Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill - Page1

Jun 23, 2006 12:39:10 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Nick_Athens

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Quote:
Nick_Athens said:
Quote:
Crash said:

Nick, you are mistaken.
Ferrari builds as many cars as it can sell, but the catch is, they can't build as many. Also, MASS PRODUCTION has nothing to do with the word SUPERCAR. You can call a car exotic (which the F430 isn't, at 4000+ units per year) or mass produced. Then, there is the supercar, but this only designates the car's performance envelope. The new Corvette Z06 is a supercar, no doubt about it, but it's nowhere near being an exotic. The Turbo and the 430 are also supercars, and they aren't exotic either (4000+ and 6000 units annually).

I speak about Porsche cars Vs Ferrari cars.. (I mean Cayenne Boxster Cayman 911s 4doors cars maybe in the future busses etc) For this reason As porsche IS a mass production car if you search in mobile.de you will find 996turbos SO CHEAP (sometimes cheaper than 993tt)
The famous law of Demand and Supply...

Now if you find 997tt same exotic car as F430 i can take you a ride to see the reaction of people when they see a 997tt and F430

Listen, Nick, I don't care for the reaction of other people. If I wanted that, I'd buy a yellow Murcielago, install a loud exhaust, and drive up and down the main street.
Sports cars are bought for the purpose of driving. If public reaction is your goal, then you aren't buying them for that reason.

Also, don't foeget that Ferrari also intends to increase production, by as much as humanly possible, so your chivalrous dreams about scarce Ferraris, arriving on white horses, will prove to be short-lived in a few years. After all, these are CARS, meant to be DRIVEN. A true enthusiast won't care about resale, at least not much.
Also, the 996 Turbos you saw for half the price (not bad, for a 7-year-old car) are all high-mileage vehicles.
I'll tell you what: take your 430, put 80.000 kilometres on it and try to sell it in five years. If you get even close to what those Turbos are fetching for it, I'll buy several dozen Ferrari shirts and wear a different one each day. And if I don't appear too worried, it's because I'm not

.

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Jun 23, 2006 1:09:24 PM

Nick_Athens: Senior; Loc: Greece , Greece; Posts: 710, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 23, 2004; Reply to: Crash

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
Nick_Athens said:
Quote:
Crash said:

Nick, you are mistaken.
Ferrari builds as many cars as it can sell, but the catch is, they can't build as many. Also, MASS PRODUCTION has nothing to do with the word SUPERCAR. You can call a car exotic (which the F430 isn't, at 4000+ units per year) or mass produced. Then, there is the supercar, but this only designates the car's performance envelope. The new Corvette Z06 is a supercar, no doubt about it, but it's nowhere near being an exotic. The Turbo and the 430 are also supercars, and they aren't exotic either (4000+ and 6000 units annually).

I speak about Porsche cars Vs Ferrari cars.. (I mean Cayenne Boxster Cayman 911s 4doors cars maybe in the future busses etc) For this reason As porsche IS a mass production car if you search in mobile.de you will find 996turbos SO CHEAP (sometimes cheaper than 993tt)
The famous law of Demand and Supply...

Now if you find 997tt same exotic car as F430 i can take you a ride to see the reaction of people when they see a 997tt and F430

Listen, Nick, I don't care for the reaction of other people. If I wanted that, I'd buy a yellow Murcielago, install a loud exhaust, and drive up and down the main street.
Sports cars are bought for the purpose of driving. If public reaction is your goal, then you aren't buying them for that reason.

Also, don't foeget that Ferrari also intends to increase production, by as much as humanly possible, so your chivalrous dreams about scarce Ferraris, arriving on white horses, will prove to be short-lived in a few years. After all, these are CARS, meant to be DRIVEN. A true enthusiast won't care about resale, at least not much.
Also, the 996 Turbos you saw for half the price (not bad, for a 7-year-old car) are all high-mileage vehicles.
I'll tell you what: take your 430, put 80.000 kilometres on it and try to sell it in five years. If you get even close to what those Turbos are fetching for it, I'll buy several dozen Ferrari shirts and wear a different one each day. And if I don't appear too worried, it's because I'm not .

You didnt understand my point... I didnt ever speak about the appearance.. I spoke about the reaction of people because people when they see EXOTIC CARS react...
So the point was that when they see a 997tt or any 911 porsche are not going to react.. on the other hand test a F430 to understand...
You were the one that told that neither F430 nor 911tt are exotic cars... This is what i tried to explain to you..

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Jun 23, 2006 1:17:12 PM

Alan(NJ): Pilot; Loc: Paramus NJ USA; Posts: 403, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 29, 2002; Reply to: RC

Wow I just translated "stealth richness"

using babel fish - it came out as:

"Heimlichkeitreichtum"

that's some tongue twister for us "had-take-German-to-be-a-science-major" type guys

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Jun 23, 2006 1:22:25 PM

mawyatt: Co-Pilot; Loc: Florida, Clearwater; Posts: 283, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2006; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

JimFlat6,

I think you are correct. I remember when i found out in 96 Porsche was going to liquid engine cooling for the 911. The reasoning was the obvious more hp/displacement because of better head cooling and they could go the 4 valves/cylinder but also the liquid cooled engine is quiter because the cooling fluid acts as a sound buffer and this would help them meet the increasing sound restrictions in Europe.

So your analysis makes sense for the 2008 sound requirements.

Mike

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Jun 23, 2006 1:37:11 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Nick_Athens

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Yes, I get what you're trying to say. But still, Ferraris aren't exotic, as production isn't restricted and there are several thousand made every year. Neither are Porsches. So what it all comes down to is driving and this is where both cars shine.

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Jun 23, 2006 2:07:25 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Troll troll troll your boat, gently down the stream, merily merily... is that how it went?

Nick, several reasons

1* Mechanical reason: Turbocharged versions do not sound as sporty as the atmospheric version when you have an atmospheric version to compare the to. So it will never sound like a GT3 or Carrera-PSE.

2* Conceptual reason: Like Mike said, TT buyers are not part of the Tubi fan boys club. The TT was not made for La Joya. The TT is an everyday car and the larger part of its owner base are not looking for bells and whistles, the want downright class leading performance, more bite and less bark sort of say. A standard loud exhaust such as the GT3 would actually be a draw back to many of its prospective owners. I now this is very hard concept to grasp for you but its true, especially in Europe, and even more so in Germany. The TT is more GT'ish intended even though at the same time it will kick you F430's butt silly. Thats why the 996TT didn't have a PSE option, the standard exhaust was considered as sporty as its going to get. But you can always go aftermnarket, like the Tubi fan boys, so were is the problem?

I know the exhaust sound of the 997TT is a very important cause of concern for you, afterall its the only thing you will be left with when ever you encounter one on the streets as you see it ride into the horizon leaving you behind, but I think it's the owner's right to decide what sound he wants and not you even though you will be the one getting the most of it's exhaust

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Jun 23, 2006 2:16:29 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

I doubt Porsche put too much thought into the exhaust note beyond functional constraints because they know that probably up to 50% of owners are going to put upwards of $25k in mods into these cars, with wheels and exhaust at the top of the list.

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Jun 23, 2006 3:00:39 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Crash

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Crash, nothing is preventing Ferrari from building more capacity if there were so inclined. The chose not to do so to protect the brand. Porsche opted to chase profits and dump the buyer.

RC, Carlos, I believe Porsche has publicly stated their competition for the 997TT is the 430, Gallardo, AM and MB. These other cars look sound and act like super sport cars. The TT acts like one but certainly does not look and sound like one. But I guess that is your point.

Mike windfall also means sudden gain or advantage. Porsche sells the car but get additional gain/advantage by a unhappy customer trying to make his/her car sound like a high perf. car should. Can you imagine what your CGT would be like without the glorious exhaust under acceleration? UGH!

SoCAlAlan, you should have put your name on the list because I suspect you will see your car within a year. My dealer told me the list is no indication as to when you can get delivery. It is far shorter than one is lead to believe.

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Jun 23, 2006 3:21:05 PM

SoCal Alan: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Orange County , United States; Posts: 7268, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Quote:
nberry said:
SoCAlAlan, you should have put your name on the list because I suspect you will see your car within a year. My dealer told me the list is no indication as to when you can get delivery. It is far shorter than one is lead to believe.

I did and I hope your're right!

The problem also is that there aren't too many slots allocated to the dealers for this year. I believe Newport Auto Center has something like 6 and Circle Porsche in Long Beach has 2. So alot of people need to fall off the list in order for me to get my car this year.

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Jun 23, 2006 3:34:17 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: nberry

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrilled

It would suck imo if I can't get the car w/ PSE. Don't know if I'd go after market or not. REALLY like the fact I can switch OFF the PSE when I want to. Whether it's because I'm having a conversation w/ somone and don't want it loud or if it's first thing in the am and I'm commuting to work (I like everything quiet in the am) or like yesterday was going a bit fast when I saw a cop on the side of the road and was able to hit the sport button turning off the PSE before I went passed. I think the PSE link to the sport button is brilliant. Top down it's sick. 50% louder than w/ the top up, windows down. Shame my turbo cab will probably sound castrated in comparison.

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Jun 23, 2006 3:49:39 PM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrilled

I've heard all the aftermarket exhausts for the 996 Turbos. Not musicical when compared to reg 996 or GT3 with sport exhaust- just louder note and a bit gruffer. The turbochargers muffle the music- nothing you can really do about it , IMO.Porsche, who would never turn a blind eye to any money making scheme on the options list, probably realized the same . Don't see how it will be different for these new turbo models.

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Jun 23, 2006 3:54:11 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: SoCal Alan

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

With the market sideways and interest rates going up, the list will get much shorter. Also, once on the street, the 997TT with its rather pedestrian appearance and its resemblance to the 996TT will get people thinking do I want to spend that kind of money on that car?

Also, I suspect Porsche will do something about the exhaust in the future. By waiting, its a win win for you.

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Jun 23, 2006 4:05:24 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: Crash

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
Nick_Athens said:
Quote:
zzboba said:
my F430 exhaust is stock. and it's extremely loud when i want it to be extremely loud and it's... erm... loud when i don't want it to be extremly loud. just by throttle control.

and sound is always great.

sometimes i'm under the impression that you have some problem with the F430. but why?

I can explain why.. Porsche cars are just MASS PRODUCTION CARS not SUPERCARS (you want to accept it or not, this is the truth)
For this reason Porsche builds as many cars as it can sell.. Ferrari on the other hand not...

Nick, you are mistaken.
Ferrari builds as many cars as it can sell, but the catch is, they can't build as many. Also, MASS PRODUCTION has nothing to do with the word SUPERCAR. You can call a car exotic (which the F430 isn't, at 4000+ units per year) or mass produced. Then, there is the supercar, but this only designates the car's performance envelope. The new Corvette Z06 is a supercar, no doubt about it, but it's nowhere near being an exotic. The Turbo and the 430 are also supercars, and they aren't exotic either (4000+ and 6000 units annually).

You have a strange opinion of what makes an exotic. What current production car do you consider exotic then ?

Guess a car like the 2000 whatever Ford Thunderbird is an exotic even though it was a sales disaster and didn't sell worth beans because there's only a few of them around. It's not just about how many are produced. If that were the case a car that is a total sales flop w/ sales of 500 units would be considered an exotic. It's also based on demand (length of wait list to buy) and price. And probably to some extent what people percieve to be an exotic. IMO the higher the price times the demand & factored in the lowish production #'s and people's perception of the car makes the 430 one of the most exotic cars currently in production, period. What current production car is more exotic? Not many that I can think of. The new Lambo, AM Vanquish,,,,,ahhhhhhhhh what else ?

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Jun 23, 2006 5:37:23 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Thought of one more - The 599

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Jun 23, 2006 6:33:43 PM

LoranTw: Senior; Loc: Canada; Posts: 569, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 14, 2006; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Thanks but I'll still take the 997 Turbo...and I suspect most here would agree...:-) all things considered.

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Jun 23, 2006 7:00:52 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: LoranTw

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Quote:
LoranTw said:
Thanks but I'll still take the 997 Turbo...and I suspect most here would agree...:-) all things considered.

I'm taking one too. PCCB turbo CAB though. One of each :-))

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Jun 23, 2006 7:43:51 PM

svtrader1: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 821, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2003; Reply to: LoranTw

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Quote:
LoranTw said:
Thanks but I'll still take the 997 Turbo...and I suspect most here would agree...:-) all things considered.

I think you should speak for yourself only.

http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat...=12&fpart=1

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Jun 23, 2006 8:07:00 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: svtrader1

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Quote:
LoranTw said:
Thanks but I'll still take the 997 Turbo...and I suspect most here would agree...:-) all things considered.

I think you should speak for yourself only.

Funny, I thought that when he wrote " I suspect ..." he made it pretty clear that he was speaking for himself.

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Jun 23, 2006 8:20:13 PM

svtrader1: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 821, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2003; Reply to: fritz

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Quote:
LoranTw said:
Thanks but I'll still take the 997 Turbo...and I suspect most here would agree...:-) all things considered.

I think you should speak for yourself only.

Funny, I thought that when he wrote " I suspect ..." he made it pretty clear that he was speaking for himself.

"I'll still take the 997 Turbo" speaking for himself.." and I suspect most here would agree" speaking for others.

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Jun 23, 2006 8:23:47 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: svtrader1

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Quote:
LoranTw said:
Thanks but I'll still take the 997 Turbo...and I suspect most here would agree...:-) all things considered.

I think you should speak for yourself only.

Funny, I thought that when he wrote " I suspect ..." he made it pretty clear that he was speaking for himself.

"I'll still take the 997 Turbo" speaking for himself.." and I suspect most here would agree" speaking for others.

It just isn't worth it .....

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Jun 23, 2006 8:26:22 PM

svtrader1: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 821, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2003; Reply to: fritz

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Quote:
LoranTw said:
Thanks but I'll still take the 997 Turbo...and I suspect most here would agree...:-) all things considered.

I think you should speak for yourself only.

Funny, I thought that when he wrote " I suspect ..." he made it pretty clear that he was speaking for himself.

"I'll still take the 997 Turbo" speaking for himself.." and I suspect most here would agree" speaking for others.

It just isn't worth it .....

I suspect you're right?

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Jun 23, 2006 8:34:46 PM

Hurst: Veteran; Loc: Potomac, MD; Posts: 1255, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2005; Reply to: svtrader1

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

regardless about the qualities of the sound, I think we should agree that Porsche should offer PSE on the turbo for those who enjoy a more vigorous sound .

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Jun 23, 2006 8:39:47 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: svtrader1

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

STRADALE: The 997 also has relatively few units made and they also sell as much as they produce. So, by your definition it would be an exotic.
And yes, I agree about the 599. That car truly is an exotic, but not the 430.

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Jun 23, 2006 9:23:54 PM

LoranTw: Senior; Loc: Canada; Posts: 569, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 14, 2006; Reply to: svtrader1

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Quote:
LoranTw said:
Thanks but I'll still take the 997 Turbo...and I suspect most here would agree...:-) all things considered.

I think you should speak for yourself only.

http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat...=12&fpart=1

Let's make this simple for you...I am on the 997 Turbo forum to learn more about the car...not speculation about my Ferrari is better than yours, blah blah blah..bullshit...

I wasn't speaking for anyone but myself..but deductive reasoning would suggest that most here are passionate about Porsches..and more specifically 997TT...if the majority felt otherwise why would they be here...help me out..am I missing something

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Jun 23, 2006 9:26:35 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: LoranTw

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Loran, just ignore it. He won't go away, but you'll save yourself a lot of nerves

.

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Jun 23, 2006 9:36:55 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59581, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: zzboba

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Quote:
zzboba said:
my F430 exhaust is stock. and it's extremely loud when i want it to be extremely loud and it's... erm... loud when i don't want it to be extremly loud. just by throttle control.

and sound is always great.

sometimes i'm under the impression that you have some problem with the F430. but why?

No problem...this is the Porsche Forum. What do you expect, to keep the flags up for the F430?

Have you seen me bragging about the F430 on the Ferrari Forum?

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Jun 23, 2006 9:41:01 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59581, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: MKW

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrilled

Quote:
MKW said:
I've heard all the aftermarket exhausts for the 996 Turbos. Not musicical when compared to reg 996 or GT3 with sport exhaust- just louder note and a bit gruffer. The turbochargers muffle the music- nothing you can really do about it , IMO.Porsche, who would never turn a blind eye to any money making scheme on the options list, probably realized the same . Don't see how it will be different for these new turbo models.

You REALLY didn't hear my exhaust on the 996 Turbo.

Cargraphic exhaust, was around 8000 DM at that time, almost 4000 Euro. Without install. Ouch. But worth every cent. I just hope Cargraphic comes up with a similar exhaust for the Turbo. BTW: the manufacturer of the exhaust was Phoenix, a supplier for GT3 racing cars and even 996 Turbo racing cars (24h of...). But not cheap.

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Jun 23, 2006 9:57:55 PM

OCEAN: Expert; Loc: US; Posts: 1334, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 28, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrilled

Quote:
We Germans are experts when it comes to "stealth richness".
We are those who invented the de-badging of expensive Mercedes and BMW models. Most BMW 7-series and Mercedes S-class models are driving around without any model designation over here. This even applies to the 5-series, the E-class and other models from Audi, etc.
My Cayenne Turbo Powerkit is the best example: in the US, people would put a "Turbo S" badge on the rear, I have...NONE.

well said "stealth richness" make a good name for a band .

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Jun 23, 2006 10:50:59 PM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrilled

Quote:
RC said:
[you REALLY didn't hear my exhaust on the 996 Turbo. Cargraphic exhaust, was around 8000 DM at that time, almost 4000 Euro. Without install. Ouch. But worth every cent. I just hope Cargraphic comes up with a similar exhaust for the Turbo. BTW: the manufacturer of the exhaust was Phoenix, a supplier for GT3 racing cars and even 996 Turbo racing cars (24h of...). But not cheap.

I've heard a Cargraphic ( imported through Florida - is it the same as your old Euro one ? ) on a 996 Turbo . Again, it the lacked of the classic higher pitched 911 motor tones from the driver's seat , IMO, due to the turbochargers. How a particular exhaust sounds to bystanders , I don't care , as I paid for and am driving the dang car and that's all that matters !

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Jun 24, 2006 1:33:51 AM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12680, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
zzboba said:
my F430 exhaust is stock. and it's extremely loud when i want it to be extremely loud and it's... erm... loud when i don't want it to be extremly loud. just by throttle control.

and sound is always great.

sometimes i'm under the impression that you have some problem with the F430. but why?

No problem...this is the Porsche Forum. What do you expect, to keep the flags up for the F430? Have you seen me bragging about the F430 on the Ferrari Forum?

The F430 doesn't need you to keep the flags up.

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Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Wow I just translated "stealth richness"

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrilled

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrilled

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrilled

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrilled

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrilled

Re: Now that most reviewers love the car but are less thrill

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