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    997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ review

    The day of truth comes nearer and nearer and people already started to lead controversial discussions about the 997 Turbo and especially it's direct competition, the Ferrari F430 and the Lamborghini Gallardo.

    We have read so many reviews over the past few weeks, we've seen many pictures too and even car journalists don't seem to find a common ground of opinion regarding the 997 Turbo, the only thing they all seem to agree is the boring exhaust sound and the almost boring perfection of how the 997 Turbo performs.

    It was also interesting to read the comments of current 996 Turbo/S, Ferrari F430 and even Corvette Z06 owners, most of them were pretty questionable because they were emotional and pretty far away from the truth.

    Let me throw a few points into this whole discussion and I hope I'll clarify a few things by doing it:

    1. Some people claim that the 997 Turbo isn't fast enough. Fast enough from 0-100 kph? From 0-200 kph? How about 3.7 seconds and 12.2 seconds? Not fast enough? C'mon guys, some of you had too many drinks during lunch? It isn't my fault that car magazines are testing manual only because with Tip, the values would look more like 3.6 seconds and 11.8 seconds during real life driving.

    2. During the Auto Zeitung handling review, the 997 Turbo achieved the same or better track time than the F430 and Lamborghini Gallardo on street tires while both italian stallions were running on semi-slicks. So the 997 Turbo isn't faster? I get it.

    3. The Ferrari F430 used in the Auto Zeitung review had no license plates. How come? Oh no, no ringer. I'm sure about it. I'm also sure that if Luciano, my local Ristorante guy, claims that he just got fresh calamari, they're fresh from the ocean...here in Bavaria.

    4. To my knowledge, the track time AND test times in AZ achieved with the Corvette Z06 have been achieved by Kurt Thiim, a well known swedish race driver. He is not working for Porsche and he has a lot of experience driving high performance cars, especially normally aspirated ones with V8 engines.

    5. Some Americans have the false impression that the Corvette Z06 has a bad press over here in Europe. On the contrary, the Z06 has been received pretty well, comments are almost all positive and full of admiration. So cut the crap out, US boys, nobody wants to bash the Vette.

    6. It really is a mistery for me why some Users make comments like "Corvette, American sh.t" or "I would never buy an american sportscar...", etc. Guys...like it or not but the new Corvette Z06 is a very nice performer and this time, GM seems to have done a nice job. You don't like it? Don't buy it but please...these claims like "Americans can't build sportscars" are pure BS. Cut the crap out too, guys...the Z06 is a great sportscar and a bang for the buck. Don't like it? Don't buy it.

    7. It is true, the 997 Turbo doesn't show the same performance advantage over the competition like the 993 Turbo did more than 10 years ago. But the truth is also this: the competition is much tougher than 10 years ago, Lamborghini is actually a second Porsche with Audi help, Ferrari eats up mother Fiat's money like nothing (development) and it is no secret that GM doesn't seem to make a dime with the Corvette Z06, some sort of sponsored car to raise the reputation for the brand. So where does the 997 Turbo fit in? The answer is simple: the 997 Turbo is some sort of "allrounder", it performs at supercar level under almost all conditions. Is it enough to justify it's high price tag? I don't know. The only thing I know is that you're not buying the top model, you're buying the "entry level" model. The 997 GT2 will follow, so does the 997 Turbo S sooner or later.

    We should ask ourselves which car suits us best, not only which one is faster. And we should stop with insults and emotional statements because in the end, the truth always lies in the middle...or somewhere else. May I remind you guys of the SL55 AMG? We reviewed this car only a few months after the "SL55 is faster than 996 Turbo" hype. And surprise, surprise...the SL55 wasn't faster.

    So please do yourself a favor and relax. We're soon doing some sort of "real life performance" test of various cars, including the F430, the Z06 and of course the 997 Turbo. And since this is going a back-to-back review (meaning that ALL cars will be together on the street at the same time), we'll know the TRUTH very soon. The best part about it: all drivers are sportscar enthusiasts and some even own several different brands at the same time. So you can expect a honest review of real life performance.

    On July 1st, we're already having a "meeting" with various cars during our Rennteam summer party near Stuttgart (sorry, by invitation only...if you want to come and you OWN a supersportscar, pass me a PM and I'll see what I can do for you). Since I'm not sure if I'm going to have the necessary 3000 km on my 997 TT engine, I doubt we'll do a serious shoutout that day or the day after.

    Be patient, the truth will come out but to make it clear: the 997 Turbo, the F430, the Gallardo and the Z06 are pretty close one to each other regarding straight line performance, no doubt about it. The question is: which one can be driven faster by a non-professional driver?! Unfortunately, the Z06 driver is a professional racing driver and he'll give me a very hard time, he already "promised" to a friend. Can't wait...

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ review

    RC, the only thing you wrote that I have to disagree with is that the Z06 does not make profit. It does. The engine is not that expensive to produce and the structural mods arent either.

    Its retail price is very close to a BMW 6 series. The BMW is made in Bavaria, loaded with technology. The Z06 is made in Kentucky. It uses simple race parts that are relatively inexpensive in the US. The Z06 engine was a off the shelf item from a race car engine builder. The engine cost per unit is now even lower that GM is building them.


    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    Well said RC , can't wait for the review.

    Are you guys using Nick's F430 for the shoot out?

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    I posted a topic of a similar frame of mind, giving my own point of view. It is mostly based upon point #7 on your post.

    Funny how we had the same frame of mind as a result of the AZ post/F430vs 997TT bashing/ranting

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    Quote:
    Hurst said:
    I posted a topic of a similar frame of mind, giving my own point of view. It is mostly based upon point #7 on your post.

    Funny how we had the same frame of mind as a result of the AZ post/F430vs 997TT bashing/ranting



    Read both, agree with both. Good job, guys!

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    its very true that competition is good! the world kept singing the praises of the 360 and then the Gallardo came out, making Ferrari run to the drawing board. in the never ending see-saw battle, i expected Porsche to come out swinging. perhaps i'm wrong but all they did was match the performance of the others. not to impressive if you ask me, as the the newer F430 is already a year old!

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ review

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    RC, the only thing you wrote that I have to disagree with is that the Z06 does not make profit. It does. The engine is not that expensive to produce and the structural mods arent either.

    Its retail price is very close to a BMW 6 series. The BMW is made in Bavaria, loaded with technology. The Z06 is made in Kentucky. It uses simple race parts that are relatively inexpensive in the US. The Z06 engine was a off the shelf item from a race car engine builder. The engine cost per unit is now even lower that GM is building them.





    I'm afraid the "inside" information we habe about Z06 engineering/manufacturing is different from yours. The Z06 is NOT a modded C06.

    Our sources indicate that GM doesn't earn a cent with the Z06, this is the reason for the limitation to aprox. 6000 units per year and I'm pretty sure they could sell more for this price tag.

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    Quote:
    mkultra said:
    its very true that competition is good! the world kept singing the praises of the 360 and then the Gallardo came out, making Ferrari run to the drawing board. in the never ending see-saw battle, i expected Porsche to come out swinging. perhaps i'm wrong but all they did was match the performance of the others. not to impressive if you ask me, as the the newer F430 is already a year old!



    If you look more closely, Porsche did their homework pretty well. Same track performance as the lighter, more powerful and semi-slicks equipped F430 with street tires? For me, this is truely impressive. Straight line performance? Well...with Tiptronic S around one second faster from 0-200 kph (125 mph), which isn't bad. And I won't talk about the 0-100 kph (62 mph) performance of 3.7 seconds because this is almost unbeatable.

    Another example for the 997 Turbo progress: the 993 Turbo and the 996 Turbo. From 0-200 kph, almost same performance. Now compare the 996 Turbo to the 997 Turbo: over 2 seconds better performance for the 997 Turbo.

    The 911 Turbo never has been the beauty queen, it has always been the beast. Over here in Germany, it is easier to get a F430 now than a 997 Turbo. Of course this will change after a few months, no doubt about it. But the F430 is also more expensive, even if the difference is only around 15000 Euro, depending on the options maybe more.
    I know I claimed 30000 Euro once but I was talking about a base Turbo (almost fully equipped) and a well equipped F430.

    Still...15000 Euro is already a different price class.

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    well said christian , i hope this thread will stop the unnecessary bashing...

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ review

    RC

    i quote you in all..

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ review

    Love my Z. Would love a 430 and a 997 TT so I can make my own determination. Let me see how the finances go in the next couple of months (ha ha). All great cars. Can't wait to meet a new 997TT at the track.

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ review

    im sure that in the city nothing will beat the TT . trust me!

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    Christian, I agree here with you.
    BTW, this friday in Auto Bild we will have another comparison between F430, Gallardo, 997 Turbo and Vette Z06!!
    Article is little bit different in results and final opinion then Auto Zeitung's one... So, no more debate till friday.


    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Christian, I agree here with you.
    BTW, this friday in Auto Bild we will have another comparison between F430, Gallardo, 997 Turbo and Vette Z06!!
    Article is little bit different in results and final opinion then Auto Zeitung's one... So, no more debate till friday.


    kreso! please scan the article when u will have it! we dont jhave auto bild here

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    Quote:
    Duncan said:
    It's wrong, the 430 had PZero Rosso on the test not Corsa
    look the pic
    http://www.autozeitung.de/index.php?page...&current=16

    http://www.autozeitung.de/index.php?page...&current=18

    http://www.autozeitung.de/index.php?page...&current=30

    PZero Corsa
    http://www.autozeitung.de/index.php?page...&current=14



    Thanks Duncan.

    The f430 had standard street tires and a rear license plate. That should put RC's "ringer" theory to rest.

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=240564&an=0&page=2#240564

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    Both of you are forgetting that the F430 times are from a previous test in which they misprinted the 0-200 times as 12.2 when they were actually 13.2. The Turbo is faster than the F430, deal with it.

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    As a matter of fact Auto Bild tested F430F1 equiped with Corsa's. Pictures on Auto Zeitung web page are the same ones I have on DVD-ROM that I got from person who actually writes for Auto Zeitung. Ringer F430 or not... They drove it.

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    Auto Zeitung called the tires Pirelli P Zero Rosso Corsa but it's Rosso not Corsa. Auto Bild the same?

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    As a matter of fact Auto Bild tested F430F1 equiped with Corsa's. Pictures on Auto Zeitung web page are the same ones I have on DVD-ROM that I got from person who actually writes for Auto Zeitung. Ringer F430 or not... They drove it.



    We are talking about Auto Zeiting not Auto Bild. The pictures show standard tires not Corsas.

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    F430F1(Yellow one) that Auto Bild tested was equiped with Corsa's.

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    F430F1(Yellow one) that Auto Bild tested was equiped with Corsa's.



    Different car, different test, different magazine, OK!

    But, Auto Zeiting was no ringer!!!

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    No, not a ringer, just a misprint that they forgot to correct. We have been over this before. Do you really think that Autozeitung managed to run over a full second faster 0-200 than any other F430 tested anywhere? Come on I know you hate Porsche and would love it if the F430 was faster than the Turbo but this is simply not the case. Too bad.

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    We are talking about Auto Zeiting not Auto Bild. The pictures show standard tires not Corsas.



    The tire shown on the pictures is the Bridgestone Potenza BUT the car tested (with numbers) in Auto Zeitung had Corsas. Period.

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    The f430 had standard street tires and a rear license plate. That should put RC's "ringer" theory to rest.



    1. the car TESTED (not the one on the pictures!) had Corsas
    2. since when is it allowed to drive with a rear license plate only in Europe? Look at the rear license plate and since you seem to be a clever boy, tell me WHAT KIND of license plate this is in Italy?

    Guys, I really don't understand all this stuff. If you want to know if a 997 Turbo is faster than a F430, just wait until we have our shootout. Our other editor-in-chief owns a F430 Spider, zzboba our co-Admin and friend owns a F430 Coupe, so just tell me: where's the problem, I don't get it?!

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    Christian, as a F430F1 Spider owner and a person who tried both versions of 997 Turbo I can say that 997 Turbo is faster then F430. In both versions! And it is faster on the track also, specially when you put Cup's or Corsa's(soon to be available in N-rated version for 997 GT3 and Turbo)!
    Guys, Gallardo is faster on any track then F430 and Turbo is little bit faster then Gallardo also...
    Hope you are all happy now...

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Christian, as a F430F1 Spider owner and a person who tried both versions of 997 Turbo I can say that 997 Turbo is faster then F430. In both versions! And it is faster on the track also, specially when you put Cup's or Corsa's(soon to be available in N-rated version for 997 GT3 and Turbo)!
    Guys, Gallardo is faster on any track then F430 and Turbo is little bit faster then Gallardo also...
    Hope you are all happy now...



    ...and the Audi R8 will beat them all on track with lousy 420hp!! hehe..

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    Motorart V 8
    Hubraum 4308 ccm
    Aufladung Sauger
    PS - UMin 490 PS (360 kW) - 8500/Min
    Nm - UMin 465 Nm - 5250/Min
    Motorlage/Antrieb Mittelmotor/Heck
    Gänge/Schaltung 6/sequentiell
    Test in Auto Zeitung 08/2005
    Gewicht 1520 kg
    0 - 80 km/h 2,9 s
    0 - 100 km/h 3,8 s
    0 - 120 km/h 5,3 s
    0 - 130 km/h - s
    0 - 140 km/h 6,5 s
    0 - 160 km/h 8,3 s
    0 - 180 km/h 10,6 s
    0 - 200 km/h 13,2 s

    This test was misprinted with the number 12,2. Auto Zeitung took these numbers and just inserted them into the "comparison test".

    Re: 997 Turbo - controversial discussions/claims after AZ re

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    The f430 had standard street tires and a rear license plate. That should put RC's "ringer" theory to rest.



    1. the car TESTED (not the one on the pictures!) had Corsas
    2. since when is it allowed to drive with a rear license plate only in Europe? Look at the rear license plate and since you seem to be a clever boy, tell me WHAT KIND of license plate this is in Italy?

    Guys, I really don't understand all this stuff. If you want to know if a 997 Turbo is faster than a F430, just wait until we have our shootout. Our other editor-in-chief owns a F430 Spider, zzboba our co-Admin and friend owns a F430 Coupe, so just tell me: where's the problem, I don't get it?!


    The car TESTED had PZero Rosso Corsas, look the details
    http://www.autozeitung.de/index.php?page...7&current=3


     
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