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    Jun 4, 2006 3:21:42 PM

    cookie monster
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    Autouno describes BMW Z M Coupe as Cayman S for Nutters

    Today, read on Autouno Magazine's front page June issue describing the BMW Z M Coupe as Cayman S for Nutters. I read some details on the article and it looks like BMW is really beefing up its full M lineup and its Z lineup. The Z4 M convertible supposedly propels the car from 0-100 in 5.0 seconds flat and it looks like the Power Game is really on. Even the normal 3 series lineup get a Twin Turbo 335i version and this is all before the rollout of the V8 300 + horsepower M3 coupe. I have this feeling that the powergame is really on again and BMW is taking the lead (of course we also have the SLK 55 AMG 300+ hp mini slr on steroids) by rolling out the M Coupe.

    I suddenly have this feeling that Porsche will definitely be under some pressure to upgrade its full lineup soon as well as its antiquated fiddly tiptronic system (BMW's SMG and Audi's gearbox...). It is to my belief that Porsche is never about raw power but about handling, balance and proportion. Some will argue that there is no better candidate to pick except the Corvette Z6 if you wanna get a car 2/3 the price of a porsche that could put dust on even the carrera s (or head to head with turbo).

    But I mean for Autouno to call BMW Z M Coupe as Cayman S for nutters definitely carries a negative tonality in my mind. I can't help but start to think that no matter how Porsche strives to focus on balance and proportion, it is definitely under a lot of pressure to upgrade itself. I mean even the 330i or 335i can give the 987s a run for its money and for the much touted cayman s, at 295 hp... I can't stop but think that it is only a matter of time before Porsche must give it at least 300+ hp. Even the Carrera S (to me the base carrera, the legend, may now only be marganally called fast BY COMPARISON) must upgrade itself soon in terms of the power department. Can someone shed some light on this? Of course the 911 Turbo is still the Turbo and it is still most respectable but any other lineup just feels a bit too ordinary. Porsche has a legacy and it is to me DA SPORTSCAR... A Porsche is not only balanced but also fast but given what I had read lately, I can't help but have this dismal feeling that Porsche might have no choice but to get into this powergame to keep up its reputation. Afterall, Porsche is a Porsche... there is no substitute right?

    Jun 4, 2006 7:53:39 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: cookie monster

    Re: Autouno describes BMW Z M Coupe as Cayman S for Nutters

    Quote:
    ptcja said:and this is all before the rollout of the V8 300 + horsepower M3 coupe.


    New M3 is supposed to have around 415hp...

    Jun 5, 2006 4:51:11 AM

    cookie monster
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    Re: Autouno describes BMW Z M Coupe as Cayman S for Nutters

    sorry my mistake... also double checked and the magazine is autouno so it makes it more relevant for Porsche to upgrade itself. The M3 will definitely give the Carrera S a very good run for its money. So really, what is it with the Porsche department on Power then?

    Jun 5, 2006 1:52:24 PM

    adrift
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    But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    How many people that shop for a 911 also shop for a BMW? Somehow, the two don't seem to overlap that much for me. No matter how sporty, the bimmers always come across as less "focused", IMO. They are nice, and sometimes very fast cars, but I don't think there is that much cross-over.

    Then again, maybe I am crazy.

    Jun 5, 2006 2:17:47 PM

    WAY
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    I did. I considered the Z4 M coupe very seriously along with the 997 and the Cayman and ended up with the 997. Call me crazy if you would!

    Jun 5, 2006 2:50:54 PM

    dreamcar
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    Link to Autocar article on Z4M and comparison with the Cayman S I scanned and posted on the Sports Car Board, for those that may have missed it.

    www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=230638&an=0&page=1#230638

    And for the benefit of certain Cayman enthusiasts here, who have wrongly accused me of constantly criticising the Cayman, I would have one everytime over a Z4M.

    Jun 5, 2006 4:46:00 PM

    toplad
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    I'm thinking of test driving the Z4 Coupe actually. Can't hurt.

    Porsche BHP seems to be enough, the head line figures aren't that impressive in the Cayman and basic 997, but when it comes to using the power not much in the same class can keep up with them on the road or track. The 911 uses its modest power output even more effectively due to the engine position and being able to get on the throttle early and deploy the power, that's more important than headline power figures. Give me a car with well setup suspension and a compliant chassis any day over a car that has excess power which you can't use most of the time anyway. This is the main problem with TVR's in my view.
    edit after reading the article

    Sounds good, but I suspected the ride would be too hard for UK roads. Like the looks also, but it might not fit me very, well being 6'2 and like having a straight legged driving position. Gonna test drive one asap.

    Jun 5, 2006 10:09:33 PM

    SciFrog Offline
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    Porsche is not playing the HP game, they try to rely on great package/setup and driving experience. If you just want huge HP, Porsche is not for you, just get a Z06.

    Jun 6, 2006 3:11:39 AM

    cookie monster
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    Yes agree very much that Porsche is all about ownership experience, balance, proportion and control. It's like whether or not you can control the power or you let the power control you. However, I work IT and I will never forget what one of my friends once said back in the modem days when 14.4 was the speed and he said 28.8 was plenty. C'mon now even 1 M is considered as pretty humble. My feeling is that yes, great package and great setup can go a long way but no one will disagree that the Cayman, the Boxster and even the 911 base/s version can use more power. I cud be wrong but my feeling is that if Porsche were to upgrade the full lineup (they are doing it albeit slow, every iteration of the lineup like the turbo squeezes more HP but definitely below expectation more for marketing reason maybe)... let's say bump up boxster to 280 and boxster s to 295 or 300 and push the cayman to 325 and the base 911 and s to around 380, 400 hp, with everything else being equal (same package/setup), no one would complain at all. To me, the power game can be summed up with 2 words "it's never enough." Of course I could be wrong maybe a few out there would wanna downgrade in terms of power but I doubt it. It's just like bandwidth, it can never be "TOO MUCH." Plus the experience in my opinion would definitely be ENHANCED with more power. There is obviously a full crowd out there that plays the male ego thing writing on the back of the napkin the 0-100 time showing off power at the next bar watching sunday night football.

    Lately, as I read more thread, it looks like Porsche AG is really starting to upset not only the purists (who feels upset that PAG is diluting its full lineup... ironic as it is that the cayenne had now become the top seller reaping massive profits for a company that had nothing to do with the wilderness) by its moving more towards a Mercedes or BMW direction (lack of focus as touted by some and not staying true to the legacy) but also laymen fans. It does seem to me that Porsche is always a step or two behind others in rolling out its product line (like its antiquated tiptronic system on the turbo as opposed to using double clutch which had been deployed on many competitors like AUDI long time ago) simply because of its marketing plan. As Jeremy Clarkson said, he couldn't live with the fact that a car was not designed to be the best it could be simply because of marketing reason. But then again, you never know right? Maybe very soon we will see the Ferrari version of Cayenne or Lymbo version of a 4 door coupe.

    Jun 6, 2006 1:18:28 PM

    charliepug
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    For Porsche HP, it's $$ time... has always been, if one feels 997S with 355hp not enough one can buy 29kws more for a cool$26,000 aussie dollars, or pay extra $14,000 for the GT3 version. But for me it's the "package" that's worth every cent of my hard earned dollar.

    Jun 6, 2006 3:08:57 PM

    cookie monster
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    charliepug I remember you started out with boxster and now finally gotten your 997s black/black? wish I could follow the same route... yes my hard earned $$$. For sure I agree but I only feel that the ingenious marketing scheme of PAG is really sometimes a bit too much in terms of purposefully squeezing more hard earned money from me than they really ought to. They are just so slow in rolling out similar systems like that of SMG or AUDI and it was done on purpose.

    Jun 6, 2006 5:07:53 PM

    toplad
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    ptcja

    Clarkson talks rubbish, every car made today is made to not exceed the flagship model. All manufactures produce cars limited in some fashion due to cost and pecking order. Porsche is now different to any other car manufacture on the planet and yet it's regular lampooned for do this. I'm surprised people on here haven't noticed this already.
    Nothing is made the best it can possible be in the motor world, all products (apart for race cars) are made to an agenda and cost. If this wasn't the case everyone would just buy the cheaper car that goes faster in a straight line and yet still offer the same levels of comfort and features than the more top of the range model expensive model and the cars companies would lose their cash cow.

    Jun 6, 2006 11:12:20 PM

    Malmsteen
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    BMW got no class!
    i have been seeing street mods on bmw everywhere..

    where are the porsches? i hardly see one in a week

    Jun 8, 2006 5:44:28 PM

    VGA18
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    Quote:
    Malmsteen said:
    BMW got no class!
    i have been seeing street mods on bmw everywhere..

    where are the porsches? i hardly see one in a week





    When you drive a bmw you drive the car same brand as 3.16
    nothing special

    Porsche is Porsche , i'd take any porsche to any bmw

    For the Cayman S hp issue, if they make cayman s around 310hp it will definitely very fast but i also kills the 997 Carrera sales. People go and get cayman s because of it is cheaper than a carrera. So that is politics and normal.

    For z4 m coupe or convertible , i choose SLK 55, it has much torq more hp and much better design. I dunoo if they have 7-g if yes also a nice tranny.

    E46 M3 vs 996 Carrera(02) which one you choose.
    which one is quick
    Which one is fater
    Which one has very nice design
    Dont wanna talk too much

    Always Porsche >> bmw

    Jun 8, 2006 6:41:17 PM

    0two9
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    bmw doesn't compete with porsche except in it's roadsters type of car. The M3 is not meant to truly compete against the porsche 9/11--- the Z4 and the boxster on the other hand- yeah, they compete- I'm sure an individual buying an SLK looks at a boxster and a Z4 as relatively equal cars and they are in terms of price and what you get.

    In the segment of the roadsters--- The MZ4 is FASTER than the Boxster S and has more value for the dollar. However, if your a porsche purist-- the Mz4 isn't anything special at all. The Cayman vs the Mcoupe- the M coupe wins that too.... it has a stronger chassis than that of the cayman and is set up a bit harder too.

    However- again, if your a porsche guy- the M coupe isn't your cup of tea.

    -Personally- porsche needs to do something about this- a person can get an M roadster for the price of a normal boxster--- and that will beat the boxster S completely. THAT IS A PROBLEM in this sort of arena that these cars are categorized under.

    Porsche needs to up the anty by actually putting in more power. The Cayman S or RS should have the same engine that the 911 C2 has. There is no reason why it shouldn't have the same power- if it costs about 5k less out of the door from a dealer. The Porsche 911 C2 should have a min. of 365hp... the C2s should be pushing near 400. These things NEED to happen for porsche to stay competitive with rivals. Just take a look at the people that have Z06's. In their mind.. they paid the same price for a porsche C2 but have a car that might be able to beat the Twin turbo.

    Jun 8, 2006 6:47:23 PM

    wushuhsu
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    How long are we going to put up with the "it's an underpowered overpriced piece of" Porsche, but it's a Porsche, so it's okay? At some point, if Porsche doesn't start making cars that beat the competition on quantitative metrics, then its brand value will suffer and even eventually even this subjective advantage will go away too.

    Jun 8, 2006 7:18:05 PM

    VGA18
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    It is not a hp problem.
    Just look your comparisons you are matching a z4M that is o the top of BMW lists under m6-m5-m3. For the performance issues. So you are talking about BMW's 3rd fastest car. But Cayman S is under the Carrera. Think about how many Carrera cars. Gt3,TT,Gt2,Cs,C4s,C4,C2.Also caymans performance is under the 996 Carrera's. So it is below the middle of Porsche list.
    For the Z06 issue it is fast car yes but do feel so safe at higher speeds and on corners while driving a vette??
    FOr me i will not.
    My ex car was 996 C4S i can go up 280kmh(on digital speedo) very easily and i saw 301kmh(on digital speedo) and there is 200 rpm to go also. I was not afraid and feel very stable.
    I agree for a 343hp car M3 is good. But their challenge to a porsche is not the performance. People choose bmw M's or Merc AMG because they are comfortable and 4 passengered, expect roadstars.
    Porsche ignore roadstars for Boxster S they dont mind Z4M beats it. IMO they think if you want to have performance and convertible issue go and get Carrera Cab or Carrera S cab. It defenitely beat Z4 mCoupe/roadstar
    So if porsche think that challenge is important they can build a Boxster Turbo or Cayman Turo about +360hp's it will defintley beat slk55 and z4m very easilly. But porsche think Carrera sales. Thats the point.

    Porsche produced Cayman 2.7l. Because if they produce a car in the price area of z4 coupe and audi tt, people will get porsche brand. So thats the point also

    Jun 8, 2006 9:03:42 PM

    0two9
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    I think it is an overall hp problem and price point problem. The price is fine- but is it worth it for what you get? Will someone be willing to pay 95k for a single C2 997 with a crapload of options over that of M5 or Z06? I can't see spending 95k on a 911 C2 vs. the price of a Z06. The Z06 may have a crap interior- but spending 5k and taking it to a shop will fix that problem.

    So far as the Z06 and corners---- I assume you haven't read the reviews of it. The Z06 is a very very stable car at speed and can take corners better than a ferrari. It technically is a super car. It may not have super car looks--- but it performs better than a Sl55, Better than a f430, better than a gallardo.. better than a porsche C2S and when the turbo gets reviewed it will run with it too. Just look at the Nurburgring track times and all of the reviews-- the Z06 is the GREATEST corvettes ever created and one of the most solid sports cars to come from the US in decades (opposed to the Ford GT).

    Here is the thing though with your arguement- an individual looking at a C2 cab isn't looking at a Boxster or an SLK or anything else like that. The prices of each aren't equal at all--- you have to look at the prices. If you look at the prices, the style of the cars, and everything else- the porsche boxster is in the same category as the Z4 and SLK.

    The Z4 M Coupe isn't a full range sports car-- it's the EXACT same thing that the Cayman is... (a hard topped version of a roadster). You can't logically compare it to the 911 C2 or C2s- b/c they are two completely different cars.

    Truly, it would be like comparing a Pagani Zonda to a C2S cab and saying that the Pagani is a good competition for the C2s b/c they both are convertible. hahaha, they are two different realms.

    The issue here is that porsche isn't doing enough. Saying you have a porsche boxster but you haven't done anything to the engine and the overal design doesn't make it these days. That is the point. I'm not going to spend 68k on a boxster to make it what it should be (navigation, bose sound system, 18 inch wheels, carbon fiber trim, self dimming mirrors, PAINTED WHEEL EMBLEMS!) Those things should be regular options that don't cost an arm and a leg. Who has ever heard of paying for colored emblems on the car?! Hell, SAAB does that crap for free!!! that's not an option-- that's EXPECTED. In the same vein, one can get all of the same crap on at a better price from any competitor.

    I love how you can do so many options on a porsche, but the options alone don't sell me- I'm buying the car b/c of what it stands for and what it can do--- for a certain price, I expect it to be better than its competitors.

    Jun 8, 2006 10:23:46 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: 0two9

    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    You guys you might be missing something.

    Porsche has always intentionally given most of their cars way less power than the chassis can handle.

    Why? It makes some drivers feel more skilled, makes some always wanting more power and some more ready to trade up
    for the next newest one.

    So far that marketing and content scheme has paid off and for generations of customers.

    Ands as far as option prices go, Porsche from the beginning in the fifties, has always stressed the ridiculous over the
    rational.

    Jun 9, 2006 4:57:05 AM

    cookie monster
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    I agree with JIMFLAT6. However, my overall feeling is that Porsche's brand value is a function of many factors one of which is how people perceive it. Porsche has not only transformed itself into an object of desire (just like the Rolex Daytona, a Daytona is a Daytona while it is not a Patek Phillip it will always be DAYTONA) but also made itself famous by associating its products with the word "FAST". I talked to most laymen who don't even own a Porsche and while they aren't as savvy as we are, all they could remember is the icon 911 and the word FAST. Almost everyone would say "It's a Porsche (while we say Porscherrrr), isn't it supposed to be FAST?" So I am sure that Porsche knows this about its brand and allowing its engineer to keep rolling out cars like Cayman would undoubtedly undermine part of its brand value needless to say. It would be like the laymen sitting in a 2007 Camry in front of the lights outrunning a standard Cayman and saying to his wife "that was a Porsche wasn't it? Wow, wasn't it supposed to be FAST?" I mean at least make sure that the stamp Porsche on its coupe lineup give out some respectable hps would be the least it could do.

    Jun 10, 2006 12:33:38 AM

    arenared
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    Quote:
    I mean at least ... give out some respectable hps would be the least it could do.


    I agree. Today, you can have a 4-door sedan beat a Porsche or at least darn close in a straight line. It's embarassing. I thought the Porsche was a sports car. It needs at least enough HP to hold its own against cars that do not even claim to be sports cars.

    The base Boxster/Cayman should already have 280 HP while the S versions should already have circa 325 HP. The base 911 should have the 3.8L 355 HP while the S 381 HP or more. Honestly, the newer cars keep getting heavier and driving a Cayman S did not impress me enough over my 986S to want one. The stiff chasis was really nice, but that was it.

    Jun 10, 2006 4:44:19 AM

    cookie monster
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    I agree with JIM and it reminded me of the antiquated PRESS and RELEASE button on my BRAND NEW 2006 987s. Now we are talking about year 2006 and 10 years ago, my first car was a 325i convertible in 1996/7 and that roof was the same as my 987s with the press and release mechanism. I can tell you the press and release bullcrap is put in ON PURPOSE simply to please the 997 buyers so there is clear points for the salesman to sell 997 "ah see, you don't need to lift yor finger..." I understand it and know that this is in economics called market segmentation. The lexus ES maybe 70% of a Camry but they have to make the Camry more noisy just to sell the Lexus. Fair enough. However, arenared has a good point. You buy Porsche for the engine and the engine itself could fairly distinguish the two breeds: 987 997. However, it is pretty embarassing that the 2007 Camry beats the Cayman S (hopefully, you can tell yourself that you are hallucinating when you see a family of 4 riding in THAT CAMRY on the red light). And you would exactly get that comment with that kid sitting in the back asking his dad "father, I thought that was a PORSCHE, it certainly sounded like one that huffed and puffed but wasn't it supposed to be a FAST SPORTS CAR" 240/245 bhp in 2006 as a marketing scheme may make you more $$$ at a cost of your brand image/value. Yes Porsche is supposed to be a pure bred sports car and the definition of a true sports car and with its market segmentation strategy, it looks to me like it is getting further and further away from what Ferdinand Porsche envisioned it to be. It does need a little more HP to hold its own against family sedans. If this strategy goes on, the next thing you know is that the 7-seater soccer mom wagon will be outrunning a new Porsche that has 200 hp.

    Jun 10, 2006 4:55:56 AM

    JimFlat6
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    Porsche is a LOVE brand.

    There is no rational reason to buy one. They know it
    and offer content according to what they think they can
    charge. Then for good measure and market position, they double whatever price they first guessed they could get away with.

    Hence .... $650.00 USA leather sun visors etc.,



    Jun 10, 2006 7:42:34 PM

    wushuhsu
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    There's a sucker born every minute.

    Jun 12, 2006 7:58:25 AM

    raysman
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    Reply to: charliepug

    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    there are only 200 z4m allocated for the uk, so as far as exclusivity is concerned it will be far less common on the road than porsches ,some people will be tempted by that in itself

    Jun 14, 2006 3:05:49 PM

    cookie monster
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    z4m to the laymen looks just like another z4 2.5 or 3.0 to be honest with its disproportionate hood. It's more like a hatchback to me than anything else to be honest. However, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

    Jun 15, 2006 10:56:48 AM

    raysman
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    well think yourself fortunate that there are only 200 for the uk and only 2000 worldwide, so highly unlikely you will encounter one because they will be hunting cayman s just for fun ,dont know if i could continue to live with that thought

    Jun 15, 2006 12:56:55 PM

    adrift
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    Quote:
    raysman said:
    well think yourself fortunate that there are only 200 for the uk and only 2000 worldwide, so highly unlikely you will encounter one because they will be hunting cayman s just for fun ,dont know if i could continue to live with that thought



    Then better buy a crotch rocket, because there will always be a faster car out there.

    Jun 15, 2006 1:27:46 PM

    raysman
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    Re: But does BMW really compete with Porsche?

    yeah i know your right adrift, but i just wish porsche had given us just a bit more hp dont you ?
     
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