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    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:


    Ah Dario,

    You should do what we do here in the USA to practice our manual stick driving skills: RENT a manual tranny car! No use buying a car to learn on if you trash the clutch exiting the parking lot of your dealer.



    hhihihihi

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    RC, you are defending TIP because:
    1. You are DIE HARD Porsche Marketing beliver! All claimes that Porsche Marketing makes are true... Specially those about TIP in 997 Turbo
    or
    2. You like to drive TIP versions more then manual. You already have TWO TIP Porsche's so this may be the case...
    or
    3. You ordered your 997 Turbo with TIP because some "little bird" or "deep throat" told you it is awsome and faster then manual. Now, all people that do not agree with you are stupid, ingorant or whatever...

    So, why in the hell we do not see any positive report about TIP version? So, in your opinion RC all members of car press are morons(excluded only those of them who actually likes TIP)? Why is manual version(specially with optional LSD) faster at least 3s on Nordschleife then TIP version? What kind of person would challenge every other 997 Turbo driver on traffic lights just because she/he drives TIP version?

    I love this web site really a lot but, if you do not like this post just delete it... Little bit of freedom of opinion is nice I guess... You have yours and I have mine! Let's live in harmony until first TIP test in AMS or Sport Auto. But, even if they will not be positive you have to live with your car(and the same goes for me and my manual with LSD!)...



    You don't really want me to say everything I know, do you? Or do you?
    The reason why I defend Tiptronic that much is simple: I know something other people don't know. But since this sounds pretty arrogant, I never said it. Now you forced me too.

    Our site became successful because people trust us and because we unveilled a few things in the past which were pretty surprising, not to say sensational. I do not believe Porsche Marketing and I also criticize them a lot because I'm not sure they're doing a great job, even if they seem to convince a lot of people with their claims but thats not my point.

    Deleting posts? Why should I? Because somebody has a different opinion? Or because I know slightly more than other people? But don't expect me to shut up because this is why a discussion forum is here for.

    The only reason why I sometimes react a little bit touchy is simple to explain: people don't pay attention.
    I would NEVER tell somebody who claims that he drove manual and he thinks it is "better" (whatever this means to him) than Tip that he is dumb or that this is crap. This would be not only arrogant but also very insulting. But if somebody compares a GT3 to the Turbo or if somebody trusts the claims of car journalists who have nothing better to do than do donuts in a 140000 Euro car...I don't know, I just get mad. This romanian car journalist was driving a Dacia/Oltcit a couple of years go and you really honestly want me to trust his opinion? Oh boy.

    Sorry if my direct approach of telling my opinion is a little bit too offensive but this is actually the good thing about Rennteam: we don't give a crap. Since we don't make money with it, since we don't have sponsors, etc., we're free to express our opinions. And trust me if I say that these opinions are usually backed up by facts but you don't really want to tell you something about our sources, our possibilities or similar stuff?!

    So maybe we already drove the 997 Turbo Tip. Maybe not under "controlled" conditions like car journalists. Maybe we talked to a lot of people involved in development and maybe I'm just lying to you and telling you crap.

    Bottom line is: people have a choice. If they don't like my posts, they can ignore them. And there are other car forums too.



    I agree with RC in one thing, so many times the cars are driven by professional JOURNALISTS that may be able to do a drift or two... and so many times the same people are saying that a car for all it's electronics aids and so on is not involving or it is not giving the best and so on... And for this reason they don't give it the maximum points. And if you start to look to the plus and minus almost all of them start to criticize the maker of the car for not giving a lot of electronic aids as standard. I saw this in so many magazines that when a journalist just starts to tell you crap about the electronics interfering almost 70% of all of them are out of the situation maybe have done something so stupid that the electronics interfered just to not let him ashamed.

    As RC says it is very easy to do the hero in a car with 100hp, but very easy to do the stupid in a 300hp car, just for believing that everything should be the same in both...not talk about the 480hp in the turbo.

    So I don't have the money for the turbo but if I would have them I would prefer the tiptronic, maybe just to hide mi mistakes.... sometimes.... and let the others do the fouls...

    So I think the tiptronic it is fast and very advanced, maybe to advanced for many of the driverd that are using it.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Actually I do like the way the Tip-shifter looks, I do appreciate fast clutchless starts, and on a tight technical track with lots of shifts, the Tip might be the better bet (although not on the Ring were traction is paramount and shifts are less frequent).

    If RC and other respected experts say all the 'fun killer' reports are untrue after the car is released and properly tested, I will eat my hat and consider a Tip...

    BTW the 'last-gasp slush-box' comments were meant to be light hearted. I guess RC must appreciate the warm-hearted spirit in which I communicate or he would not have invited me to the upcoming shootout.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO


    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    Current tip is not substandard, it is a great improvement over the old one. What AUM says is that the current tip is just a precursor for the upcoming PDK, once it is here, no more reason for the tip to exist (PDK will have an auto mode and incorporate all the new technology/gizmos RC has been hinting about).



    Yes that is all I was saying.

    Imagination is a powerful force.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    I got your back

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Quote:
    AUM said:


    Imagination is a powerful force.


    Speaking of imagination...that book you bid everyone "Au revoir" over,must have been a quality product ..as you finished it in ..WHAT?? 6 DAYS And you thought I had the imagination

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Quote:
    LoranTw said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:


    Imagination is a powerful force.




    I started the book in 1997 and have published three previous editions, the last in 2002. I have been working on the 2006 edition for more than a year. The rewrite is now complete and awaits final input from the editors before internet publication in mid June.

    Further revision and refinement will precede the print version later this year. The project has consumed much of my time and energy for many years; it is a labour of love.




    Speaking of imagination...that book you bid everyone "Au revoir" over,must have been a quality product ..as you finished it in ..WHAT?? 6 DAYS And you thought I had the imagination


    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Quote:
    LoranTw said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:


    Imagination is a powerful force.




    I started the book in 1997 and have published three previous editions, the last in 2002. I have been working on the 2006 edition for more than a year. The rewrite is now complete and awaits final input from the editors before internet publication in mid June.

    Further revision and refinement will precede the print version later this year. The project has consumed much of my time and energy for many years; it is a labour of love.




    Speaking of imagination...that book you bid everyone "Au revoir" over,must have been a quality product ..as you finished it in ..WHAT?? 6 DAYS And you thought I had the imagination





    Now, c'mon AUM, fess up and tell us really why you are back. You're addicted, you can't stay away. It's got you by the frontal lobe and you can't log off rennteam again.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Quote:
    LoranTw said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:


    Imagination is a powerful force.




    I started the book in 1997 and have published three previous editions, the last in 2002. I have been working on the 2006 edition for more than a year. The rewrite is now complete and awaits final input from the editors before internet publication in mid June.

    Further revision and refinement will precede the print version later this year. The project has consumed much of my time and energy for many years; it is a labour of love.




    Speaking of imagination...that book you bid everyone "Au revoir" over,must have been a quality product ..as you finished it in ..WHAT?? 6 DAYS And you thought I had the imagination




    I hope it went well...and sorry about the cheap shot

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Now, c'mon AUM, fess up and tell us really why you are back. You're addicted, you can't stay away. It's got you by the frontal lobe and you can't log off rennteam again.
    --------------------
    2005 996TSCab
    EVO/GIAC Stage 4 600HP
    Milltek TT/GT2 Exhaust
    Sachs GT1/Level 2 Clutch

    --------------------------------------

    I confess

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Yeah the 'team has got me hooked aswell.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    FTR I want to clarify my comments about 'credibility'.

    Anyone who denies the 'fun killer' reports of every single driver who has tested the Tip has a credibility problem. Evo, for example, is a very respected source of Porsche information. We cannot dismiss all of these reports, including those of two Rennteamers, without any reports to the contrary and expect to retain credibility. Denial starts to sound like wishful thinking.

    The opinions of most forum participants, like myself, are inconsequential. Unlike RC, we are not professional commentators and have no professional reputation at stake. This is why I highlighted credibility in relation to RC and not other Tip aficionados. He has a professional reputation to protect. It is not personal. I like RC and greatly appreciate his contribution to my life through Rennteam.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    The fun killer reports so far seem rather useless, as not a single one has mentioned the "fast back" feature of the TT tip. Its like they dont even realize that it's there.

    So, until there is a "report" that addresses that key performance feature all of the "reports" thus far lack credulity, and those who tout them as being vaunted and reliable apppear to just not know what the heck the new TT Tip is really all about.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    The people who have driven the car have no idea what their talking about but you do? Thats ridiculous. Fast back is not a feature that you can turn on and off so they obviously experienced it. Please don't start this discusion again because you have nothing new to say. You prefer the tip, fine.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    You get the award for over reacting!

    Show me specific mention of that feature and its effect
    in a test thus far.

    And you dont have to partake in any discussion. Thats your call, not mine.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    I doubt I'm the only one on this forum who is sick of reading your posts filled with "show me some proof" Read any and every review available. Now if you could show me some proof supporting your claim that tip is more involving maybe we could have an intelligent discussion. Until then its just based on your wishful thinking.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    More like your wishful thinking clouding your mind.

    Porsche claims that the "fastback" feature of the Tip,when combined with Sport Chrono on Sport, provides for lightening quick downshifts, perfectly matched to engine speed and that it even does that and shifts down automatically when applying the brakes.

    So far no news on that from independent sources.

    So far its just.."Oh, the Tip is slower at changing gears."

    Be a ostrich if you want to be, thats ok, but I want to see some specific mention of that claimed performance in a test.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    The point is not how fast the tip can shift. Is it more fun to run a car through the powerwash or caress the panels with a sponge by hand?

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    I have to admit that Jim has a point here, no offense meant.
    The problems I have with the reports about the 997 Turbo Tip ("fun killer", etc.) are simple to explain: the authors don't tell us how fast they were going, under what conditions they were driving and even worse, most don't tell us anything about if Sport Chrono was active or not.

    A few days ago, it was raining and the streets were completely wet. I went with my daughter to a movie (The Wild) and on our way back home, there was that nice and large parking lot next to our home... I started to make some donuts for the enjoyment of my little daughter and it worked out pretty well. After doing a couple of 360* donuts without lifting my foot from the throttle, I saw a couple of people stopping next by and I stopped because I was afraid that they may call the police (it happened before).

    The car? A Boxster S with TIPTRONIC. Oh yeah...if making donuts means fun, I can do that too. So those gentleman car journalists should tell us: how is it to drive a 997 Turbo Tiptronic with Sport Chrono turned on and PSM turned off? Not involving enough? They need their heads examined.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Quote:
    trip said:Now if you could show me some proof supporting your claim that tip is more involving maybe we could have an intelligent discussion.



    Well, I've tried to have intelligent discussions with 6-speed demagogues and have given up trying.

    I am always intrigued by new automotive technology, especially when invented by some of the world's best performance car engineers.

    I am even more interested in ways to overcome the "fun killer" effects of the cramped foot well that makes a modern 6-speed Porsche so frustrating to heel-and-toe if not available with "console delete" or the generous wheel base of the Carrera GT (Neither Teo Fabi nor the entire Andretti family would ever notice).

    I think it will be great fun to see whose predictions and/or observations about the new net-centric Tiptronic are closest to the mark when I get a chance to drive a 997TT so equipped.

    I'm perfectly happy to wait a while to develop accurate, comprehensive information before I purchase either a Tip or 6-speed.

    It seems like all this angst over the Tip vs. 6-speed is caused by desperately wanting to be correct in ones choices before any facts are widely known. What a pity.

    I won't go into convulsions if I'm not the absolute first to have the fastest, most fun 997TT in my neighborhood

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Quote:
    It seems like all this angst over the Tip vs. 6-speed is caused by desperately wanting to be correct in ones choices before any facts are widely known. What a pity.




    PAG could have saved us from this dilemma with the timely introduction of the PDK. then the manual would have been the proper choice for die-hard oldschool crowd, and the PDK for the other 90%.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Agreed.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    trip said:Now if you could show me some proof supporting your claim that tip is more involving maybe we could have an intelligent discussion.



    Well, I've tried to have intelligent discussions with 6-speed demagogues and have given up trying.

    I am always intrigued by new automotive technology, especially when invented by some of the world's best performance car engineers.

    I am even more interested in ways to overcome the "fun killer" effects of the cramped foot well that makes a modern 6-speed Porsche so frustrating to heel-and-toe if not available with "console delete" or the generous wheel base of the Carrera GT (Neither Teo Fabi nor the entire Andretti family would ever notice).

    I think it will be great fun to see whose predictions and/or observations about the new net-centric Tiptronic are closest to the mark when I get a chance to drive a 997TT so equipped.

    I'm perfectly happy to wait a while to develop accurate, comprehensive information before I purchase either a Tip or 6-speed.

    It seems like all this angst over the Tip vs. 6-speed is caused by desperately wanting to be correct in ones choices before any facts are widely known. What a pity.

    I won't go into convulsions if I'm not the absolute first to have the fastest, most fun 997TT in my neighborhood



    The best combination would be a Turbo with PDK and a manual GT3, at least for us normal-sized guys. You, on the other hand, could probably do with both cars equipped with PDK .
    The biggest gripe I have with the Tip is the lack of an extra gear. Not really important in the US, where most will rarely if at all drive at over 100 mph, but more important in Europe. I hope all the Tip guys are satisfied with their purchases.

    tip v. manual angst

    there should be no angst - the reports from those who have actually driven the car are as follows:
    1) 6 speed turbo is great
    2) tip turbo is great.

    what angst?

    Re: tip v. manual angst

    I think the angst is: who is getting their money's worth? Tip or manual buyers?

    whos' getting their money's worth? tip or manual

    ummm - both?

    Re: tip v. manual angst

    Quote:
    Stealth said:
    I think the angst is: who is getting their money's worth? Tip or manual buyers?



    i'd be concerned about the resale value of tiptronic cars when PDK becomes available.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Quote:
    zzboba said:PAG could have saved us from this dilemma with the timely introduction of the PDK.



    I'm not sure I can agree.

    Twin-clutch, double-gear-shaft style transmission setups have some serious heat dissipation challenges since (as I understand it) simultaneous slip of both clutches necessarily substitutes for the action of the torque converter in the Tip to arrive at acceptably smooth gear changes.

    Twin clutches need to be packaged in the space ordinarily devoted to only one. They might each have to be smaller in order that both have an acceptably small combined packaging volume. Smaller, while simultaneously more powerful, seems hard to do.

    The Veyron seems to have conquered this problem at a high power level, but we're talking here about a Porsche at 10 times lower cost. How many PDKs would be sold for a $40,000 option price?

    What if one wants to "chip" ones new 997TT? How robust do the new double-shaft twin-clutches have to be? How much safety margin is built in for the "tuners" to use up?

    I can just hear it now; "Why didn't they make the PDK able to stand adequate power? Now, I'll have to buy a (insert other transmission here) so I can get what I want in the way of even higher power level!"

    The posts I especially love are the accusations that Porsche is not really an engineering company at heart, but rather a slimy, manipulative marketer of less than optimum, over-hyped hardware pandered to a bunch of image-conscious know-nothings that crowd out the needs of the truly worthy, who deserve much better.

    Tell me, which company is serving the needs of car enthusiasts so much better than Porsche?

    Re: tip v. manual angst

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Quote:
    Stealth said:
    I think the angst is: who is getting their money's worth? Tip or manual buyers?



    i'd be concerned about the resale value of tiptronic cars when PDK becomes available.



    In US, resale value for 997TT will be dismal after first-yr of produc anyway....but, who cares? 997TT is cheap, and one can set-up a $0 down 2-3 yr lease if counting pennies and hand keys to P dealer at end of lease...and roll into whatever is then-latest 997TT for another $0 down lease....

    Besides, if PDK is as good as hoped for, suspect both archaic manuals and Tips will have dismal resale value (currently, manual 996TTS's also have weak resale value ).....

     
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