Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO - Page1

Jun 6, 2006 1:47:16 PM

polo: Senior; Loc: France; Posts: 539, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 26, 2006; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
The fun killer reports so far seem rather useless, as not a single one has mentioned the "fast back" feature of the TT tip. Its like they dont even realize that it's there.

So, until there is a "report" that addresses that key performance feature all of the "reports" thus far lack credulity, and those who tout them as being vaunted and reliable apppear to just not know what the heck the new TT Tip is really all about.

Many article from magazine did talk about the new functions brought on the Tip. I suggest you re-read all the ones that have been posted on this board, and I'm sure you will find one that mention these functions. But as I don't want to re-read them to quote them for you; I will talk about the latest I read from Flat6mag.

"...moments earlier on the small twisty road going back to the highway... Jumping from one version to the other one, I could measure how efficient the new tip is. There is no difference in term of performance...we can only pull our hat for this...Moreover, the intelligence of this new tranny is astonishing grâce(with) the new functions (cf technical data) and permit to drive hard without to have to think -- wether it is automatic or manual..."

Here is a translation of the second paragraphe page 28 from flat6 mag...

Come on man, ALL journalists know about this feature! And they have experienced it unlike you! You're in serious denial to claim such poor arguments -- they are so general , uninformed and false. (saying that journalists...)

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Jun 6, 2006 1:50:02 PM

DJB: Co-Pilot; Loc: Virginia & Lucerne; Posts: 198, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 12, 2006; Reply to: W8MM

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

The early experience with the 360 F1 was not all that good. I drove it, both on street and track, and it was clearly much better on track when one was consistently shifting at high rpms and pushing. Very rough around town. A friend burnt his out with repeated backing out of a steep driveway. I have only driven the 430 F1 on the street and have found it to have improved dramatically. So I would agree there can be issues Porsche may face if they introduced without enough prep.

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Jun 6, 2006 1:56:27 PM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: W8MM

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

Quote:
W8MM said:
Quote:
trip said:Now if you could show me some proof supporting your claim that tip is more involving maybe we could have an intelligent discussion.

Well, I've tried to have intelligent discussions with 6-speed demagogues and have given up trying.

I am always intrigued by new automotive technology, especially when invented by some of the world's best performance car engineers.

I am even more interested in ways to overcome the "fun killer" effects of the cramped foot well that makes a modern 6-speed Porsche so frustrating to heel-and-toe if not available with "console delete" or the generous wheel base of the Carrera GT (Neither Teo Fabi nor the entire Andretti family would ever notice).

I think it will be great fun to see whose predictions and/or observations about the new net-centric Tiptronic are closest to the mark when I get a chance to drive a 997TT so equipped.

I'm perfectly happy to wait a while to develop accurate, comprehensive information before I purchase either a Tip or 6-speed.

It seems like all this angst over the Tip vs. 6-speed is caused by desperately wanting to be correct in ones choices before any facts are widely known. What a pity.

I won't go into convulsions if I'm not the absolute first to have the fastest, most fun 997TT in my neighborhood

Always refreshing to hear more open-minded views re: Tip vs manual from guys who prob are decent at shifting gears if need be

As usual, the open-minded will prob drive 997TT SC man vs Tip back-to-back...and draw their own conclusions re: subjective "fun"....

But 95%+ of guys will just claim one is more "fun" than the other without having driven both cars extensively....and often neither car extensively.....and the most strident views are prob inversely correlated w/first-hand driving expce w/either car....

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Jun 6, 2006 2:38:14 PM

pierre: Veteran; Loc: there , Switzerland; Posts: 1192, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 7, 2002; Reply to: W8MM

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

Quote:
W8MM said:
The Veyron seems to have conquered this problem at a high power level, but we're talking here about a Porsche at 10 times lower cost. How many PDKs would be sold for a $40,000 option price?

On one end, we have PDK-like for the Veyron that can handle 1k HP and bags of torque. On the other end, we have DSG for the Audi A3, TT, etc that fits into a small car at a very reasonnable price. And Porsche still can't do it in the middle?

About the tip vs manual reports: I somehow have the impression that if the press (and other reporters) would have been ecstatic about the tip, their credibility wouldn't have been questionned, even by Rennteam's admins. Now, the tip is said to be less fun, and the journalists have no clue.

This is of course just an impression based on nothing.

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Jun 6, 2006 2:47:35 PM

zzboba: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Germany; Posts: 3115, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: pierre

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

Quote:

On one end, we have PDK-like for the Veyron that can handle 1k HP and bags of torque. On the other end, we have DSG for the Audi A3, TT, etc that fits into a small car at a very reasonnable price. And Porsche still can't do it in the middle?

i thought the same.

and porsche invented it. 20 years ago. the car is such a technical tour de force, an auto tranny (with 5 gears!) just doesn't feel right.

IMO PDK could have been ready and reliable, if they'd wanted.
well, i wouldn't be too surprised, if the PDK is waiting in some PAG controller's closet to give turbo and GT3 sales a boost 2 years from now...

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Jun 6, 2006 2:51:42 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12680, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: zzboba

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

Quote:
zzboba said:

Quote:

On one end, we have PDK-like for the Veyron that can handle 1k HP and bags of torque. On the other end, we have DSG for the Audi A3, TT, etc that fits into a small car at a very reasonnable price. And Porsche still can't do it in the middle?

i thought the same.

and porsche invented it. 20 years ago. the car is such a technical tour de force, an auto tranny (with 5 gears!) just doesn't feel right.

IMO PDK could have been ready and reliable, if they'd wanted.
well, i wouldn't be too surprised, if the PDK is waiting in some PAG controller's closet to give turbo and GT3 sales a boost 2 years from now...

Well, before they can introduce the PDK, the PAG first has to get rid of all these auto trannies in stock...

(just kidding...

)

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Jun 6, 2006 2:54:18 PM

zzboba: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Germany; Posts: 3115, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: Rossi

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

Quote:
Well, before they can introduce the PDK, the PAG first has to get rid of all these auto trannies in stock...

ah, the infamous "ferrari becker navi unit overstock problem"

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Jun 6, 2006 3:38:23 PM

SciFrog: Rennteam VIP; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 9870, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 15, 2005; Reply to: zzboba

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

Even Porsche has limited resources. The 997TT has so many advances already, maybe they just couldn't do the PDK in time with the proper design/testing.

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Jun 6, 2006 4:22:34 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: SciFrog

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

Just one hint for you-PDK is ready but, Porsche decided that intro will be after 2 years in production... And PDK will, of course, replace TIP. But, even with PDK there will not be optional LSD! Why? PDK gearbox is in size and weight similar to TIP... Forthcoming GT2 will be manual only, NO PDK or TIP.

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Jun 6, 2006 5:56:17 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: polo

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

Quote:
polo said:
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
The fun killer reports so far seem rather useless, as not a single one has mentioned the "fast back" feature of the TT tip. Its like they dont even realize that it's there.

So, until there is a "report" that addresses that key performance feature all of the "reports" thus far lack credulity, and those who tout them as being vaunted and reliable apppear to just not know what the heck the new TT Tip is really all about.

Many article from magazine did talk about the new functions brought on the Tip. I suggest you re-read all the ones that have been posted on this board, and I'm sure you will find one that mention these functions. But as I don't want to re-read them to quote them for you; I will talk about the latest I read from Flat6mag.

"...moments earlier on the small twisty road going back to the highway... Jumping from one version to the other one, I could measure how efficient the new tip is. There is no difference in term of performance...we can only pull our hat for this...Moreover, the intelligence of this new tranny is astonishing grâce(with) the new functions (cf technical data) and permit to drive hard without to have to think -- wether it is automatic or manual..."

Here is a translation of the second paragraphe page 28 from flat6 mag...

Come on man, ALL journalists know about this feature! And they have experienced it unlike you! You're in serious denial to claim such poor arguments -- they are so general , uninformed and false. (saying that journalists...)

Thanks for quoting Flat6's general praise about the Tip, however that did not address the specific actions and
capabilties of the tip. Again...no specific mention there of them experiencing downshifting aggressively under braking going into corners as Porsche claims..and none of the other 'tests' have yet either - just vague generalities.

If you are satisfied with such vague and simple analysis from journalists, thats ok. I am not. But to use their
omissions as a basis to claim that one gearbox is less involving than the other is just specious fanboy nonsense.

Hopefully Von Saurma or someone else knowledgable will
provide some specifics and detail soon. Apparently there are many degrees of journalistic intelligence.

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Jun 6, 2006 6:16:49 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

And if Von Saurma finds it boring and uninvolving?

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Jun 6, 2006 6:18:40 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: Crash

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

Andrej, you have been very naughty!

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Jun 6, 2006 6:22:58 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: Crash

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

Quote:
Crash said:
And if Von Saurma finds it boring and uninvolving?

Welll if its a pile of marketing crap it needs to be flushed!

Look, Im no fan of automatic gearboxs. But when a company
says our new Automatic does everything as well and even better than a manual, I'm open minded!

These cars are just tools for getting from A to B the fastest. For the money spent I want the fastest.

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Jun 6, 2006 6:30:48 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Andrej, you have been very naughty!

Oh, yes! Von Saurma would never do that, seeing how Nick knows he's on Porsche's payroll

.

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Jun 6, 2006 6:34:14 PM

Trundle_GT3: Veteran; Loc: CA, USA; Posts: 1016, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 30, 2003; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

A very interesting thread!!!
I love the international flavor of Rennteam..love of cars is universal!!

We all love to read and savor the reviews published by Automotive Journalists.
The truth is they they are writers....not drivers.

Knowing many of the drivers from PDE (Porsche Driving Experience) who conduct journalist launch, and press events for PCNA... stories abound of really how bad the journalist drivers really are for the most part.
For the most part hey DO NOT want to ride with them.
At the last Rennsport Reunion a journalist wadded a Turbo cab with Doc Bundy as a passenger into a "K" rail barrier at a speed determined by the "black box" of 80+mph.

Sadly this was a totally avoidable shunt, thankfully no serious injuries, but

Doc won't ride with journalist's anymore.

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Jun 6, 2006 6:35:01 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Quote:
Crash said:
And if Von Saurma finds it boring and uninvolving?

Welll if its a pile of marketing crap it needs to be flushed!

Look, Im no fan of automatic gearboxs. But when a company
says our new Automatic does everything as well and even better than a manual, I'm open minded!

These cars are just tools for getting from A to B the fastest. For the money spent I want the fastest.

Who knows? I have some very nice swamp property that I'd like to sell you

.

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Jun 6, 2006 6:39:43 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59579, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Just one hint for you-PDK is ready but, Porsche decided that intro will be after 2 years in production... And PDK will, of course, replace TIP. But, even with PDK there will not be optional LSD! Why? PDK gearbox is in size and weight similar to TIP... Forthcoming GT2 will be manual only, NO PDK or TIP.

I heard something else...involving not satisfactory testing results and a completely new design incl. some huge advantages over the current F1/SMG systems of the competition, incl. DSG. Surprise, surprise I guess...

If PDK would be ready, Porsche would have been pretty stupid not to launch it. One reason why they improved Tiptronic that much was actually the non-availability of PDK in time. Cost for a completely new Tiptronic (7-gear for example) was way too high, so using the Tiptronic but actually adapting the same concept of the PDK, was the only (cost-effective) solution. But of course I may be wrong...just rumors.

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Jun 6, 2006 6:43:06 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: Trundle_GT3

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

You mean that most of them are writers but, not very good drivers? I agree with you to some point... But, some of them like Horst von Saurma from German Sport Auto mag are really good drivers! I heard same stories like you at PDE and BMW M Driving training at Nordschleife but, not all members of car press are like that.
Funny thing is that John Barker admits in his article about new 997 Turbo in EVO that he is not able to drive like W.Rohrl. That's honestly at least...

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Jun 6, 2006 6:52:06 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: RC

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

Quote:
I heard something else...involving not satisfactory testing results and a completely new design incl. some huge advantages over the current F1/SMG systems of the competition, incl. DSG. Surprise, surprise I guess...
If PDK would be ready, Porsche would have been pretty stupid not to launch it. One reason why they improved Tiptronic that much was actually the non-availability of PDK in time. Cost for a completely new Tiptronic (7-gear for example) was way too high, so using the Tiptronic but actually adapting the same concept of the PDK, was the only (cost-effective) solution. But of course I may be wrong...just rumors.

I also heard some interesting news from my friend who works at P., very similar to what you wrote hear! But, I have been told that PDK is almost ready but, results of Turbo with PDK are not better in this stage of development then Turbo with manual(track times) or TIP(acceleration)... Also IMO Porsche needs to develop some kind of paddles for shifting gears on steering wheel! I hope RC that you also think that those tiny buttons suck...

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Jun 6, 2006 6:57:37 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12680, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
But, some of them like Horst von Saurma from German Sport Auto mag are really good drivers!

Don't let that hear Nick!

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Jun 6, 2006 6:58:12 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

Kreso, they could just get the paddles from the new Audi S8
if they wanted to. Its not as if Porsche and Audi dont share some parts anyway! So I dont think that the paddles are the issue.

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Jun 6, 2006 6:59:37 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: Rossi

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

Stefan, where were you? We need some good comments from you!

I almost send you "Wish you were here" kind of PM!

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Jun 6, 2006 7:01:25 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

So, Jim you like those tiny buttons?!

Well, I do not...

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Jun 6, 2006 7:03:12 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
So, Jim you like those tiny buttons?!
Well, I do not...

They are very out of place. I did quite a lot of driving with a C4S Tip and I never got fully used to them. My thumbs want to be snug on the steering wheel, not jumping around, flipping buttons...

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Jun 6, 2006 7:06:17 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12680, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Stefan, where were you? We need some good comments from you!
I almost send you "Wish you were here" kind of PM!

Kreso, I was busy trying to catch up with a Boxster with my slouch Enzo. But I didn't stand a chance, the Boxster was Tiptronic.

Was that comment good enough?

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Jun 6, 2006 7:08:40 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: Crash

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

No buttons.

Go look at the new S8, it has polished stainless steel
paddles mounted on the steering column.

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Jun 6, 2006 7:09:50 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: Rossi

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

You are in very good form tonight, my friend!

We need more "in-depth" comments like that...

Seriously-this was excellent thread so far! Lots of different opinions, good debate, only possible on rennteam!

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Jun 6, 2006 7:17:49 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
You are in very good form tonight, my friend!
We need more "in-depth" comments like that...

Seriously-this was excellent thread so far! Lots of different opinions, good debate, only possible on rennteam!

Yes, I have to say it's been entertaining to say the least.

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Jun 6, 2006 7:27:39 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

From the new Audi S8 parts bin ... and hopefully soon on the 997TT Tip.

Look at the price of the limited production new S8 and then ask yourself if the 997TT is not the most overpriced German car of all time...

http://www.audiworld.com/features/tests/d3s8.shtml

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Jun 6, 2006 8:14:07 PM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
From the new Audi S8 parts bin ... and hopefully soon on the 997TT Tip.

Look at the price of the limited production new S8 and then ask yourself if the 997TT is not the most overpriced German car of all time... http://www.audiworld.com/features/tests/d3s8.shtml

Actually, more relevant parts bin here would be Merc's '07 55/65 paddle-shifters, as P adds its software to Merc's "old" 5-speed auto box to create the Tip....

To determine cost of any car today, MSRP is only part of equation.... need to compare cost of available $0 down leases and cost of early trade-in (and lease payoff), as what true, latest tech, max performance fanatic wants any car more than 1-2 yrs???

....always new factory powerkits, trannies, new PASM/PSM software, sports exhausts, etc etc coming out every 12-18 mos

......and oil changes are such a waste of time, esp when one can leave that first oil change to that shrewd used P buyer.....

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