Crown

Want to open up a new topic for car discussion.

In the 997 generation, turbo S and GT3RS serve very different driving needs and people do not often cross shop between the two.  GT3RS is marketed as raw, excellent track performance, 6 speed manual, minimal comfort features meaning not as comfortable to drive daily.  Turbo S is the daily use super car, unbeatable acceleration, rear seats for kids, still good track performance but people nit pick on its turbo lag.

Fast forward to 991.  These two cars suddenly become very similar.  Both very easy to drive with PDK, comfortable to drive on both road and track, and offers very similar track times on review.  Turbo S has the edge of rear seats, and 4WD to some, while GT3RS will retain values better.

If I have to shop for one now for similar money (ignore price appreciation or depreciation down the road), just a car to enjoy for combine road and track use for the next few years, I have a feeling that I will buy the new turbo S over a GT3RS.

Please discuss.

Tim

2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe;  2016 911 GTS Club Coupe;  2015 Macan S
 

While the Turbo S and RS may post similar performance numbers on some metrics, the way in which the performance is achieved and the feelings behind the wheel are quite different.  One really has to drive both cars in the manner in which they will be used to make a good decision.

16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

While the cars remain comfortably different, I would agree that there are more people using GT cars on a daily basis than ever before. 

For me it would be a matter of type of use you are going to give it. Weekend car with ocasional other use were you don't need rear seats for, then its a no brainer for me, the RS. For higher mailage or everyday use (commuting, running errands, etc), trips, kids, cold weather, need to be more discrete, etc... Turbo. Just depends were you fall in terms of the two ends of the spectrum IMO.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Carlos from Spain:

For me it would be a matter of type of use you are going to give it. Weekend car with ocasional other use were you don't need rear seats for, then its a no brainer for me, the RS. For higher mailage or everyday use (commuting, running errands, etc), trips, kids, cold weather, need to be more discrete, etc... Turbo. Just depends were you fall in terms of the two ends of the spectrum IMO.

This was my exact thought when I bought my 997.2GT3RS in 2010.

Unfortunately, I have not had chance to drive any of the 991 versions on track yet, will do this summer. 

It just seems "on paper" that there are a lot of similarity between these two, and they are actually competing for the same group of customers.  I wonder how many people actually buy the RS now for its handling, or just for its wild look and money making ability, or just because it is called a GT3RS.

Car for car, for similar money, I think the new turbo S is a better buy, especially for those who will not buy a lot of cars.

If the future gen GT3RS has turbo engine, then the difference between the two will approach zero.

Tim

2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe;  2016 911 GTS Club Coupe;  2015 Macan S
 

Targa Tim:

If the future gen GT3RS has turbo engine, then the difference between the two will approach zero.

Maybe a reason to consider the current GT3 RS?  That motor has quite a bit of character (and it operates totally differently than the TTS, even if the end result is similar).

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16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Six months ago I was faced with a similiar dilemma. I approached 4 different delears in the region to order a RS but they all gave me no hope in getting one. My immediate 2nd choice would've been the Turbo S had I not received that last minute call confirming a slot for me in November production with 0 premium. To tell the truth had I gone the turbo route I don't think I would've been that disappointed. Both cars are awesome, and yes I agree, the gape between them has shrunk tremendously in the past few decades.

I had a 997 Turbo S and now a 991 GT3RS, sort of similar comparison.

Right now, I don't really missed the Turbo S, yes the power is intoxicating, the all weather capability is almost unmatched in a GT/Sports Car. The RS is down on power, down on torque, the engine needs to be winded up to go anywhere, and I am missing 2 seats, but I think I like the RS more. The exhaust sound is just so nice, that itself more than make up for the lack of power, it just begged to be revved. 

The two cars are getting closer '' ON PAPER '' . In driving feel they are very different . In the turbo s you feel  , unless you are on a Germany Autobahn , in the RS you feel   most of the time .

But, I agree the RS is getting closer to the Turbo in confort ...... and it should not get any closer otherwise it will loose too much of it's edge . It lost some already from the 997 to the 991 .

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Targa Tim:

Want to open up a new topic for car discussion.

In the 997 generation, turbo S and GT3RS serve very different driving needs and people do not often cross shop between the two.  GT3RS is marketed as raw, excellent track performance, 6 speed manual, minimal comfort features meaning not as comfortable to drive daily.  Turbo S is the daily use super car, unbeatable acceleration, rear seats for kids, still good track performance but people nit pick on its turbo lag.

Fast forward to 991.  These two cars suddenly become very similar.  Both very easy to drive with PDK, comfortable to drive on both road and track, and offers very similar track times on review.  Turbo S has the edge of rear seats, and 4WD to some, while GT3RS will retain values better.

If I have to shop for one now for similar money (ignore price appreciation or depreciation down the road), just a car to enjoy for combine road and track use for the next few years, I have a feeling that I will buy the new turbo S over a GT3RS.

Please discuss.

The Turbo S is the perfect road machine, insanely fast, forgiving and a perfect daily driver, even under rainy or snow road conditions. It may be faster than the GT3 RS on the track, especially in the hands of a less experienced driver but after a few rounds, the brake and especially the tires, will "give up". Other than that, the Turbo S gets boring after a while, especially if you keep it as a weekend toy and not as a daily driver.

The GT3 RS is the ultimate driving machine for those who don't want to compromise too much. It requires a more skilled driver to be very fast in it, it is a bit less forgiving than the Turbo S but also more capable on the track. This car can go round after round and you won't really notice much degradation in grip or brake performance. The sound of this car is invigorating and it doesn't get boring at all, especially if you use it as a weekend toy.

In my personal opinion, it is impossible to compare both because these are two cars for two completely different customer types. A track addict will never be happy with the Turbo S and a poser will never be happy with the GT3 RS.

I would love to own both though, a 991.2 Turbo S convertible as my daily driver and a 991 GT3 RS for weekend fun. This would actually make a lot of sense. 

My (current) Porsche dream garage: 991.2 Turbo S Convertible, 991 GT3 RS and Cayenne Turbo S. I would add the 918 too of course but I think this ship has sailed.  The three mentioned cars cover basically every ground of a true car addict, a prefect combo in my opinion, there isn't much left (well, I could add a GT4 Clubsport if I would want to race it a little bit...).

My (current) dream garage (any brand): Ferrari 458 Speciale A, 991 GT3 RS, McLaren 675 LT, Mercedes G63 AMG. I could add of course some more cars to it but if I had this garage, I wouldn't need anything anymore. ​

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

Targa Tim:

Want to open up a new topic for car discussion.

In the 997 generation, turbo S and GT3RS serve very different driving needs and people do not often cross shop between the two.  GT3RS is marketed as raw, excellent track performance, 6 speed manual, minimal comfort features meaning not as comfortable to drive daily.  Turbo S is the daily use super car, unbeatable acceleration, rear seats for kids, still good track performance but people nit pick on its turbo lag.

Fast forward to 991.  These two cars suddenly become very similar.  Both very easy to drive with PDK, comfortable to drive on both road and track, and offers very similar track times on review.  Turbo S has the edge of rear seats, and 4WD to some, while GT3RS will retain values better.

If I have to shop for one now for similar money (ignore price appreciation or depreciation down the road), just a car to enjoy for combine road and track use for the next few years, I have a feeling that I will buy the new turbo S over a GT3RS.

Please discuss.

The Turbo S is the perfect road machine, insanely fast, forgiving and a perfect daily driver, even under rainy or snow road conditions. It may be faster than the GT3 RS on the track, especially in the hands of a less experienced driver but after a few rounds, the brake and especially the tires, will "give up". Other than that, the Turbo S gets boring after a while, especially if you keep it as a weekend toy and not as a daily driver.

The GT3 RS is the ultimate driving machine for those who don't want to compromise too much. It requires a more skilled driver to be very fast in it, it is a bit less forgiving than the Turbo S but also more capable on the track. This car can go round after round and you won't really notice much degradation in grip or brake performance. The sound of this car is invigorating and it doesn't get boring at all, especially if you use it as a weekend toy.

In my personal opinion, it is impossible to compare both because these are two cars for two completely different customer types. A track addict will never be happy with the Turbo S and a poser will never be happy with the GT3 RS.

I would love to own both though, a 991.2 Turbo S convertible as my daily driver and a 991 GT3 RS for weekend fun. This would actually make a lot of sense. 

I did have two 911 turbos and right now a 911 GT3 RS. RC described it perfectly. The GT3RS is NOT a daily driver car. You will not be happy with that car as a DD. I think that 90% will be faster in a turbo and I think that 60% will find the turbo after 6 month boring.

AM

Exactly. I loved my Turbo S in the beginning but after only a year, I was bored as hell with the car. When I told people in a German forum that I got bored with the Turbo S and got myself a 991.1 GTS Cab instead, many suspected I couldn't handle the Turbo S and this is why I did it. Good joke.  It is difficult to understand, I agree but the Turbo S just wasn't me, I wanted a fun car and not a perfect daily driver, especially since I couldn't use the Turbo S to drive to work in it (my customers accept a black 911 Cab but not a Turbo S...this is a different level for them...).

As a weekend toy, the 991 Turbo S is just not fun enough. The sound is boring as hell and the car is almost too perfect. Great daily driver, as a daily driver I would have never given it away but as a weekend fun toy, the biggest mistake I ever made. Surprisingly, my 991.1 GTS Cab is my daily driver now (most of the time) and it is a fantastic car. I even enjoy it on weekends because it is so much fun to drive. Once the weather is sunny, there is nothing more enjoyable than this car.  The sound is just intoxicating. 

I would get a 991.2 Turbo S convertible though if I could choose again but these cars got so insanely expensive that it just isn't worth it. For this kind of money, I would rather prefer a Huracan Spyder as a weekend toy, honestly. As a daily driver, if I could pull it off (customers), the 991.2 Turbo S would be perfect.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Perfect analysis by RC!

olli:

Perfect analysis by RC!

Thanks.  Conclusions from an expensive experience I had...

I made two car mistakes in my life: Panamera Turbo S and 911 Turbo S. Two wonderful cars and fun in the first couple of months but then... Cost me a lot of money (even though less than one would expect) but if I hadn't made these mistakes, I could have easily gone for a 991 GT3 RS as a weekend toy. Bad luck I guess (or poor choice), whatever fits. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Live and learn...

...but honestly, as we discussed at the time, all it takes is a strategy that makes sense for you and then you stick to it once it has been set...your Porsche "dream garage" is a case in point:

A track toy (eg 991 GT3 RS), a fun DD (eg 991 GTS Cab or 991 Turbo Cab) and a utility DD (eg (Cayenne/Macan). Buy the track toy and lease one or both of the other two.

Be smart and plan ahead in terms of timing your replacements to make sure that you are ready to make any possible switch as new models come on stream to replace any one of the three within their "bucket".  

And don't get carried away on a whim by a spur of the moment kind of itch!

PS: and enjoy them while you have got them, without worrying too much about what else you could do or get!

olli:

Live and learn...

...but honestly, as we discussed at the time, all it takes is a strategy that makes sense for you and then you stick to it once it has been set...your Porsche "dream garage" is a case in point:

A track toy (eg 991 GT3 RS), a fun DD (eg 991 GTS Cab or 991 Turbo Cab) and a utility DD (eg (Cayenne/Macan). Buy the track toy and lease one or both of the other two.

Be smart and plan ahead in terms of timing your replacements to make sure that you are ready to make any possible switch as new models come on stream to replace any one of the three within their "bucket".  

And don't get carried away on a whim by a spur of the moment kind of itch!

Where were you when I needed you?  

Good points, especially that "moment kind of itch" thingie. 

Lesson learned!

No more weekend toy, unless it is an exotic or a track car.

No more daily driver, unless I can actually use it as a daily driver and it doesn't end up as a weekend toy because my customers cannot see me in it.

No more US cars, great performance/money value but always with a string attached (little issues or maintenance is too complicated since repair shop is too far away).

No more "compromised" family cars. If I need a family car, it will be a SUV and a very fast one.

Lesson learned. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Thanks all for the analysis, although I already know all of the above answers.

The new turbo S is just out, I don't think any of us have driven or own one yet.  I bet it is better than your previous turbo S version slightly in every way, and getting close to GT3RS in terms of handling.  The deficit in cornering speed, it can make up in the straight line.

The way I see it - the difference between the new Turbo S and GT3RS are sound, engine (turbo vs NA), suspension setup, 4 vs 2 seats, 4WD vs 2WD.

Engine there is nothing that we can change.  Turbo lag will still be there no matter how small they tune it.  Sound is subjective but it should not change the driving.  Suspension is actually very easy to mod, spend some money on the turbo S suspension and it will handle better than a GT3RS (I always thought GT2RS = turbo S + GT3RS suspension), 4WD can be deleted, 4 seats actually a bonus.  To just have one car, maybe a GT2RS is the answer.

I think I have close to a perfect garage now - track car is covered, two 911 for daily use, two SUV for utility and bad weather.  I don't want a 918 (but will take one if it is free ), I will be afraid to park it anywhere.  To make my collection perfect, I still need a convertible (easy to add, but no garage space) and a Ferrari (will wait 3-5 years, likely will just be an entry level one just to own a Ferrari). 

--

Tim

2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe;  2016 911 GTS Club Coupe;  2015 Macan S
 

RC:

As a daily driver, if I could pull it off (customers), the 991.2 Turbo S would be perfect.

delete the wing and badge, they can't tell.

Tim

2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe;  2016 911 GTS Club Coupe;  2015 Macan S
 

In a weird sort of way, I feel that there may be a niche again for a GT2 model.  Reasons?

- new 991.2 has legitimized turbo boost within the 911 lineup

- Turbo and Turbo S models have moved up into the boring perfection class, as per discussion above

- new GT2 could fill the "imperfect but full of character" turbo niche, if they can make an engine that is higher revving and produces the right sound, with GT3 handling aggressiveness.... 

Somewhat related, I notice very few 997 GT2s on the market at any time - owners seem to love these beasts...

2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S

4trac:

owners seem to love these beasts...

GT2 RS in particular

16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

even my old turbo is a good platform. Most of what you would need to build the perfect turbo is right there. 

4trac:

In a weird sort of way, I feel that there may be a niche again for a GT2 model.  Reasons?

- new 991.2 has legitimized turbo boost within the 911 lineup

- Turbo and Turbo S models have moved up into the boring perfection class, as per discussion above

- new GT2 could fill the "imperfect but full of character" turbo niche, if they can make an engine that is higher revving and produces the right sound, with GT3 handling aggressiveness.... 

Somewhat related, I notice very few 997 GT2s on the market at any time - owners seem to love these beasts...

If the 991.2 Turbo S would sound like the 991.2 Carrera S PSE I test-drove, I would probably consider getting one again. Unfortunately, every bit of information I have seems to indicate that the 991.2 Turbo S sound hasn't changed much.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Here is a lap time comparison from Laguna Seca, done by Randy Pobst, a very experienced Porsche race driver.

http://www.motortrend.com/news/comparing-laguna-laps-911-turbo-s-gt3-rs-kiinote/

Akrapovic package - does it sound good? always possible to install after-market exhaust and solve sound matter

artur777:

Akrapovic package - does it sound good? always possible to install after-market exhaust and solve sound matter

People need to be careful with turbo charged cars, especially with modern turbo charged cars. Any change in exhaust flow can have serious influences regarding performance/power and torque output.

Also, with new EU sound emissions regulations, aftermarket exhaust systems are not permitted to sound louder than the OEM systems.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Maybe Akrapovic will focus on the harmonics of the exhaust limiting the decibels in order to be compliant to the regulations . After market exhausts are not only about decibels but (imho) also about the sound they provide .

m4ever:

Maybe Akrapovic will focus on the harmonics of the exhaust limiting the decibels in order to be compliant to the regulations . After market exhausts are not only about decibels but (imho) also about the sound they provide .

True but it isn't any easy task. Akrapovic was rumored to be working on a sport exhaust system for the 991.1 Turbo S together with Porsche during development and apparently, it was impossible to get the necessary sound improvement without compromising other features. Now that they cannot be a bit louder, it won't be easy to change the sound that much. I am very curious on how third party sport exhaust manufacturers will deal with the new regulations and if they find another loop hole (flap operated exhaust was one...).

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

m4ever:

Maybe Akrapovic will focus on the harmonics of the exhaust limiting the decibels in order to be compliant to the regulations . After market exhausts are not only about decibels but (imho) also about the sound they provide .

True but it isn't any easy task. Akrapovic was rumored to be working on a sport exhaust system for the 991.1 Turbo S together with Porsche during development and apparently, it was impossible to get the necessary sound improvement without compromising other features. Now that they cannot be a bit louder, it won't be easy to change the sound that much. I am very curious on how third party sport exhaust manufacturers will deal with the new regulations and if they find another loop hole (flap operated exhaust was one...).

--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

 

Akrapovic has worked with Porsche for a 991 exhaust for the turbo. But it was declined by the management because it was to expensive. Not a technical only a financial decision. 

AM

Not true. Akrapovic couldn't meet the development criteria, it was impossible to get a decent sound without losing power and impossible to not lose power but get a decent sound. Major problem were the VTG chargers which didn't play well with the flap control of the exhaust (some sort of "on-off" issue, I am no engineer, so I didn't pay attention to details). Exhaust was made out of titanium and it would have been expensive but it would have been an optional item anyway, same as planned for all wheel steering, which made it (under pressure of the development team) to the final car. One reason the 991 Turbo/Turbo S became much more expensive. Unfortunately they didn't give the green light for that sexy turbo "blow off valve" sound, a bit too much for the Porsche CEOs. 

Akrapovic sells a similar exhaust as a third party part now...

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)