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    Jun 8, 2006 2:27:06 AM

    SciFrog Offline
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Just one thing-SC is NOT improving acceleration from 0-100km/h or 0-200km/h, just in-gear acceleration(80-120km/h or else...). Reason? According to my friend from P. you are using all the power(and revs) during sprints(0-200km/h), so overboost is not the issue there... Makes sense to me. But, if you are driving 140km/h in fourth gear for example and floor it car with SC will accelerate faster then one without it!



    Sadly for the tip, it makes sense... So that 12.3 for manual is just the usual Porsche being very conservative with acceleration times (with manual cars)...

    Jun 8, 2006 4:45:21 AM

    trip
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    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    GT said:
    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Just one thing-SC is NOT improving acceleration from 0-100km/h or 0-200km/h, just in-gear acceleration(80-120km/h or else...). Reason? According to my friend from P. you are using all the power(and revs) during sprints(0-200km/h), so overboost is not the issue there... Makes sense to me. But, if you are driving 140km/h in fourth gear for example and floor it car with SC will accelerate faster then one without it!


    Exactly! Everybody with a tuned 996 with overboost would know that.. Overboost is until about 4.5k rpm and thus on accelerations from standstill it does not come into play since after every gearchange engine goes above the overboost threshold..
    Was waiting for somebody to point that out at last!

    I am afraid no 11.5s for tip with or without SC RC..


    Actually overboost increases Hp and Torque until 5000 rpm. If some one is trying to extract maximum possible performance, How high do you think they rev the engine before dumping the clutch? Also when shifting from 1st to 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc... at full throttle and at redline, what rpm does the engine fall to once the next gear is engaged. I realize that this info may not be known yet but it is important to consider when determning if overboost helps acceleration.

    Jun 8, 2006 7:47:24 AM

    andrea
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    Reply to: trip

    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    how is possible that the 997 turbo weight is 1583kg?????
    in the press data is 1585kg!!!!!!!

    Jun 8, 2006 7:48:30 AM

    andrea
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    andrea said:
    997 GT3 AMS

    Slalom 18m:-----71,8 kph
    ISO-Wedelgasse-(?! in engl.)-151,1 kph
    "Moose"-Test-----------------85 kph in/65kph out

    997 Turbo AMS

    Slalom 18m:-----68,3 kph
    ISO-Wedelgasse-(?! in engl.)-140,9 kph
    "Moose"-Test-----------------73 kph in/56kph out


    Incredible set-up of the 997 GT3....



    Yes...especially since the GT3 uses semi-slicks.



    ah, I thought also turbo was tested with these tyres.
    however I don't think turbo will be close to these data also with the cup tyres.too much weight to turn fast in the corners

    Jun 8, 2006 8:10:14 AM

    ALDOM
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    Reply to: andrea

    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    andrea said:
    997 GT3 AMS

    Slalom 18m:-----71,8 kph
    ISO-Wedelgasse-(?! in engl.)-151,1 kph
    "Moose"-Test-----------------85 kph in/65kph out

    997 Turbo AMS

    Slalom 18m:-----68,3 kph
    ISO-Wedelgasse-(?! in engl.)-140,9 kph
    "Moose"-Test-----------------73 kph in/56kph out


    Incredible set-up of the 997 GT3....



    Does anyone has this values for a standard 997 S?
    If I remember the ISO-Wedelgasse was faster performed faster by the 997 S.

    AM

    Jun 8, 2006 8:23:06 AM

    zzbobaA
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    Reply to: trip

    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    Any of our German pals w/first-hand expce re: stability of 430 and 996TTS at 170+MPH cruise???



    i've driven 996 C2, 996 GT3 RS and F430 above (speedo indicated) 300 km/h (186 MPH).

    F430 feels slightly light on the front axle > 280 km/h, but not critical. with lower tyre pressure this effect nearly vanishes. steering stability is great.

    GT3 RS "feeled" downforce was phenomenal. better than anything i've driven.
    but high speed driving wasn't a joy, because there's no real flat surfaced autobahn around... the car was hobbling all the time like a hare.

    Best high-speed tourer was my 996 C2. Apart from it's heavy liability to crosswinds. And it took quite long to reach 300

    Jun 8, 2006 8:31:22 AM

    KresoF1
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    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Adnan,
    Here you go...

    997 Carrera S(PASM)
    Slalom 18m: 66,9km/h
    ISO: 142,4km/h
    VDA: 75km/h/55km/h(in/out)

    997 Carrera(PASM, 19")
    Slalmo 18m:66,8km/h
    ISO: 141,9km/h
    VDA: 75km/h/53km/h(in/out)

    Corvette Z06
    Slalom 18m: 66,5km/h
    ISO: 141,4km/h
    VDA: 76km/h/61km/h(in/out)

    Ferrari F430F1
    Slalom 18m: 66,0km/h
    ISO: 144,0km/h
    VDA: 78km/h/60km/h(in/out)

    Jun 8, 2006 8:34:49 AM

    RCA
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    Reply to: andrea

    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    andrea said:
    how is possible that the 997 turbo weight is 1583kg?????
    in the press data is 1585kg!!!!!!!



    Simple: AMS doesn't measure the top speed but...the weight. Btw: The 997 Turbo with Cup tires comes pretty close to the GT3.

    Jun 8, 2006 8:45:17 AM

    RCA
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    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    trip said:
    Yeah MKW, I know that, I am just wondering which car actually has greater downforce including the vehicles own weight.



    trip...a nice saying comes to my mind: "what seperates the men from the boys..." which could be translated here as "what seperates owners/longtime drivers from non-owners..."

    We did over "true" 325 kph in the 996 Turbo and the car felt rock solid. The 997 Turbo has "better" aerodynamics, high speed stability is no issue. I don't want to sound arrogant again but sometimes reading is worth a lot, commenting every single post with theories/hearsay/etc. puts us to a Playstation level and I definetely don't want us to get there. No offense meant...

    Jun 8, 2006 8:49:59 AM

    RCA
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    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    J.Seven said:
    310km Top speed seems to low, 996TT with 60Hp less have the same Top speed. Regarding the accelaration numbers , it shines

    J.Seven



    996 TT factory claim was 305 as far as I remember.

    Jun 8, 2006 8:57:47 AM

    RCA
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    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    GT said:
    Exactly! Everybody with a tuned 996 with overboost would know that.. Overboost is until about 4.5k rpm and thus on accelerations from standstill it does not come into play since after every gearchange engine goes above the overboost threshold..
    Was waiting for somebody to point that out at last!

    I am afraid no 11.5s for tip with or without SC RC..



    The reason why you SHOULD BE afraid is simple: the 996 Turbo never had the overboost feature, not even tuned versions. And unless you have 600+ HP on your car, you won't hit the 12 seconds barrier.
    Tuned 996 Turbos in the 520-540 HP range usually achieve times around 12.5 seconds, valid only for manual and a good shifter of course.

    Jun 8, 2006 9:11:01 AM

    SoCal Alan
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    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    J.Seven said:
    310km Top speed seems to low, 996TT with 60Hp less have the same Top speed. Regarding the accelaration numbers , it shines

    J.Seven



    996 TT factory claim was 305 as far as I remember.



    Yes, you have a pretty good memory. 305 for 996TT, 307 for 996TTS.

    Jun 8, 2006 9:11:36 AM

    Crash
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    GT said:
    Exactly! Everybody with a tuned 996 with overboost would know that.. Overboost is until about 4.5k rpm and thus on accelerations from standstill it does not come into play since after every gearchange engine goes above the overboost threshold..
    Was waiting for somebody to point that out at last!

    I am afraid no 11.5s for tip with or without SC RC..



    The reason why you SHOULD BE afraid is simple: the 996 Turbo never had the overboost feature, not even tuned versions. And unless you have 600+ HP on your car, you won't hit the 12 seconds barrier.
    Tuned 996 Turbos in the 520-540 HP range usually achieve times around 12.5 seconds, valid only for manual and a good shifter of course.



    There's the exception of Ruf and RS Tuning. Their cars (Ruf 550 and RS 542) reach high 10's, low 11's to 200 km/h. But I suspect you already knew that . Of course, they also cost 20.000 Euros.

    Jun 8, 2006 9:23:27 AM

    andrea
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    andrea said:
    how is possible that the 997 turbo weight is 1583kg?????
    in the press data is 1585kg!!!!!!!



    Simple: AMS doesn't measure the top speed but...the weight. Btw: The 997 Turbo with Cup tires comes pretty close to the GT3.



    there was an error surely in AMS
    I think that will be however a gap of more 5km/h between gt3 and turbo in the handling tests with the same tyres.the Physic is not an opinion

    Jun 8, 2006 10:46:24 AM

    Rami
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    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    GT said:
    Exactly! Everybody with a tuned 996 with overboost would know that.. Overboost is until about 4.5k rpm and thus on accelerations from standstill it does not come into play since after every gearchange engine goes above the overboost threshold..
    Was waiting for somebody to point that out at last!

    I am afraid no 11.5s for tip with or without SC RC..



    The reason why you SHOULD BE afraid is simple: the 996 Turbo never had the overboost feature, not even tuned versions. And unless you have 600+ HP on your car, you won't hit the 12 seconds barrier.
    Tuned 996 Turbos in the 520-540 HP range usually achieve times around 12.5 seconds, valid only for manual and a good shifter of course.



    Very true ... mine has 510HP and I did the quarter mile in 12.4

    Jun 8, 2006 11:05:28 AM

    pierre
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    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    RC said:
    And unless you have 600+ HP on your car, you won't hit the 12 seconds barrier.
    Tuned 996 Turbos in the 520-540 HP range usually achieve times around 12.5 seconds, valid only for manual and a good shifter of course.



    Sport Auto tested a few tuned 996TT. Here the 0-200 km/h times:
    - Techart 530 HP / 740 Nm : 12.51s
    - Sportec 540 HP / 705 Nm : 11.38s
    - Gemballa 530 HP / 750 Nm : 12.38s
    - RS Tuning 508 HP / 740 Nm : 12.47s
    - TTP 520 HP / 750 Nm : 11.51s

    BTW, that was in January 2001!

    Jun 8, 2006 11:20:16 AM

    RCA
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    Reply to: pierre

    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    pierre said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    And unless you have 600+ HP on your car, you won't hit the 12 seconds barrier.
    Tuned 996 Turbos in the 520-540 HP range usually achieve times around 12.5 seconds, valid only for manual and a good shifter of course.



    Sport Auto tested a few tuned 996TT. Here the 0-200 km/h times:
    - Techart 530 HP / 740 Nm : 12.51s
    - Sportec 540 HP / 705 Nm : 11.38s
    - Gemballa 530 HP / 750 Nm : 12.38s
    - RS Tuning 508 HP / 740 Nm : 12.47s
    - TTP 520 HP / 750 Nm : 11.51s

    BTW, that was in January 2001!



    And the results don't bother you? If you think that the Sportec and the TTP cars had 520/540 HP only...
    We compared several tuned cars to a 996 GT2 MkII and NONE of these cars was able to outrun the GT2 MkII on the straight line, on the contrary. If remember right, the GT2 MkII did 0-200 kph in 11.7 sec. or so.

    We also compared a 996 Turbo with a 508 HP package to a GT2 MkII. Only advantage was in the speed range ABOVE 300 kph surprisingly. Below that, the GT2 showed the same performance (2 persons on board, 996 Turbo only one person).

    I learned not to trust Tuner claims too much, they're not always accurate I'm afraid.

    Jun 8, 2006 11:44:43 AM

    ALDOM
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Adnan,
    Here you go...

    997 Carrera S(PASM)
    Slalom 18m: 66,9km/h
    ISO: 142,4km/h
    VDA: 75km/h/55km/h(in/out)

    997 Carrera(PASM, 19")
    Slalmo 18m:66,8km/h
    ISO: 141,9km/h
    VDA: 75km/h/53km/h(in/out)

    Corvette Z06
    Slalom 18m: 66,5km/h
    ISO: 141,4km/h
    VDA: 76km/h/61km/h(in/out)

    Ferrari F430F1
    Slalom 18m: 66,0km/h
    ISO: 144,0km/h
    VDA: 78km/h/60km/h(in/out)



    And the 997 has this values:
    997 Turbo AMS

    Slalom 18m:-----68,3 kph
    ISO-Wedelgasse-(?! in engl.)-140,9 kph
    "Moose"-Test-----------------73 kph in/56kph out

    the turbo is faster in slalom (reason awd)
    slower in ISO (weight?)
    an nearly the same in VDA??

    ????
    Does this mean, that the turbo gains its performance only on straight line??

    AM

    Jun 8, 2006 11:56:58 AM

    KresoF1
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    Reply to: ALDOM

    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    No! The reason for excellent performance is new PTM. Of course new engine with VTGs is also important but, key for excellent performance is IMO PTM...

    Jun 8, 2006 12:43:58 PM

    ALDOM
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    997 4S is faster on slalom 18m then 997 s, this must be the awd system. The turbo uses a more intelligent ptm, so it must be the combination awd and ptm. But the difference to a 997 4s should be very small. So there is only the straight line perfomance left where the 997 tt will smoke a 997 S or 4S, am I right?

    AM

    Jun 8, 2006 12:54:40 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: ALDOM

    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    mumbasic said:
    997 4S is faster on slalom 18m then 997 s, this must be the awd system. The turbo uses a more intelligent ptm, so it must be the combination awd and ptm. But the difference to a 997 4s should be very small. So there is only the straight line perfomance left where the 997 tt will smoke a 997 S or 4S, am I right?

    AM



    Good question, very good question. The problem with all those "reviews" in AMS and other magazines is: it isn't always the same driver who does it and unfortunately it isn't even always the same "track" they test the cars.
    The values give only a hint how good of a performer a car is but comparing a 138 kph time to a 141 kph time (ISO test) or a 68 kph to a 71 kph time (slalom) is impossible.

    Like always: the "truth" gets out when you drive the car under "real life" conditions. I just hope I didn't put my money on the wrong horse.

    Jun 8, 2006 12:55:08 PM

    KresoF1
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    Reply to: ALDOM

    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Well... How about almost 20s faster Ring time!? Rememeber 997 Carrera S(-20mm/LSD,PCCB) Ring time by Sport Auto 8.05min. 997 Turbo time will be around 7.48min with normal Michelins and 7s-8s faster with Michelin Cup's or Pirelli Corsa's(YES! Pirelli will offer N-rated Corsa's for GT3/GT3RS and Turbo). Of course, we are talking about manual 997 Turbo with optional LSD.

    Jun 8, 2006 1:01:52 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Well... How about almost 20s faster Ring time!? Rememeber 997 Carrera S(-20mm/LSD,PCCB) Ring time by Sport Auto 8.05min. 997 Turbo time will be around 7.48min with normal Michelins and 7s-8s faster with Michelin Cup's or Pirelli Corsa's(YES! Pirelli will offer N-rated Corsa's for GT3/GT3RS and Turbo). Of course, we are talking about manual 997 Turbo with optional LSD.



    Adnan just wants to "justify" his early 997 C4S Powerkit decision.

    Jun 8, 2006 1:09:34 PM

    KresoF1
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    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Actually, Adnan thinks very hard about new 997 Turbo! He told me so today in our phone conversation...
    So Christian, Adnan will join the club. Sooner or later...

    Jun 8, 2006 1:14:13 PM

    zzbobaA
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    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    Adnan just wants to "justify" his early 997 C4S Powerkit decision



    Justifying a personal car choice? Hm, strange... this is very unsual among RENNTEAM'ers

    Jun 8, 2006 3:36:56 PM

    Rossi
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    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Quote:
    Adnan just wants to "justify" his early 997 C4S Powerkit decision



    Justifying a personal car choice? Hm, strange... this is very unsual among RENNTEAM'ers





    Yes, I think it's even almost impossible !

    Jun 8, 2006 5:07:20 PM

    WBH
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    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Quote:
    Any of our German pals w/first-hand expce re: stability of 430 and 996TTS at 170+MPH cruise???



    i've driven 996 C2, 996 GT3 RS and F430 above (speedo indicated) 300 km/h (186 MPH).

    F430 feels slightly light on the front axle > 280 km/h, but not critical. with lower tyre pressure this effect nearly vanishes. steering stability is great.

    GT3 RS "feeled" downforce was phenomenal. better than anything i've driven.
    but high speed driving wasn't a joy, because there's no real flat surfaced autobahn around... the car was hobbling all the time like a hare.

    Best high-speed tourer was my 996 C2. Apart from it's heavy liability to crosswinds. And it took quite long to reach 300



    Thx for the detailed impressions ...always value comments of a jaded rennteamer over those of 99% of journalists....

    Have also noticed 996TTS' susceptibility to cross-winds, even at relatively pedestrian 160KPHish cruise...hopefully, 997TT aerodyn refinements cure this....

    Jun 8, 2006 5:07:46 PM

    TB993tt
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    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    pierre said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    And unless you have 600+ HP on your car, you won't hit the 12 seconds barrier.
    Tuned 996 Turbos in the 520-540 HP range usually achieve times around 12.5 seconds, valid only for manual and a good shifter of course.



    Sport Auto tested a few tuned 996TT. Here the 0-200 km/h times:
    - Techart 530 HP / 740 Nm : 12.51s
    - Sportec 540 HP / 705 Nm : 11.38s
    - Gemballa 530 HP / 750 Nm : 12.38s
    - RS Tuning 508 HP / 740 Nm : 12.47s
    - TTP 520 HP / 750 Nm : 11.51s

    BTW, that was in January 2001!



    And the results don't bother you? If you think that the Sportec and the TTP cars had 520/540 HP only...
    We compared several tuned cars to a 996 GT2 MkII and NONE of these cars was able to outrun the GT2 MkII on the straight line, on the contrary. If remember right, the GT2 MkII did 0-200 kph in 11.7 sec. or so.

    We also compared a 996 Turbo with a 508 HP package to a GT2 MkII. Only advantage was in the speed range ABOVE 300 kph surprisingly. Below that, the GT2 showed the same performance (2 persons on board, 996 Turbo only one person).

    I learned not to trust Tuner claims too much, they're not always accurate I'm afraid.


    The important fact missing here is the GT2 is 2 wheel drive versus the 4WD of the tuned 996tt - my observations (involving going 4WD to 2WD with the same tuned 540hp engine (993tt)) is that the lack of drag from having to wind up all the 4WD shaft and mechanism is worth around 40 FWHP. This is why the 483 GT2 MKII is so quick, it will be similar in performance to a same weight 996tt with around 525 real hp, factor in the ~100kg weight saving and the 996tt will need the 542hp RS package hp (quoted 0-200kph in 11.4s on the 4WD 996tt) to match the GT2 MKII.

    Jun 8, 2006 5:24:11 PM

    W8MM
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    Reply to: TB993tt

    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    - my observations (involving going 4WD to 2WD with the same tuned 540hp engine (993tt)) is that the lack of drag from having to wind up all the 4WD shaft and mechanism is worth around 40 FWHP.



    Wow!

    I would never have guessed that there was so much rotary inertia involved in a drive shaft, two half-shafts, and an extra differential, or two.

    Jun 8, 2006 5:55:10 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: TB993tt

    Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    pierre said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    And unless you have 600+ HP on your car, you won't hit the 12 seconds barrier.
    Tuned 996 Turbos in the 520-540 HP range usually achieve times around 12.5 seconds, valid only for manual and a good shifter of course.



    Sport Auto tested a few tuned 996TT. Here the 0-200 km/h times:
    - Techart 530 HP / 740 Nm : 12.51s
    - Sportec 540 HP / 705 Nm : 11.38s
    - Gemballa 530 HP / 750 Nm : 12.38s
    - RS Tuning 508 HP / 740 Nm : 12.47s
    - TTP 520 HP / 750 Nm : 11.51s

    BTW, that was in January 2001!



    And the results don't bother you? If you think that the Sportec and the TTP cars had 520/540 HP only...
    We compared several tuned cars to a 996 GT2 MkII and NONE of these cars was able to outrun the GT2 MkII on the straight line, on the contrary. If remember right, the GT2 MkII did 0-200 kph in 11.7 sec. or so.

    We also compared a 996 Turbo with a 508 HP package to a GT2 MkII. Only advantage was in the speed range ABOVE 300 kph surprisingly. Below that, the GT2 showed the same performance (2 persons on board, 996 Turbo only one person).

    I learned not to trust Tuner claims too much, they're not always accurate I'm afraid.


    The important fact missing here is the GT2 is 2 wheel drive versus the 4WD of the tuned 996tt - my observations (involving going 4WD to 2WD with the same tuned 540hp engine (993tt)) is that the lack of drag from having to wind up all the 4WD shaft and mechanism is worth around 40 FWHP. This is why the 483 GT2 MKII is so quick, it will be similar in performance to a same weight 996tt with around 525 real hp, factor in the ~100kg weight saving and the 996tt will need the 542hp RS package hp (quoted 0-200kph in 11.4s on the 4WD 996tt) to match the GT2 MKII.



    True. Also, don't forget that the Mk2 GT2 actually has more than the quoted 483 horsepower and is lighter. To illustrate, a Mk2 GT2 is as fast from 0 to 300 km/h than a Murcielago with supposedly 100 more horsepower.
     
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