Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production? - Page2

May 7, 2006 3:26:31 AM

B_Rust: Junior; Loc: Vancouver, Canada; Posts: 85, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2006

Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

20 years ago this would be a foolish question however now cars are becoming more and more equiped with the latest Technology and luxeries, BMW used to be all about the Driving experience however now they are more consumed with the fact of luxery and being on the same level as Mercedes-Benz,

I had a chance to check out the Lotus Elise a few days ago and I believe this car to be the only true last remaining Driver car in production, I would like to hear what you guys think about my question, Ben

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May 7, 2006 6:21:04 AM

Justin: Veteran; Loc: San Diego, CA, USA; Posts: 979, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 12, 2003; Reply to: B_Rust

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Such cars are becoming fewer and fewer, but the public doesn't really want to drive this kind of car on the street in most situations. There is a definite trend for people to want to go as fast as possible with less effort. more comfort, and more safety (e.g. 997TT). Nothing wrong with this however. For those who drive their sports cars daily, perhaps this makess more sense. Many people would ask why they should choose a GT3 over a 997TT, when they would be more slow in most situations.

As for the Elise, I suspect the impracticality and lack of power (240 supercharged Exige version fixes this) keep many away. A Cayman S, for example, has similar performance, if not better, on most track tracks. The Elise places the driver experience higher on the list of priorities. With any car, compromise is the key.

Some others:
- Noble M400
- Caterhams/Westfields
- Porsche GT3 (but still quite a bit more civil than a Caterham for example)), Ferrari Stradale series
- Ariel Atom

You can also convert certain cars to feel more raw and still enjoy streetability (e.g. stripping out your M3 or 911). But it's easier to buy such a car and have all the tuning already complete (GT3, Noble, etc.).

Rennteam Grant has a very interesting 911.

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May 7, 2006 6:53:20 AM

Thomas: Co-Pilot; Loc: DE, Munich; Posts: 172, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2002; Reply to: B_Rust

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Hi,

Quote:
B_Rust said:
I had a chance to check out the Lotus Elise a few days ago and I believe this car to be the only true last remaining Driver car in production, I would like to hear what you guys think about my question, Ben

I'm very happy with my Radical.

Cheers
Thomas

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May 7, 2006 7:01:01 AM

dsts6: Senior; Loc: California; Posts: 719, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Thomas

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

farboud GTS, noble, lotus, caparo T1, mbroadcars EOS, ariel atom, ariel atom EV car, upcoming brammo supercars, some other new brittish super cars, some stuff shown at the topmarques moncaco

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May 7, 2006 8:48:10 AM

intouch1: Rennteam Master; Loc: Red Sea , Egypt; Posts: 5752, Gallery; Registered on: May 22, 2004; Reply to: dsts6

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

what is a true sportscar ? heck, you can also buy formula 1 cars if you like.

do you mean street legal, production car ? then the porsche gt2 and gt3 certainly apply. especially the rs if you like minimalist.

the elise is certainly a sports car, but not a daily driver.

what about an ac cobra with the 427 engine. certainly minimalist too, straight line performance.

pagani zonda anyone ?
m3 csl
clk dtm
murci sv
challenge stradale
mitsu evo

and many more.....

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May 7, 2006 1:53:17 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59605, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: intouch1

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Quote:
intouch1 said:
what is a true sportscar ? heck, you can also buy formula 1 cars if you like.

do you mean street legal, production car ? then the porsche gt2 and gt3 certainly apply. especially the rs if you like minimalist.

the elise is certainly a sports car, but not a daily driver.

what about an ac cobra with the 427 engine. certainly minimalist too, straight line performance.

pagani zonda anyone ?
m3 csl
clk dtm
murci sv
challenge stradale
mitsu evo

and many more.....

I couldn't agree more.

"True Driver" sportscar seems to mean for some people low weight, lots of power, only one seat and a suspension setup that makes you impotent sooner or later if you don't have a cushion under your butt.

Guys, you need to make a distinction about a race car, track car or street car. True track addicts have a car for the track only, they usually transport it on a trailer or leave it next to the track in a storage place.
For street driving? Well: I would feel more safe in a 997 Turbo than in a Lotus Elise on the street. Not to mention the fact that I would be faster.

Not sure I'm always getting the point of such discussions but maybe some of you need to learn how to be REAL fast in a heavy car to understand the challenge to drive such a car at the REAL limit, not the limit you might feel.

But to make it short: in my opinion, the best buy for the buck for fast driving on the street and as a daily commuter, is the Porsche Boxster S. You can drive the hell out of his car, it won't be able to keep up with those superfast limousines, GTs on the Autobahn but on a tight track and/or street, the Boxster S is so much fun.

Cars like the Lotus Elise are just a compromise. They may be fun if you're using them just for a few fun hours on weekends. But otherwise, whats the deal?!
And they're not really cheap (anymore), a well equipped Lotus Elise or others already hit Boxster S grounds, at least over here in Germany.

The Radical? Interesting product but the name says it all.
Buying a Hajabusa may be the same fun for less money.

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May 7, 2006 5:00:16 PM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: RC

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Quote:
RC said:
But to make it short: in my opinion, the best buy for the buck for fast driving on the street and as a daily commuter, is the Porsche Boxster S. You can drive the hell out of his car, it won't be able to keep up with those superfast limousines, GTs on the Autobahn but on a tight track and/or street, the Boxster S is so much fun.

Wise words spoken

I had a closer look at the Elise also before finally deciding to get the 987 S. I was looking for a sporty driver's toy for the weekend whereas my wife needed a not too boring car for daily commuting. So either we might have bought two cars (maybe an Elise or something similar for me plus maybe a Mini Cooper S or similar for the wife) or we had to find one car delivering in both categories: sporty driving + daily use with some amenities. After extensive testing of a lot of cars it became clear to us that the Boxster S provides the best of both worlds: enough practicality as a daily commuter and really a sporty driver's car (especially with activated Sport Chrono + PASM in sport mode + short-shifter) at the same time.

Like always finally it's a question of wallet thickness and garage space: if the sky is the limit you may have a 997 TT as your daily driver, a GT3 for track use and a Radical for serious racing

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May 7, 2006 7:06:46 PM

911fan: Senior; Loc: usa; Posts: 554, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 20, 2005; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

S2000 is nice too.

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May 7, 2006 7:31:26 PM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: 911fan

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

The high revv concept disqualifies the car for daily commuting IMO unless the Nordschleife is your way to the office

- if you want to really enjoy it, you have to drive it like a bike on four wheels (but then it has it's merits)

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May 8, 2006 12:12:38 AM

bazza: Expert; Loc: uk,za; Posts: 1393, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 29, 2005; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

how about this one guys !!

http://www.caparo-t1.com/

it will be king for the next 10years!

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May 8, 2006 2:13:32 AM

911fan: Senior; Loc: usa; Posts: 554, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 20, 2005; Reply to: bazza

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

I have never driven the S2000 actually, it sound like it sucks unless its at 8k rpm.

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May 8, 2006 6:18:19 AM

vladimir: Co-Pilot; Loc: Toronto; Posts: 197, Gallery; Registered on: May 16, 2003; Reply to: bazza

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

z06

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May 8, 2006 6:52:16 AM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: vladimir

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Quote:
vladimir said:
z06

Oh man...

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May 8, 2006 11:59:32 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59605, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: vladimir

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Quote:
vladimir said:
z06

Well, if I would live in the US, this would surely be an alternative to the Boxster S but ONLY if you don't want to use it as a daily driver.

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May 8, 2006 4:06:06 PM

pierre: Veteran; Loc: there , Switzerland; Posts: 1192, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 7, 2002; Reply to: bazza

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Quote:
bazza said:
how about this one guys !!

http://www.caparo-t1.com/

it will be king for the next 10years!

But the T1 isn't road-legal yet.

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May 8, 2006 5:01:16 PM

SciFrog: Rennteam VIP; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 9870, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 15, 2005; Reply to: pierre

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

http://www.supercars.net/cars/3180.html

2005 Donkervoort D8 270 RS

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May 8, 2006 6:30:13 PM

dreamcar: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Hampshire , United Kingdom; Posts: 8797, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 19, 2004; Reply to: 911fan

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Quote:
911fan said:
S2000 is nice too.

I've had one and I was not impressed. Unless you drive it like your arse is on fire at 8,000 rpm it feels like a Civic. Then it just feels like a fast Civic. A proper sports car should feel special at any speed. And the S2000 doesn't.

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May 8, 2006 7:03:11 PM

964C2: Expert; Loc: Dallas, TX , United States; Posts: 1825, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: dreamcar

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

I like that phrase, "....feel special at any speed".

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May 8, 2006 7:28:56 PM

RonnieC6Z: Co-Pilot; Loc: california; Posts: 194, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2006; Reply to: 964C2

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

We all have our likes and dislikes, but for me its my 06 Z06 Vette. It is, as it must be, my daily driver here in So Cal, where I can experience twisty canyon roads as well as open freeways every day. The car, for me, must have a 6 speed tranny, a big powerful V8 with gobs of torque, a deep nasty sounding exhaust system, have only 2 seats, handle fabulously, be fast as hell, and, at the same time be comfortable, with nice seats, a good sound system and a great air conditioner. And it must look like it just wants to GO! The Z, for me, is it!

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May 8, 2006 7:42:22 PM

95jersey: Senior; Loc: US; Posts: 578, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 20, 2006; Reply to: RonnieC6Z

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

I like the 911 RS option...I think it's cool that Porsche sells such a car, especially with a roll cage (now that is cool)

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May 9, 2006 6:25:58 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Quote:
RC said:
... maybe some of you need to learn how to be REAL fast in a heavy car to understand the challenge to drive such a car at the REAL limit, not the limit you might feel...

Interesting point you bring into the discussion - and in my eyes, that's what it boils down to.
Of course, you can conceal a car's weight to a certain extend but in some way it will always be obvious. This is the exact problem - what do I need a car for that can go to 60 in the blink of an eye but leaves me pretty unchallenged. Unless one appreciates the joys of technical perfection, which is definately a nice thing, or in a worse case resticts himself to bragging about their achieved topspeed or acceleration times they will never find the joy in mastering the controls of such a car.

One vital element on a sportscar for me is the connection with the driver - no matter how modern or powerful such a car is, it needs to have this vital element. In any other case, I'd be driving a Mercedes.

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May 9, 2006 7:56:18 PM

RonnieC6Z: Co-Pilot; Loc: california; Posts: 194, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2006; Reply to: RC

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
vladimir said:
z06

Well, if I would live in the US, this would surely be an alternative to the Boxster S but ONLY if you don't want to use it as a daily driver.

RC...get a clue. I'm sure they have them somewhere in Germany. I know about 6 other people that own a Z. They ALL use them for a daily driver. I drive 18,000 miles a year...in traffic, on freeways, in canyons...rain or shine...I use my Z for a daily driver, as do MOST Z owners in the states. Do you own a new Z...NO! Have you driven a new Z for any length of time...NO! So why do you form opinions without any knowledge or experience. Oh....dumb question...I forgot whom i was addressing!!!

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May 9, 2006 10:10:42 PM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: RonnieC6Z

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Ronnie, you might have misunderstood RC's posting. The Z got very positve reviews in all German carmags IMO (though some people - even here at Rennteam - assume that the German carmags are corrupted by German carmakers).
I for one (being a sportscar fan whatever the brand may be

) would like to test the new Z. But in all honesty - even if I would love the car after the testdrive I would not have the balls to show up with this type of car at my customer's places

I'm not an image seeker when it comes to cars (otherwise I wouldn't drive a 987 S

), but a Z does not suit to serious business over here in Germany. May be totally unfair considering the technical merits of the car (as I said I'm not the one to judge as I didn't drive the car up to date) - but that's how it is and I guess therefore RC referred to the Z as a weekend toy only

Enjoy your car but please accept that there is no such thing as "universal reality" (even in our so called globalized world). Even if your Z would be better in terms of 0-100 times, topspeed or Nordschleife-laptime compared to whatever Porsche you name, there will be a difference, because to a sportscar's lover there is more than just numbers - so I might prefer my "girly Porsche" to your macho "real deal sportscar" - you see, you are not the only one with an "image problem" in the sports car's world

Get over it and enjoy your car as much as I do but don't try to defense your choice by neglecting the merits of other brands

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May 9, 2006 10:33:05 PM

RonnieC6Z: Co-Pilot; Loc: california; Posts: 194, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2006; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:
Ronnie, you might have misunderstood RC's posting. The Z got very positve reviews in all German carmags IMO (though some people - even here at Rennteam - assume that the German carmags are corrupted by German carmakers).
I for one (being a sportscar fan whatever the brand may be ) would like to test the new Z. But in all honesty - even if I would love the car after the testdrive I would not have the balls to show up with this type of car at my customer's places I'm not an image seeker when it comes to cars (otherwise I wouldn't drive a 987 S ), but a Z does not suit to serious business over here in Germany. May be totally unfair considering the technical merits of the car (as I said I'm not the one to judge as I didn't drive the car up to date) - but that's how it is and I guess therefore RC referred to the Z as a weekend toy only
Enjoy your car but please accept that there is no such thing as "universal reality" (even in our so called globalized world). Even if your Z would be better in terms of 0-100 times, topspeed or Nordschleife-laptime compared to whatever Porsche you name, there will be a difference, because to a sportscar's lover there is more than just numbers - so I might prefer my "girly Porsche" to your macho "real deal sportscar" - you see, you are not the only one with an "image problem" in the sports car's world
Get over it and enjoy your car as much as I do but don't try to defense your choice by neglecting the merits of other brands

I understand what you are saying and do agree with much of it. This thread was about any true driver sports cars, and different folks expressed what, to each individual, qualified. One fellow simply replied "Z06", to which RC chimed in that it is not a daily driver. I do not believe
RC was refering to "image". It was just another opportunity for him to take another small potshot at the Z, without any experience with the car. As far as not showing up at a customers place of business in a Z, I cannot imagine living in a society where it made a difference whether you showed up anywhere in a Z vs a Porsche. If you live in such a society, then I feel for you. Finally, no where in this thread did i neglect the merits of other brands. The only time I mentioned the P-car is to state that I have owned them and do not want another.

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May 9, 2006 11:15:14 PM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: RonnieC6Z

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Quote:
RonnieC6Z said:
I do not believe
RC was refering to "image". It was just another opportunity for him to take another small potshot at the Z, without any experience with the car. As far as not showing up at a customers place of business in a Z, I cannot imagine living in a society where it made a difference whether you showed up anywhere in a Z vs a Porsche. If you live in such a society, then I feel for you.

Regarding RC's view I stop making assumptions what he thinks (dumb idea),but though I think he's a Porsche guy (like most guys here on Rennteam) I'm convinved that he has respect for all true sportscars anyway.
Regarding the society thing: I'm a big fan of the US attitude (actually I hate what's going on in Germany right now) - but I do not believe that the US society does not know the "image thing" (I've been to the US maybe 15X, so I guess I know what I'm talking about). To be more precise: 13X out of the 15X have been business trips -what do you think my US business partners drove

Yes, Porsche, M-BMW, and AMG-Merc, Ferrari, Maserati - no single Corvette

To add an ironic remark: one of my German business partners is driving a 1960 Corvette - I just love this car (American designers obviously knew something in the 60s), but the Corvette image is still suffering from what the GM engineers started in the 70s).
Bottom Line: if you tell me that the US society has nothing to do with "image" I do not believe you until other Rennteamers tell me so

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May 9, 2006 11:28:06 PM

RonnieC6Z: Co-Pilot; Loc: california; Posts: 194, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2006; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:
Quote:
RonnieC6Z said:
I do not believe
RC was refering to "image". It was just another opportunity for him to take another small potshot at the Z, without any experience with the car. As far as not showing up at a customers place of business in a Z, I cannot imagine living in a society where it made a difference whether you showed up anywhere in a Z vs a Porsche. If you live in such a society, then I feel for you.

Regarding RC's view I stop making assumptions what he thinks (dumb idea),but though I think he's a Porsche guy (like most guys here on Rennteam) I'm convinved that he has respect for all true sportscars anyway.
Regarding the society thing: I'm a big fan of the US attitude (actually I hate what's going on in Germany right now) - but I do not believe that the US society does not know the "image thing" (I've been to the US maybe 15X, so I guess I know what I'm talking about). To be more precise: 13X out of the 15X have been business trips -what do you think my US business partners drove Yes, Porsche, M-BMW, and AMG-Merc, Ferrari, Maserati - no single Corvette
To add an ironic remark: one of my German business partners is driving a 1960 Corvette - I just love this car (American designers obviously knew something in the 60s), but the Corvette image is still suffering from what the GM engineers started in the 70s).
Bottom Line: if you tell me that the US society has nothing to do with "image" I do not believe you until other Rennteamers tell me so

Good point...I will have to agree with you on that. I was just thinking about the Vette vs Porsche image, but in reality, I think you are correct on this also. I am not into the image thing, but, yes, sadly, it exists here also.

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May 10, 2006 12:14:42 AM

SVNSVN: Rennteam Pro; Loc: CA, USA; Posts: 2994, Gallery; Registered on: May 22, 2005; Reply to: RonnieC6Z

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Porsche-Jeck,

I LOVE YOU MAN!

You should run for office- I absolutely mean that in a positive way!

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May 10, 2006 12:54:24 AM

911fan: Senior; Loc: usa; Posts: 554, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 20, 2005; Reply to: dreamcar

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Quote:
I've had one and I was not impressed. Unless you drive it like your arse is on fire at 8,000 rpm it feels like a Civic. Then it just feels like a fast Civic. A proper sports car should feel special at any speed. And the S2000 doesn't.

I've never driven one so thats good to know. I was actually considering one but am worried about the low torque.

Another real drivers car? Ford Mustang! I kid...

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May 10, 2006 10:38:05 AM

Dr. Phil: Rennteam Master; Loc: Denmark , Denmark; Posts: 5884, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 30, 2004; Reply to: 911fan

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Ronnie, I hear what you are saying, and it sounds to me like you have a great car, and feel compelled to share this with the rest of us.
Please do so!

RC ( and everybody else in here) has his own opinion about cars, and rather than trying to convert/convince him - or every other guy that doesnt share your views - you might be better off simply accepting that we all have different tastes.
As Ive stated before, I'd LOVE to take the Z06 for a spin, but I'd never buy one. Disregard the fact that it's appr. 300,000 USD here in Denmark, the brand "Vette" simply has a different image than Porsche or Ferrrari here in Denmark, and I believe, in very many other European countries.
And like it or not, we ALL buy into a cars brand / image, whether we like it or not. And while a great car in so many ways - including being a driver's car without a doubt - the Z06 does not suit my needs.

A neighbour of mine just bought an Aston Martin Vantage.....AAAARGH!!!
Now THAT is a car I'd love to own

But at 500,000 USD + its a bit out of my league

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May 10, 2006 6:59:44 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:
... but the Corvette image is still suffering from what the GM engineers started in the 70s)...

It wasn't the engineers alone but also the people who droe these cars in Germany.
I wasn't one of them, definately.

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Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

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Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

Re: Is There Any True DRIVER sports cars left in production?

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