Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - is all this electronics leading to problems in future?

Apr 20, 2006 12:39:06 PM

pic911s: Junior; Loc: canada; Posts: 145, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 2, 2005

is all this electronics leading to problems in future?

Brought in my P car to the dealership as my pcm wasn't accepting cd's. Radio was working fine - no other problems. Got a call from dealership told me pcm was shot and ordered new one up from Atlanta. Car had to stay overnight but I had a loaner from them so no real problem Got the call from the dealership to say car was ready and come pick it up. Drive 1 hr 40 minutes in traffic to dealership and get there and am told pcm they installed is shot and won't even fire up. They noticed after I left the office and couldn't reach me.

.

Dealer has offerred to deliver my car downton but I'm not really keen on some techi driving my car.

Is the electronics going to give us future problems. $3700 for new pcm plus install if i had to pay. Luckily all under warranty.

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Apr 20, 2006 1:39:35 PM

edz: Rennteam Pro; Loc: South Orange County; Posts: 2022, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 11, 2005; Reply to: pic911s

Re: is all this electronics leading to problems in future?

You think this is bad take a look at the BMW's. My bro's new 7 has been to the shop 3 times in 2 months. The electronics in that are bogus and are bound to break down. Porsche's are more simple taht's why I like them. I want an engine, trans and a suspension + good looks

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Apr 20, 2006 2:32:21 PM

Silver Bullet: Veteran; Loc: Canada; Posts: 1126, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: edz

Re: is all this electronics leading to problems in future?

I really worry about reliability of the added complexity of PASM. I wish the -20 mm sport suspension was available in NA.

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Apr 20, 2006 2:55:33 PM

Dan L: Expert; Loc: Santa Barbara, CA , United States; Posts: 1957, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2006; Reply to: Silver Bullet

Re: is all this electronics leading to problems in future?

I posted this elsewhere but it worth repeating. "Infant mortality" is where you see the electronics failing shortly after coming into service (i.e., a new car). Fortunately, most solid state devices, once burned in and performing well, will continue to serve you well a long time after that. Hence warranties, to get you through the IM. However, where we NEED to be more concerned is failures well after the warranty has expired. We will begin to see more of this unfortunately as the global economy has been moving to lead-free electronic parts. Lead-free (RoHS) compliance of these small parts means that they are generally made out of tin, instead of lead. Over time (months for tightly packed printed wiring boards) or years (for looser assemblies) these assemblies will develop 'tin-whiskers' which are tiny microscopic growths of native tin away from the components themselves into arbitrary directions and can lead to shorts. In space and defense department applications we have been able to avoid going to RoHS compliance (as some have deemed space and defense more important) by maintaining a minimum of 14% lead in such components. Unfortunately, the automotive world will get the tin parts and will begin to see serious failures of components over time. Conformal coating these PWBs will not avert the problem. If you want to learn more about this growing problem,--do a search on tin whiskers online. This is going to be a serious issue.

Dan

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Apr 20, 2006 2:56:48 PM

SrfCity: Expert; Loc: Orange County, CA; Posts: 1339, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 21, 2004; Reply to: Silver Bullet

Re: is all this electronics leading to problems in future?

To answer your question, yes. IMO these cars out of warranty may get very pricey. OTOH, after 4 years of getting the bugs out you'd think that there would be few problems after that.

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Apr 20, 2006 3:10:55 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: SrfCity

Re: is all this electronics leading to problems in future?

Same problems with my PCM. Never worked properly, not even at delivery ( I was stupid not to push every button to check).

Unfortunately I'm with you pic911s. I'm "scared" to keep this car after warrenty. It has an unprecedented amount of computer-controlled functions and systems. The sunroof button actually eventually caused my NAV/PCM/CD to crash!!!!! WTF? Rubbing the headlight caused the hood to pop open in another guy's car. Who knows what f'up will occur in a 90K mile car? Holy COW! No kidding, this car is going as soon as the warrenty is up..., or as soon as I get a us$3000 repair bill after the warrenty is up. geezuz!!!

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Apr 20, 2006 3:12:55 PM

Damian: Senior; Loc: Pa, USA; Posts: 646, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 10, 2005; Reply to: Dan L

Re: is all this electronics leading to problems in future?

Quote:
Dan L said:
I posted this elsewhere but it worth repeating. "Infant mortality" is where you see the electronics failing shortly after coming into service (i.e., a new car). Fortunately, most solid state devices, once burned in and performing well, will continue to serve you well a long time after that. Hence warranties, to get you through the IM. However, where we NEED to be more concerned is failures well after the warranty has expired. We will begin to see more of this unfortunately as the global economy has been moving to lead-free electronic parts. Lead-free (RoHS) compliance of these small parts means that they are generally made out of tin, instead of lead. Over time (months for tightly packed printed wiring boards) or years (for looser assemblies) these assemblies will develop 'tin-whiskers' which are tiny microscopic growths of native tin away from the components themselves into arbitrary directions and can lead to shorts. In space and defense department applications we have been able to avoid going to RoHS compliance (as some have deemed space and defense more important) by maintaining a minimum of 14% lead in such components. Unfortunately, the automotive world will get the tin parts and will begin to see serious failures of components over time. Conformal coating these PWBs will not avert the problem. If you want to learn more about this growing problem,--do a search on tin whiskers online. This is going to be a serious issue.

Dan

thanks for the information, Dan.

How recently was the lead content regulated out of these components?

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Apr 20, 2006 3:13:04 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Dan L

Re: is all this electronics leading to problems in future?

Quote:
Dan L said:
If you want to learn more about this growing problem,--do a search on tin whiskers online. This is going to be a serious issue.

Dan

UN FREEKIN REAL!!! WOWOWOWOOWOW!!!

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Apr 20, 2006 3:32:37 PM

wangt1015: Co-Pilot; Loc: CA, USA; Posts: 284, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 10, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: is all this electronics leading to problems in future?

holly cow... i didn't know that it was that bad!

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Apr 20, 2006 4:56:49 PM

Dan L: Expert; Loc: Santa Barbara, CA , United States; Posts: 1957, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2006; Reply to: Damian

Re: is all this electronics leading to problems in future?

thanks for the information, Dan.

How recently was the lead content regulated out of these components?

The RoHS compliance business varies from country to country but is already happening,--has been happening for some time. I believe in the EU we're talking 1 July 2006.

A quick way to see the reality of this hitting home is on your wheels,--of all places! Take a closer look sometime at the 'lead' wheel weights on your wheels. They aren't lead anymore,--they are an alloy made from copper, zinc and some other stuff to eliminate lead from usage. As such (because of lesser specific gravities) they will be dimensionally larger than their lead counterparts.

Here's a good synopsis on the tin whiskers problems for printed wiring boards (PWBs):
http://ap.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_D...TICLE_ID=217488

Here's another useful link from NASA:

http://parts.jpl.nasa.gov/whiskers/

dan

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