Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - GT3 questions / comments

Apr 14, 2006 5:50:57 AM

Jay: Pilot; Loc: NZ / OZ , Japan; Posts: 321, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 6, 2002

GT3 questions / comments

GT3 questions.

Gear box:

I know 997GT3 has manual only. Why do the Carrera Cup cars have a "six speed sequential dog type"? What on earth is this? Is it a DSG / PDK and why doesn't the street GT3 have it?

P cite the torque of the 997 Turbo as a reason for no DSG / PDK yet. Surely for the GT3 this can not be the complete reason?

Any rumour on when we will have DSG/PDK in a GT3 or is it a marketing / waiting game again by P?

Traction:

I see 997GT3 has ABD, ASR and MSR. Why doesn't P introduce PSM on the standard GT3 (with a complete off switch)? Wouldn't that be sensible to use their best technology (i.e.PSM). (PSM and LSD can work together right?). [PSM has (ABS), ASR, ABD and MSR anyway]. Or have I got it wrong and it is PSM without the name?

Anyone know what MSR is?

What do the 'pure GT3 people' make of this TC?

Did the 996 GT3 have this?

Power:

Why wasn't there any power upgrade (apart from a minor torque change) between the last 996 Cup car and the 997 Cup car? Then, is the new GT3 a real upgrade (w.r.t. power)? (or a mere catch-up to the 2004 Cup cars?).

Info:

It's really hard to gather even the basic specs for new/old GT3's. The easiest way seems to be through the UK Car configurator. Another good site is GT3.com. If you go to the official P GT3 site you get sent of on an endless shockwave journey. Is it possible to sticky all basic specs (of each car) in each section?

GT3 section:

I know it's been asked before, but because of so much specific interest in GT3 (especially from new TT people like me), could we have a GT3 dedicated section.

Background:

I am a potential 'new' GT3 person. I am probably a PDK TT buyer, but don't intend to use the car as a daily driver, so hence a GT3 with PDK would be great - if only it had PSM. PSM would provide some degree of forgiveness, and I've appreciated that in the past. I understand that I am not a 'pure' GT3 person - but I wouldn't ask for a GT3 with tip! I just believe manual is dead. Those that can truly drive these cars are rare (even the P pro drivers seem to have a hard time). I always found P cars confidence inspiring, and want to keep it that way. (no flames please).

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Apr 14, 2006 6:43:47 AM

Erik: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 172, Gallery; Registered on: May 21, 2002; Reply to: Jay

Re: GT3 questions / comments

Quote:
I see 997GT3 has ABD, ASR and MSR. Why doesn't P introduce PSM on the standard GT3 (with a complete off switch)? Wouldn't that be sensible to use their best technology (i.e.PSM). (PSM and LSD can work together right?). [PSM has (ABS), ASR, ABD and MSR anyway]. Or have I got it wrong and it is PSM without the name? Anyone know what MSR is?

PSM is only compatible with LSD when using less aggressive locking rates. Locking rates for the new 997 GT3 is 28% under power and 40% on overrun. The Carrera and Carrera S equipped with the Sports Chassis option features a combo of 22/27. It is interesting to note that the 996 GT3 was even more aggressive with its 40/60. That car did not feature traction control. The traction control on the new GT3 is more advanced than some would have you believe, but it is indeed not going to help you much with understeer and momentum oversteer situations. The 997TT with its computer controlled AWD and PSM is a much safer choice for the concerned driver.

Quote:
Why wasn't there any power upgrade (apart from a minor torque change) between the last 996 Cup car and the 997 Cup car? Then, is the new GT3 a real upgrade (w.r.t. power)? (or a mere catch-up to the 2004 Cup cars?).

I haven't looked at the specs, but it is important to remember that the Cup cars are built mainly with the purpose of running in a 1 make series. Therefore, there isn't much pressure or need to always be increasing the power output of the engines. As far as the roadcar goes ,415hp from a 3.6L is allot

and Porsche claims it sets a record in that regard.

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Apr 14, 2006 1:10:43 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 7675, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Jay

Re: GT3 questions / comments

Quote:
Jay said:
I know 997GT3 has manual only. Why do the Carrera Cup cars have a "six speed sequential dog type"? What on earth is this? Is it a DSG / PDK and why doesn't the street GT3 have it?

It's the same basic Getrag gearbox, but with a different manual shift mechanism giving a sequential shift gate. The "dog" refers to unsynchronised dog-clutch gear engagement.
It is not a DSK or PDK concept, and due to lack of synchronisers would be very unlikely to be sufficiently user-friendly or durable for road-car use.

Quote:
Jay said:
PI am a potential 'new' GT3 person. I am probably a PDK TT buyer, but don't intend to use the car as a daily driver, so hence a GT3 with PDK would be great - if only it had PSM. PSM would provide some degree of forgiveness, and I've appreciated that in the past. I understand that I am not a 'pure' GT3 person - but I wouldn't ask for a GT3 with tip! I just believe manual is dead. Those that can truly drive these cars are rare (even the P pro drivers seem to have a hard time). I always found P cars confidence inspiring, and want to keep it that way. (no flames please).

As an engineer, I also believe that a manual gearbox should be dead in 2006.
But it refuses to do the decent thing by lying down and keeping quiet.

As long as the systems intended to replace it are not clearly better in all disciplines, the manual gearbox will continue to defy logic by finding buyers amongst those drivers who look upon a sports car as being a means of honing their own skills, and not for compensating for their lack of skills.

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Apr 14, 2006 1:14:48 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 22699, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: fritz

Re: GT3 questions / comments

Quote:
fritz said:
the manual gearbox will continue to defy logic by finding buyers amongst those drivers who look upon a sports car as being a means of honing their own skills, and not for compensating for their lack of skills.

Oh boy...I just love your comments.

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Apr 14, 2006 1:32:28 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam Master; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 5834, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: fritz

Re: GT3 questions / comments

True sports cars in 2006 with sequential gearboxes:
BMW M6(maybe not a true sportscar...)
Ferrari F430F1
Ferrari 599GTB
Lamborghini Gallardo(e.gear but, manual is better)
Lamborghini Murcielago(same as above)

Slush box true sports cars:
Mercedes SLR
Porsche 997 Turbo(sorry RC I almost forgot it!)

Manual box true sports cars:
Aston Martin V8 Vantage
Corvette Z06
Dodge Viper SRT-10
Ford GT40
Pagani Zonda S
Porsche Cayman S
Porsche 997 Carrera/Carrera S/Carrera 4/Carrera 4
Porsche 997 Turbo(with optional LSD)
Porsche Carrera GT

And maybe few others...
Interesting thing that only few companies decided to go for sequential gearbox...
And what about automatic!? Does it really belong in true sportscar??

Blame technical departments of all companies mentioned above-NOT buyers because in 2006 most(if not all) true sportscars are with manual gearboxes.

New King of the Ring could be 997 Turbo but, not TIP version... Just my opinion...

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Apr 14, 2006 2:10:08 PM

The Groom: Expert; Loc: EU; Posts: 1779, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 23, 2005; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: GT3 questions / comments

Automatic does not have to mean sluggish. Need I remember you that automatic gearbox were banned from F1 because they were too damn fast?
They were also banned because they were very expensive and complicated. It's hard to get it right, and the 997 TT shows that better integration can make a huge difference.

I'm not a fundamentalist of any type of gearbox. Whatever the type of gearbox, if it does the job bettter, it's better. End of story.
The 997 TT Tiptronic gearbox is faster, more convenient (important since many 911 are daily drivers), and it's reliable enough (unlike the SMG for instance). So, for the time being, the Tip is the better gearbox on the 997 TT.

Sure, the PDK should theoretically be the better gearbox. But I prefer a torque-converter Tiptronic that works rather than a PDK that isn't ready for prime-time yet. Fortunately, Porsche feels that way too, and won't release it until it is.

If you think a sportscar HAS to be a manual, you must think Morgans are the only true sports cars. Are you one of those that can tell the brand of a cigarette just by rolling on a butt?

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Apr 14, 2006 2:25:29 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam Master; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 5834, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: The Groom

Re: GT3 questions / comments

My comment was based on THE FACT that most sports cars manufactures are not been able yet to produce truly reliable sequential gearbox yet! Even Ferrari's F1 is not proven yet...
My question for you-are you truly beliving that Automatic gearbox is the prime choice for sportscars? Autobox is a good choice for charged engines(997 Turbo or Mercedes SLR) but, NOT for high reving NA engines. Not now and not in a few year time at least...
PDK(or DSG)... Did you try new VW Golf GTI with DSG? Well, I did and manual version is a lot better IMO. More driver involvment, etc(maybe my Karting background is here in play).
And I am looking at each car as a complete package. For example if 997 Turbo was designed from ground up as TIP I would never buy manual version because it is then simple add on! But, Porsche claimes that both versions were designed at the same time, without favoring one version or other. End result? TIP is faster in straight line but, manual(with optional LSD) is faster around Ring.
So, something for each of us I guess...

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Apr 14, 2006 2:36:04 PM

Hurst: Veteran; Loc: Potomac, MD; Posts: 1255, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2005; Reply to: Jay

Re: GT3 questions / comments

Quote:
Jay said:
GT3 questions.

Gear box:

I know 997GT3 has manual only. Why do the Carrera Cup cars have a "six speed sequential dog type"? What on earth is this? Is it a DSG / PDK and why doesn't the street GT3 have it?

This is a racing tranny. Very expensive. Here's how it works basically. It looks like one really long level (imagine some 19th century factury worker pulling at a rod comming from the rod) that will shift up basically instantaneously (its a racecar). In order to shift up, there is no requirement for a clutch. Think of it, when you're in 5th gear, if you match the revs rights just throw it into 6th near the limiter. It's just designed to take it.

However, for the driver to downshift, he/she must operate a clutch in the Cup thusly matching revs to downshift etc...

I had two friends who worked with LNS Motorsports racing 996s (Cups, Turbos, regs etc), have some pics if you'd be interested...

Quote:

P cite the torque of the 997 Turbo as a reason for no DSG / PDK yet. Surely for the GT3 this can not be the complete reason?

Any rumour on when we will have DSG/PDK in a GT3 or is it a marketing / waiting game again by P?

We can only guess really, but I think when they do come with PDK, it will be in their flagship models to push sales (I would expect it in a Turbo S or even in a GT2 to boost its slugish sales/trepidation of its perspective buyers).

Quote:

Traction:

I see 997GT3 has ABD, ASR and MSR. Why doesn't P introduce PSM on the standard GT3 (with a complete off switch)? Wouldn't that be sensible to use their best technology (i.e.PSM). (PSM and LSD can work together right?). [PSM has (ABS), ASR, ABD and MSR anyway]. Or have I got it wrong and it is PSM without the name?

I think a large draw of the GT3 is that fact that it is a drivers' car (maybe even a racecar drivers car). Drivers' cars don't intervene with the car, they comply (regardless of his or her errors). I personally was drawn to the GT3 (and thusly Porsche) because of the lack of intervention.

This is not to say that I'm Alonso (see how we no longer say "I'm no Schummy" step over Michael and Kimi

) or anything, but its more of a philosophy of motorsports, more than anything. It's why some people will forever buy a 6speed...

You can think of in terms of cluster contrasts. You have the TT on one side and the GT3 on the other. The TT is all about torque and brute power and traction. It's intelligent AWD system as synchronized with the VTG, PSM blah blah blah is a marvel of electrical engineering. Basically it lets a LOT of people go VERY FAST in a lot of conditions. I would liken it to a bludgening club that pretty much can be wielded by anyone (anyone who can work a Tip S box

) to a reasonable limit...

The GT3 is more of a specialized tool, like a surgeon's blade (albeit it looses some of its control as it gets up in weight, but that's another issue not for here). It doesn't have a lot of these tech gizmos that "guide" its hand because, well, people who buy the GT3 want to guide their own hands with the knife.

Quote:

Power:

Why wasn't there any power upgrade (apart from a minor torque change) between the last 996 Cup car and the 997 Cup car? Then, is the new GT3 a real upgrade (w.r.t. power)? (or a mere catch-up to the 2004 Cup cars?).

Hard to compare the Cup cars in terms of performance quite yet. Haven't really seen many results from the 997 Cups on the tracks. I bet they will do some damage though

In regards to the street GT3s, I think this one will clearly have more potential power (e.g. 7 seconds faster Nring) and have a wider base of users who can actualize
this potential.

Quote:

Info:

It's really hard to gather even the basic specs for new/old GT3's. The easiest way seems to be through the UK Car configurator. Another good site is GT3.com. If you go to the official P GT3 site you get sent of on an endless shockwave journey. Is it possible to sticky all basic specs (of each car) in each section?

Contact a dealer for more tangible resources of information. Porsche's website is more of a marketing game than a plethora of information. Sleuth around the forums, there are plenty of GT3 owners (Moogle comes to mind) who share lots of valueable information about their cars.

Quote:

GT3 section:

I know it's been asked before, but because of so much specific interest in GT3 (especially from new TT people like me), could we have a GT3 dedicated section.

I agree

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Apr 14, 2006 2:52:43 PM

intouch1: Rennteam Master; Loc: Red Sea , Egypt; Posts: 3643, Gallery; Registered on: May 22, 2004; Reply to: Hurst

Re: GT3 questions / comments

you are mistaken thinking that the gt3 does not have pdk due to torque. the gt3 has little torque....415 nm i believe.

porsche is just too stingy to accellerate pdk development. i am pretty sure we will get a vw variant of the dsg.

lets not forget that the first porsche was based on the beetle layout.....

back to the roots you could call this i guess.....

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Apr 14, 2006 2:57:01 PM

Hurst: Veteran; Loc: Potomac, MD; Posts: 1255, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2005; Reply to: intouch1

Re: GT3 questions / comments

intouch, his point was that Porsche cites the torque reason for the TT.
Jay astutely notes that this "excuse" is not valid for a low-torque GT3 as many of us could surmise from the most profitable auto company in the world

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Apr 14, 2006 7:43:14 PM

svtrader1: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 821, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2003; Reply to: fritz

Re: GT3 questions / comments

Quote:
fritz said:

As an engineer, I also believe that a manual gearbox should be dead in 2006.
But it refuses to do the decent thing by lying down and keeping quiet.

Well, it doesn't help your theory when Porsche won't release PDK till 2008. Inexcusable!!!

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Apr 15, 2006 1:16:28 PM

Jay: Pilot; Loc: NZ / OZ , Japan; Posts: 321, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 6, 2002; Reply to: Erik

Re: GT3 questions / comments

Thanks for the answers.

I found that MSR stands for Engine Drag Torque Management.

I'm a little confused as to why the Turbo can have LSD for manual, but not for tip, assuming (I could be wrong here too!) that the locking rates would be the same for both.

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Apr 18, 2006 9:24:44 AM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4129, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: GT3 questions / comments

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
fritz said:
the manual gearbox will continue to defy logic by finding buyers amongst those drivers who look upon a sports car as being a means of honing their own skills, and not for compensating for their lack of skills.

Quote of the year!!!

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Apr 18, 2006 8:29:19 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 7675, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Futch

Re: GT3 questions / comments

Quote:
Fanch said:
Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
fritz said:
the manual gearbox will continue to defy logic by finding buyers amongst those drivers who look upon a sports car as being a means of honing their own skills, and not for compensating for their lack of skills.

Quote of the year!!!

"Quote of the Year", eh?

Gee, thanks Fanch. Didn't even realize that rennteam was running a competition.

What's the prize?

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Apr 18, 2006 9:03:24 PM

Hurst: Veteran; Loc: Potomac, MD; Posts: 1255, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2005; Reply to: fritz

Re: GT3 questions / comments

a new Turbo

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Apr 18, 2006 9:28:57 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 7675, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Hurst

Re: GT3 questions / comments

Quote:
Hurst said:
a new Turbo

OK, I'll take it as long as it's a stick shift.

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