Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 - Turbo Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

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    Re: Here's my interpretation

    Why should potential buyers listen to your speculations on how involving the tip will be when none of you (except maybe RC, that sneaky devil) have driven either version and those that have, including credible sources such as EVO, CAR, Autobild, etc. have all stated that the Tip is less fun and less involving. It sounds like most of your assumptions are based on wishful thinking rather than the respected opinions of journalists who have actually driven both cars. Wait till you drive both versions before you make your decisions. I hope all of you tip buyers won't be disapointed but have a feeling you might.

    RC - just tell me one thing

    Am I gonna luv this car, manual and all?

    Re: RC - just tell me one thing

    If you get the manual version, you will have missed out on ownimg the first totally networked car.. but will get the best manual transmission Porsche has offered recently.

    Re: RC - just tell me one thing

    Totally networked means nothing if it doesn't make the car better to drive.

    Re: RC - just tell me one thing

    Quote:
    trip said:
    Totally networked means nothing if it doesn't make the car better to drive.



    You still must steer and judge speed, otherwise it would be a autodrone.

    Its quicker and has to be tons better in the mountains. what more u want? You really want the slower Turbo??


    Re: RC - just tell me one thing

    Where do you get your info? "it has to be tons better in the mountains" That makes no sense. The stick with lsd would be a much better mountain or hill climb car because of the tighter gear ratios and the fact that you can keep the car in its power band better while holding whichever gear you choose. Not to mention the fact that the auto is heavier and has no lsd which will really shine in tight corners. If you want to drive an automatic transmision car and not have to worry about shifting than the tip is the car for you. Just don't expect it to be more engaging or faster than the manual in anything but a straight line. It is not the more sporting option and those who claim otherwise have nothing to back it up except for RC's endless "hints". By the way, RC as much as I respect your knowledge of cars your endless defense of the tip in the face of mounting criticism from EVERY SINGLE REVIEW is harming your credibility. If you could exlain your non-stop hints instead of acting like you know something we don't maybe that would help. What are you hinting at or holding back that hasn't been discovered by journalists across the globe? The Turbo is no longer a secret and Porsche has disclosed all the info on it so who are you protecting by keeping your "secrets". Either stop with your "hints" and spill the beans, or stop this nonsense. It is extremely arogant to keep saying you know something we don't, especially if you DON'T. What, if anything, are you hiding? I am really getting tired of reading your rants full of claims but completely devoid of facts!

    Re: RC - just tell me one thing

    Trip, its very simple. Is about MMI - man machine interface.

    The tip changes gears for you much faster than your feet and hands can mechanically work the controls, and for blasting up or down mountain switchbacks that is a obvious advantage that even the the LSD on the manual cannot help overcome.

    Unlike all other Porsche Tips, this one stays ready as it senses the cars accelleration, deacceleration, speed and the g loadings on the body. It even downshifts as you brake
    getting into the right gear at the right rpm to blast you off again. Thats the central point to the networked gearbox.
    The car stays in the sweet spot of the powerband with out the driver having to manually work the tranny.

    What dont you understand now?

    If you had actually carefully read RC's hints and Porsches information about it, you might understand it all better.

    Every prognostication he has ever made in the history of Rennteam has been 100% spot on.



    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Quote:
    BMCG said:
    Well put RC.

    Now Nick, I might see an enthusiasts choice including PDK, but a TIP? Having run a Tip and Manual back to back at a fairly technical track, found it distinctly less engaging to be working with the Tip...actually found it rather frustrating. Granted I've much less experience with a TIP, but following that encounter, neither was I persuaded to take on the learning curve.

    BTW - even setting aside the Porsche bias that resonates through EVO...believe fair to assert that EVO is a cut above your average car mag. Their opinions resonate with insight and a passion for the art of driving.



    I agree with your comments. I am not enarmoured with Tip and drive my Cayenne in auto all the time. The F1 is in another league. Nevertheless those of you who underestimate how effective the Tip is in perf. driving are making a huge mistake. CF posts said it best. We can argue the merits of manual/Tip all we want but at the end of the day the only thing that matter is how fast you go around a track. 99% of the posters on this board will be faster using Tip.

    The question is do you would to play with yourself and the car or do you want to play with the track?

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Few questions pop in my small mind:

    1) someone mentionned manual/LSD 3 secs faster (NBR) than tip, anyone dare speculating how much faster would the tip be WITH a LSD?

    2) RC mentionned (not in this thread) only the tip with SC is better, does this mean no networking for the non SC tip? Or a different program less agressive?


    Personally, I would be in awe of a transmission that is always in the right gear all the time, adjusting to my mood (ie driving agressiveness), something which has made my Cayenne TT more and more frustrating to drive. Fun is something personal, I agree with RC (and others) when they say not having to manually be in the right gear can be more fun as you can concentrate on your driving line and speed monitoring in corners. Sure changing gears is fun and involving, and maybe this is why the journalists are bashing the tip version, but it is not the only way to have fun.



    3)
    Quote:
    Unlike all other Porsche Tips, this one stays ready as it senses the cars accelleration, deacceleration, speed and the g loadings on the body


    Is that what RC has been trying not to say?

    4) Ferrari's F1 is an auto manual transmission? Someone care to elaborate?

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    All this tehnical mumbo jumbo means nothing if the car is less fun to drive and slower around the track. The latter is a fact that has been confirmed by Porsche and Rohl, the former is subjective but based on the opinions of every journalist who has driven it, the tip is less fun. I think I'll believe the non-biased opinions of the testers who have ACTUALY DRIVEN the car as opposed to the somewhat biased opinion of members who have already ordered a tiptroninc. If you want an automatic then by all means, buy one, but don't try and convince us manual drivers that its superior in anything but a straight line.

    Re: "Tiptronic communicates with systems for a perfect setup

    Quote:
    RC said:
    No, the "brain" of the manual is...the DRIVER. The brain of the Tiptronic is...the 997 Turbo's computer system.




    How you interpert this statement will predicate which car you should purchase.

    Use your brain and think about it

    Re: "Tiptronic communicates with systems for a perfect setup

    I think it's funny how some of the Turbo Tiptronic supporters here actually feel that you have to be a superhero pro driver guy to benefit from a manual. It's like it would hurt their ego to buy the manual car, because they couldn't shift it as fast as Walter Rohrl could. Instead of relishing the process of improving their driving skills over time with the manual, they go the instant gratification route of having a computer take over half the workload and miss out completely on the rewarding experience the manual provides. But I suppose most of those guys just like the stoplight racer consistency the Tip provides that will have their girlfriends swooning over them evertime. Here's a toast to computers that make driving a sportscar EASIER not more fun.

    Re: "Tiptronic communicates with systems for a perfect setup

    In the post by atomic80 (Opus 911...)... he states that the manual "felt" faster though he knew that the Tip was supposed to be faster. He also goes on to state how there was always a bit of lag when he depressed the gas coming out of a corner (in the Tip).

    Interesting comments... because that pretty much sums up the current POS Tip.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Quote:
    trip said:
    All this tehnical mumbo jumbo means nothing if the car is less fun to drive and slower around the track. The latter is a fact that has been confirmed by Porsche and Rohl, the former is subjective but based on the opinions of every journalist who has driven it, the tip is less fun. I think I'll believe the non-biased opinions of the testers who have ACTUALY DRIVEN the car as opposed to the somewhat biased opinion of members who have already ordered a tiptroninc. If you want an automatic then by all means, buy one, but don't try and convince us manual drivers that its superior in anything but a straight line.



    I have to agree w/you many are judging tip before even they had a chance to tst drive especially compared to the manual.
    Some may prefer the integration of the transmission by the computer; but some others may leave the computer choose for the rest but the transmission.

    It seems like the tip guys are trying to defend their position only with the fact that they will be faster and that it is ntworked (big deal)...I respect their view, however, some prefer the "slower" manual tranny because of the freedom, interaction, and control.
    So far, with all respect i have for tip defenders, it seems like the neworked integration is a good start but not enough for almost all persons and journalists who have tried both tranny. Wether it be from france or any other country.

    Moreover, it seems that the manual tranny is faster on track (nurburgring and perhaps others, porshe also mention in the marketing presentation that the real enthusiast would probably choose the manual with the LSD.
    And Walter Rhol was using in spain for him demo of the car for journalists a 997 turbo with manaul tranny.

    And come, some on this forum will let you think it is HARD to shift...I answer hell no! It posssible from time to time to miss a gear but that is it for me. It harder to brake late and find the speedcurve that than to change gears!!!!

    I change gear since more than 20 years, I guess i know how it works!!!
    It is pretty easy to to push on the pedal (clutch) and select the a gear!!!

    I have a 911 2.7 RS from 1973 (real one) and does not have any driver aids! and it is not the transmission that is slowing me with the car but more keeping on the road!

    For me, all these review from different countries give me BIG HINTS on what tranny to take
    To say that all journalist does not know how to drive or can't understand the networked tech. is very arrogant and not realistic for educated people as they explain very well the new tech gizmos and their feeling in the mags!

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Polo, just to remind you, your '73 RS does have one minor assistant - a hydraulic clutch. 911s before yours had no clutch assistance, only a cable and spring, wich is simpler and gives more feel, imho.

    None of the 911's made after 72 shift pattern change require much talent to shift well, on that we might agree. And practically all of the Porsches made starting with the 964 series have been ridiculously easy to drive also.

    The networking of the Tip is a big deal. Currently there is no other full automatic that will automatically downshift as you brake and match gear selection with rpms to have the car in the sweet spot of the powerband. And all of this with input from the speed, brake, engine and suspension sensors that sense the cars dynamics.

    From what info has been given by RC, with Sport Chrono ON the effect is very aggressive.

    What I have not seen mentioned in the press yet is any
    specific testing of the Tip with SC turned ON versus
    one with out that device activated or not present.

    So until I see a definitive review of a TT tip with SC
    switched ON, I think it is more than fair to accept RC's
    information about the Tip in combo with SC.

    He doesn't just make up news.In regards to Porsche technical features he has been 100% accurate and even has often provided information that 99% of magazine testers missed or left out - especially about the effects of Sport Chrono.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    RC, all the subjective reports of everyone who has driven both transmissions favour the manual over the Tip for greater driver enjoyment. Your credibility is damaged by dismissing this steadily growing body of informed opinion.

    Driving the Nordschleife quickly requires detailed track knowledge (that only comes with lots of fast laps). The frequency of gear changes is not very high and most of the track is driven in third and fourth gears. It is not difficult to be in the right gear.

    The LSD and greater control of the manual will not only allow for faster lap times (as the driver's skill level improves with practice) but will also be far more rewarding for the enthusiast.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    AUM, you have missed the entire raison d'etre of the Tip with SC. And to assail someones credibility in conjunction with that leaves yourself wide open for rebuke.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    This is perhaps the last Turbo that allows three-pedal lovers the opportunity to drive a better car than their two-pedal (Tip) friends.

    The next-generation two-pedal PDKs may well make the manual obsolete - another reason to enjoy it now.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    The most funny part of all these is that tomorrow i am going to order too a 997 Turbo TIP.
    I cant wait 1 more year for the 997 GT2. (the new GT3RS seems slow).
    I Was the first that said that tip is for old ladies... (remember the grandmother) but i will order one tomorrow (if they bring it to me since september) (here in Greece we dont have so many orders) and then i will change it with the new 997 GT2.

    RC IF I DONT LIKE THE CAR WITH TIP. I WILL POST EVERYDAY A POST FULL OF "MY BEST WISHES" I promise that to you...

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Polo, just to remind you, your '73 RS does have one minor assistant - a hydraulic clutch. 911s before yours had no clutch assistance, only a cable and spring, wich is simpler and gives more feel, imho.


    Jim - 911's didn't get the hydraulic clutch, until the G50 tranny was introduced in the 1987 Model-Year Carrera 3.2L.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    RC, all the subjective reports of everyone who has driven both transmissions favour the manual over the Tip for greater driver enjoyment. Your credibility is damaged by dismissing this steadily growing body of informed opinion.

    Driving the Nordschleife quickly requires detailed track knowledge (that only comes with lots of fast laps). The frequency of gear changes is not very high and most of the track is driven in third and fourth gears. It is not difficult to be in the right gear.

    The LSD and greater control of the manual will not only allow for faster lap times (as the driver's skill level improves with practice) but will also be far more rewarding for the enthusiast.


    In basically every report I have seen, the car has been equiped with Sport Chrono and to my knowledge it was used by the journalists. Lets get real, Porsche obviously supplied the testers with Tip w/SC and there is absolutely no reason why journalists would neglect the sport button when doing a review of a car like this. It seems that you and possibly RC are in severe denial.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Polo, just to remind you, your '73 RS does have one minor assistant - a hydraulic clutch. 911s before yours had no clutch assistance, only a cable and spring, wich is simpler and gives more feel, imho.


    Jim - 911's didn't get the hydraulic clutch, until the G50 tranny was introduced in the 1987 Model-Year Carrera 3.2L.



    True...the 2.7 rs has just a break assistance nothing more...

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Quote:
    trip said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    RC, all the subjective reports of everyone who has driven both transmissions favour the manual over the Tip for greater driver enjoyment. Your credibility is damaged by dismissing this steadily growing body of informed opinion.

    Driving the Nordschleife quickly requires detailed track knowledge (that only comes with lots of fast laps). The frequency of gear changes is not very high and most of the track is driven in third and fourth gears. It is not difficult to be in the right gear.

    The LSD and greater control of the manual will not only allow for faster lap times (as the driver's skill level improves with practice) but will also be far more rewarding for the enthusiast.


    In basically every report I have seen, the car has been equiped with Sport Chrono and to my knowledge it was used by the journalists. Lets get real, Porsche obviously supplied the testers with Tip w/SC and there is absolutely no reason why journalists would neglect the sport button when doing a review of a car like this. It seems that you and possibly RC are in severe denial.



    I have to agree with you, the tip tried in flat6 mag had sport chrono, and the journalist mentioned turning on the SC and even disconnecting all aid...

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    'It seems that you (JimFlat6) and possibly RC are in severe denial.'Trip


    +++ Denial (of reality) is much more of a problem for RC - it puts his credibility as the Rennteam Editor at risk.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    +++ Denial (of reality) is much more of a problem for RC - it puts his credibility as the Rennteam Editor at risk.



    Guess what...I heard this one before.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Quote:
    Aisxos said:
    RC IF I DONT LIKE THE CAR WITH TIP. I WILL POST EVERYDAY A POST FULL OF "MY BEST WISHES" I promise that to you...



    OK now...how old are you? If you think Tip is wrong for you, don't get it. Don't blame it on me, I'm just a messenger.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    RC, all the subjective reports of everyone who has driven both transmissions favour the manual over the Tip for greater driver enjoyment. Your credibility is damaged by dismissing this steadily growing body of informed opinion.The LSD and greater control of the manual will not only allow for faster lap times (as the driver's skill level improves with practice) but will also be far more rewarding for the enthusiast.



    You just earned yourself an invitation to our Rennteam shootout. Stay tuned for details as soon as I get my car.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    No one is denying that the tip is faster in a straight line. You must realize that not evryone cares about a few imperceptible tenths of a second in 0-60 times, especially when it comes at the expense of driver involvment/enjoyment, acceleration above 200 kph, and lap times. The tip is not the enthusiasts choice, period. I don't know what inviting a 6 speed turbo to the shootout will prove except for whats already been observed by every single person who has tested both cars. The tip is faster (below 200 kph) but less fun.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Quote:
    AUM said:

    The next-generation two-pedal PDKs may well make the manual obsolete - another reason to enjoy it now.



    Need to move forward with technology. I think is more of a psychological thing for people to defend manual tanny but time has changed my friend.

    Were you also disappointed when 8-track was replaced by cassette decades ago?

    If the driver's involvement is the concern I can promise you that with Tip or upcoming PDK Porsche will be still as involving as the Manual.

    Re: 997 Turbo drive impression in EVO

    Again how can you say that you promise the Tip will be as involving as manual when EVERY person who has driven the car says otherwise? Have you driven both cars? If not how can you make this promise? This is the type of nonsense that is huting the credibility of some of the Rennteam moderators.

     
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