Once one realizes that it's the engine characteristic, and not the clutch, causing the learning experience, everything turns out right as rain. After 25 miles, I was completely used to it.
Your journalists seemed not to have enough seat time to make the required adjustments. They pride themselves on being able to drive any car, but this really means that they become adapted to the "average car" and anything very far from the center of the distribution becomes "weird", no matter how inspired.
Quote:
nberry said:Third, the car lacked a PDK type tranny which has led to its lack of desirability among money people.
If an automatic transmission with the character of BMW's SMG were employed, I wouldn't like the car at all. It would not be able to behave in a docile manner if I should want such behavior from it. The new M5 I drove did not convince me of its desirability.
If the focus of marketing such a car is only the target demographic's bank account, one will end up with an SL65. That's not what I wanted, and I'm glad Porsche seems not to have wanted, either.
Quote:
nberry said:Fourth, the failure to install adequate stability devices with the power and weight ratio being what it is. Predictably there have been a host of single car accidents involving the car.
The traction control provided on the CGT works fabulously well in my experience. If one were to need the artificial intervention of a stability system (beyond a great traction control) in a car with such high limits and with such sublime manners as the CGT, one should not be operating the controls in such a careless or arrogantly naive manner.
Quote:
nberry said:Fifth, this supercar with its performance parameters should have required driver training to many of the buyers. Instead, what Porsche did was to give buyers a hot ride around the track by TRAINED professional factory drivers to "show" what the car can do. As expected, several of these single car accidents have led to death and serious injury.
Perhaps every know-it-all should be prevented from making ones own mistakes. I prefer the race track adage, "The B.S. stops when the green flag drops," as an arbiter of hubris.
Quote:
nberry said:Though a great performing car, the CGT is also undriveable for the average and above average driver.
I can drive mine quite well enough and I definitely belong in a group called "average and above average driver".
Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
Quote:
nberry said:
Second, racing clutch was a nightmare for the average driver. The journalist in reviewing the car all commented on it difficulty. Thus, it scared away many possible buyers.
it's not a nightmare, just different.
once used to it owners like it just fine.
where is your data on how many buyers changed their mind based on the clutch?
Third, the car lacked a PDK type tranny which has led to its lack of desireablity among money people.
oh! so only poor people have been buying the 450k cgt.
i wasn't aware of that.
Fourth, the failure to install adequate stability devices with the power and weight ratio being what it is. Predicatably there have been a host of single car accidents involving the car.
again, where is your data? it's a leading edge high performance car with 600hp.
of course there are going to be some accidents.
the enzo seems to be far surpassing it in number of accidents even though there are only 400 units out, compared to more than 1200 cgt's.
Fifth, this supercar with its performance parameters should have required driver training to many of the buyers. Instead, what Porsche did was to give buyers a hot ride around the track by TRAINED professional factory drivers to "show" what the car can do.
no oems require driver training.
porsche does offer driver training for a price.
As expected, several of these single car accidents have led to death and serious injury,
complete bullshit!
you should NEVER state something like this without the data to back it up!
we all know about ben's tragedy, but the fact that he decided to carry a passenger had nothing to do with porsche.
it also was not a single car accident from all accounts.
personally, i have only heard of one other death attributed to an accident involving a cgt!
Though a great performing car, the CGT is also undriveable for the average and above average driver.
there are over 1000 being driven without incident that would refute this claim.
but the truth has never been your long suit has it nick.
jeff
Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
"I can drive mine quite well enough and I definitely belong in a group called "average and above average driver". Sorry Mike, that dog will not hunt.
You are an acoomplished track driver to the point of considered an instructor. Yet you took the time to get instruction and found you were making critical error's with steering input that could have caused you to lose control of the car.
The issue of PDK is and was critical to the success of the CGT. Had they waited to perfect it more people would have been attracted to the car. That is not in dispute. Look at the 997TT and the issue of Tip vs. manual. Porsche claims the Tip is faster. The Enzo and other Supercars are so equipped with the advanced transmission.
The stability management system is an essential component for the enjoyment and safety of a high performance car owned by people with little experience in the handling of such cars. The CGt has been called tail happy. I have not gone that far but in my view the car should only be driven only by accomplished drivers.
As for the rest of your comments I agree that the clutch is something to get used to but the commentators had already done the damage. Also, I am not convinced that Porsche did not make certain adjustments to later build CGT's.
Icon, my comments are support by the lack of buyer's of new CGT's especially at MSRP or for that matter 10-15% below MSRP. As for used CGT's, the day is near when they will be sold for below $300,000. The market speaks volumes.
You have constantly stated you are in a market for a CGT. When are you going to buy one? When the price gets as low as your Porsche cab?
There are a ton of them for sale. As Nike says; JUST DO IT! 
You are an acoomplished track driver to the point of considered an instructor.
Yet you took the time to get instruction and found you were making critical error's with steering input that could have caused you to lose control of the car.
The issue of PDK is and was critical to the success of the CGT. Had they waited to perfect it more people would have been attracted to the car. That is not in dispute. Look at the 997TT and the issue of Tip vs. manual. Porsche claims the Tip is faster. The Enzo and other Supercars are so equipped with the advanced transmission.
The stability management system is an essential component for the enjoyment and safety of a high performance car owned by people with little experience in the handling of such cars. The CGt has been called tail happy. I have not gone that far but in my view the car should only be driven only by accomplished drivers.
As for the rest of your comments I agree that the clutch is something to get used to but the commentators had already done the damage. Also, I am not convinced that Porsche did not make certain adjustments to later build CGT's.
Icon, my comments are support by the lack of buyer's of new CGT's especially at MSRP or for that matter 10-15% below MSRP. As for used CGT's, the day is near when they will be sold for below $300,000. The market speaks volumes.
You have constantly stated you are in a market for a CGT. When are you going to buy one? When the price gets as low as your Porsche cab?
There are a ton of them for sale. As Nike says; JUST DO IT!
Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
Quote:
nberry said:
"I can drive mine quite well enough and I definitely belong in a group called "average and above average driver". Sorry Mike, that dog will not hunt.
You are an accomplished track driver to the point of being considered an instructor.
What? Critical errors leading to loss of control?
Never happened.
Get your dosage corrected, Nick. You're hallucinating again
Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
Quote:
W8MM said:Quote:
nberry said:
"I can drive mine quite well enough and I definitely belong in a group called "average and above average driver". Sorry Mike, that dog will not hunt.
You are an accomplished track driver to the point of being considered an instructor.
What? Critical errors leading to loss of control?
Never happened.
Get your dosage corrected, Nick. You're hallucinating again
Was on smoking something when you wrote this?
Hurley made a point of repeating, every time I went out with him, that the CGT has very sensitive steering and cautioned me more than once to be VERY steady with my steering inputs at speed. He said the car turns in more accurately and more directly than any 911/935/etc. One needs to be respectful of the car's capability.
It appears old Hurley was a little scared.
Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
Nick Qoute: "Sorry Mike, that dog will not hunt." 
I was curious when a common LBJ expression would be used here.
Be careful Mike, as Nick goes running down the hall throwing
arguments out hes just looking for one of them to stick. He cant help, its his job coming out.
I was curious when a common LBJ expression would be used here.
Be careful Mike, as Nick goes running down the hall throwing
arguments out hes just looking for one of them to stick. He cant help, its his job coming out.
Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Nick Qoute: "Sorry Mike, that dog will not hunt."
I was curious when a common LBJ expression would be used here.
Be careful Mike, as Nick goes running down the hall throwing
arguments out hes just looking for one of them to stick. He cant help, its his job coming out.
James, my dear comrade, my days are numbered just like LBJ.
Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
Quote:
nberry said:
Was on smoking something when you wrote this?
Hurley made a point of repeating, every time I went out with him, that the CGT has very sensitive steering and cautioned me more than once to be VERY steady with my steering inputs at speed. He said the car turns in more accurately and more directly than any 911/935/etc. One needs to be respectful of the car's capability.
It appears old Hurley was a little scared.
Nope, you were up to your old tricks of applying the most pejorative interpretation possible to imagine.
Hurley was far from scared. He was telling me the same thing he told every student all day long. He wanted to make sure I heard him.
I never did anything to come close to losing the car while on the track.
Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Nick Qoute: "Sorry Mike, that dog will not hunt."
I was curious when a common LBJ expression would be used here.
Be careful Mike, as Nick goes running down the hall throwing
arguments out hes just looking for one of them to stick. He cant help, its his job coming out.
James, my dear comrade, my days are numbered just like LBJ.
Thats ok
Porsche will soon claim to see light at the end of the tunnel.
With the front ends of the Panamera, Boxster, Cayman, 997, 997TT and 997GT3 all closely resembling each other, Im sure things will get worse before they get better with the "Porschevization."
Re: CGT replacment 950 hp and hit a top speed of 254 mph
Quote:
W8MM said:Quote:
nberry said:
Was on smoking something when you wrote this?
Hurley made a point of repeating, every time I went out with him, that the CGT has very sensitive steering and cautioned me more than once to be VERY steady with my steering inputs at speed. He said the car turns in more accurately and more directly than any 911/935/etc. One needs to be respectful of the car's capability.
It appears old Hurley was a little scared.
Nope, you were up to your old tricks of applying the most pejorative interpretation possible to imagine.
Hurley was far from scared. He was telling me the same thing he told every student all day long. He wanted to make sure I heard him.
I never did anything to come close to losing the car while on the track.
This is what I wrote " were making critical error's with steering input that could have caused you to lose control of the car.
Where did I say you were losing control?
As far as Hurley telling several times regarding steering input, I accept your intrepretation that it is because he did not think you heard him. However, an accomplished driver like yourself was making the error (if not he would not have told you several times). Now consider what is happening everyday by very much less accomplished drivers of the CGT on our public roads and streets.
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