Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - raining on the sport chrono parade

Apr 8, 2006 6:09:27 PM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: SeattleGT3

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

Quote:
997CarreraS said:
Quote:
Dock (Atlanta) said:
Porsche...Masters at extracting money out of their customers.

The 997 Turbo with sports chrono...don't buy one without it. My question then is, why *offer* one without it??

I frankly dont understand why people whine about money on this forum....

I assure you, money isn't the issue.

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Apr 8, 2006 6:12:47 PM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: MKW

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

Quote:
MKW said:
But I still find it irritating that Porsche has to option a " sport " button on the 997/997 Turbo ( who cares about the price ) - it should come std since it's a SPORTS CAR .It's part of the deal when you buy something like an M5, etc. And for those who say choice is good - what they really acknowledge is that Porsche condescendingly deems many buyers the poseurs they are.

Amen.

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Apr 8, 2006 6:27:02 PM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

I personally think Porsche should design/engineer and market the Turbo as a SPORTS CAR! and not some fluff GT'ish car. It should come STANDARD with a hard-edged suspension and shifter, as powerful an engine as possible considering it's planned near term product line, a loud exhaust, a very sensitive steering rack, and no nav/rain sensing wipers/etc (GT stuff). If a buyer wants a softer riding/quieter/less powerful "GT" car, then Porsche should offer a large "delete" options list...delete sports car ride, delete sharp steering, delete sports car shifter, delete powerful engine, and delete loud exhaust.

Porsche should start with a great, powerful sports car (sports car in the truest sense of the word), and let buyers dumb it down to get what they want. As it is now, a buyer has to option out the car to try to make it a sports car.

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Apr 8, 2006 6:36:44 PM

john999s: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 537, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2005; Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

I see what you are saying. As an enthusiast I'd prefer it. But that should apply to all Porsche's surely? The problem is it will alienate the non-enthusiast market that gives them the numbers to give them the record profits. And it's a marketing nightmare because making a car less sporty is deeply uncool, isn't it?

Perhaps they have the balance a bit wrong but I think overall they do a job at covering all the bases-and making money.

Not many bought the car your describe last time-a GT2 so do customer's really want what you describe? Some do, people on this forum for sure, but the rest?

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Apr 8, 2006 6:56:40 PM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: john999s

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

Quote:
john999s said:
The problem is it will alienate the non-enthusiast market that gives them the numbers to give them the record profits.

Perhaps they have the balance a bit wrong but I think overall they do a job at covering all the bases-and making money.

Not many bought the car your describe last time-a GT2...

Porsche should worry less about the "GT car" crowd. A sharper focus at making the Turbo a more hard edged sports ccar would mean some buyers would have to "soften" the car up via the options list, but I believe in the end more enthusiasts would buy the car...a net gain for sales.

The GT2 is what the 997 Turbo should have targeted. The GT2 is no question "sports car", but it was priced too high...the standard "huge gouging" approach by Porsche.

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Apr 9, 2006 3:05:41 AM

Avantgarde: Senior; Loc: City State; Posts: 708, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2005; Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

Quote:
Dock (Atlanta) said:
Quote:
997CarreraS said:
Quote:
Dock (Atlanta) said:
Porsche...Masters at extracting money out of their customers.

The 997 Turbo with sports chrono...don't buy one without it. My question then is, why *offer* one without it??

I frankly dont understand why people whine about money on this forum....

I assure you, money isn't the issue.

Money/Cost may not be the issue to you (not me

)

but it sure is the cause of displeasure for other whiners.

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Apr 9, 2006 4:56:34 AM

SeattleGT3: Pilot; Loc: WA; Posts: 431, Gallery; Registered on: May 16, 2005; Reply to: Avantgarde

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

Porsche has done an amazing thing. They make a high volume production car that is completely customizable. No other vendor with this kind of volume does what they do. Your car is your car. Very unique. You can make it a track car or a GT. Your Call, whether you add options or delete them doesn't matter. What matters is you can do it. And that pretty cool. Track Car, GT Car, Carbon Fiber, Leather 122,900 car or 148,900 you get to decide.

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Apr 9, 2006 6:45:59 PM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: SeattleGT3

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

Quote:
997CarreraS said:
Porsche has done an amazing thing. They make a high volume production car that is completely customizable.

Can you delete the Nav? Can you order the Turbo without PASM? How about a non-variable ratio steering rack, can you order a Turbo with one of those?

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Apr 9, 2006 6:59:11 PM

SeattleGT3: Pilot; Loc: WA; Posts: 431, Gallery; Registered on: May 16, 2005; Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

Quote:
Dock (Atlanta) said:
Quote:
997CarreraS said:
Porsche has done an amazing thing. They make a high volume production car that is completely customizable.

Can you delete the Nav? Can you order the Turbo without PASM? How about a non-variable ratio steering rack, can you order a Turbo with one of those?

I get your point but it is still amazing

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Apr 9, 2006 8:39:50 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 7673, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

Quote:
Dock (Atlanta) said:
Can you order the Turbo without PASM? How about a non-variable ratio steering rack, can you order a Turbo with one of those?

Would you even know the car has a variable-ratio steering rack if you had not been told?

If not, why does it matter?

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Apr 9, 2006 8:52:22 PM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: fritz

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
Dock (Atlanta) said:
Can you order the Turbo without PASM? How about a non-variable ratio steering rack, can you order a Turbo with one of those?

Would you even know the car has a variable-ratio steering rack if you had not been told?

If not, why does it matter?

Have you driven a 997? The on-center steering feel is not as sharp as a 996.

The steering in a Porsche sports car should be razor sharp. The "dumbed down" soft on-center steering response Porsche now has in their cars is there to placate the GT crowd.

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Apr 9, 2006 9:16:05 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

Quote:
Dock (Atlanta) said:
Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
Dock (Atlanta) said:
Can you order the Turbo without PASM? How about a non-variable ratio steering rack, can you order a Turbo with one of those?

Would you even know the car has a variable-ratio steering rack if you had not been told?

If not, why does it matter?

Have you driven a 997? The on-center steering feel is not as sharp as a 996.

The steering in a Porsche sports car should be razor sharp. The "dumbed down" soft on-center steering response Porsche now has in their cars is there to placate the GT crowd.

I know I won't be doing it, but perhaps someone with way too much money would prefer to istall an old, 996-type steering rack. I felt much more comfortable with the old 996-type rack.

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Apr 9, 2006 9:34:23 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 7673, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

Quote:
Dock (Atlanta) said:
Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
Dock (Atlanta) said:
Can you order the Turbo without PASM? How about a non-variable ratio steering rack, can you order a Turbo with one of those?

Would you even know the car has a variable-ratio steering rack if you had not been told?

If not, why does it matter?

Have you driven a 997? The on-center steering feel is not as sharp as a 996.

The steering in a Porsche sports car should be razor sharp. The "dumbed down" soft on-center steering response Porsche now has in their cars is there to placate the GT crowd.

I drive a 997S every day, and drove a 996 for several years before it, so I know what you mean about the on-center feel.

But, the steering ratio of the "old" and "new" steering racks is almost identical around the center-point (16.9 to 1 as as against 17.1 to 1, less than 2% difference), so any lack of sharpness you detect is not necessarily down to the variable-ratio rack.

Your previous posts suggest to me that you already know that there are other factors in a car's steering and suspension geometry which affect the center-point feel, and not just the steering rack ratio.

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Apr 9, 2006 9:50:59 PM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: fritz

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

Quote:
fritz said:
But, the steering ratio of the "old" and "new" steering racks is almost identical around the center-point (16.9 to 1 as as against 17.1 to 1, less than 2% difference)...Your previous posts suggest to me that you already know that there are other factors in a car's steering and suspension geometry which affect the center-point feel, and not just the steering rack ratio.

The 2% is in the wrong direction, and supports my point that Porsche is "softening" up the car...slowly but surely, with small steps sometimes. The change in ratio should have been to 16.7.

And of course there are other factors affecting steering feel/response. That's why I asked about being able to delete PASM on the 997 Turbo (but it can't be deleted).

I have X73 on my 996 Turbo, and even though the handling and steering response is still short of the sharpness I would like, it's what I think the 996 Turbo should have come with from the factory as the OEM suspension. That's the direction Porsche should be moving the Turbo towards.

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Apr 9, 2006 10:06:44 PM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

hilarious post, i agree with some points. the 'press this button for a temporary powerup' is straight out of a damn videogame and is a gimmick.

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Apr 9, 2006 10:43:18 PM

john999s: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 537, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2005; Reply to: Moogle

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

But I agree on the steering whatever the cause. It was a backward move. Not only the 2% but I suspect wider front tyres don't help and more 'sneeze' factor built into the bushes?

It was the first thing I said to the dealer when I drove the first demo 997s and even though I bought one I haven't changed my mind.

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Apr 9, 2006 10:53:24 PM

rhino: Expert; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 1951, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: john999s

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

I remember driving a 965 turbo back in the days and that had an awesome steering feel!!!

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Apr 9, 2006 11:03:45 PM

ARMD009: Co-Pilot; Loc: FL, united states; Posts: 274, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 12, 2005; Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

Dock you said " I have X73 on my 996 Turbo" how?
or you changed the springs yourself? I have the h&r set up on my car, very happy with it. I have read many of your posts and would like your opinion on the ecu upgade/flash 30-40 hp, what to you think. my car comes off warr in oct06'
and the money the dealer wants plus my car to get a 997 turbo 6 speed (yikes). I really think I'm better off for now keeping my car as is or maybe getting the ecu flash and the short shifter?

thanks

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Apr 10, 2006 2:22:14 AM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: ARMD009

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

Quote:
ARMD009 said:
Dock you said " I have X73 on my 996 Turbo" how?

I ordered the X73 from Gert at Carnewal and my dealer installed it. It's a great suspension.

Quote:
ARMD009 said:
...would like your opinion on the ecu upgade/flash 30-40 hp, what to you think.

I'd highly recommend the B&M shifter...install it yourself. I'd also recommend an aftermarket exhaust and ECU flash - they are both well worth the money. If you use any of the reputable tuner's software with an exhaust, you'll get 60-80 additional horsepower with a Stage 1 upgrade.

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Apr 10, 2006 6:48:04 AM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: SF Bay, CA , United States; Posts: 2408, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

Quote:
Dock (Atlanta) said:
Have you driven a 997? The on-center steering feel is not as sharp as a 996.

I have and I find no fault with the 997's steering. You drive a Turbo (4wd) and that gives you a different steering feel from the standard C2. I know, as I drive a C4. Could that be the difference you noted? that is the slightly heavier/firmer Turbo/C4 steering vs the C2's?

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Apr 10, 2006 8:27:43 AM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: ADias

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

Quote:
ADias said:
Quote:
Dock (Atlanta) said:
Have you driven a 997? The on-center steering feel is not as sharp as a 996.

I have and I find no fault with the 997's steering. You drive a Turbo (4wd) and that gives you a different steering feel from the standard C2. I know, as I drive a C4. Could that be the difference you noted? that is the slightly heavier/firmer Turbo/C4 steering vs the C2's?

That might be it. I compared a 997S to the 996TT and C4S, so Dock might be doing the same.

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Apr 10, 2006 12:35:15 PM

john999s: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 537, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2005; Reply to: Crash

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

I had a 996 C2 on Michelins and then a 997S on the new Michelins. I test drove the 997 back to back with my 996. I bought the 997S in spite of the steering being 'dumbed down' becuase the rest of the car is so good.The steering on the 997S has feedback, no question, but it does not have the same level of tactile feel that the 996 had. Make no mistake the 997 is good but there's another filter in place IMHO.

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Apr 10, 2006 1:08:16 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 22658, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: john999s

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

Quote:
john999s said:
I had a 996 C2 on Michelins and then a 997S on the new Michelins. I test drove the 997 back to back with my 996. I bought the 997S in spite of the steering being 'dumbed down' becuase the rest of the car is so good.The steering on the 997S has feedback, no question, but it does not have the same level of tactile feel that the 996 had. Make no mistake the 997 is good but there's another filter in place IMHO.

The steering dumbed down? Are you sure?

The new 997 steering is razor sharp, you just need to reach the necessary speed to experience it. The only thing which I never liked is the "dumbed down" feel when driving straight, it feels to light and without a real grip feel. But as soon as you turn the wheels, it becomes razor sharp and very direct, too direct for many drivers at extreme speeds.

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Apr 10, 2006 1:20:31 PM

john999s: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 537, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2005; Reply to: RC

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

When you have some lock on, yes it's full of feel in particular when you really commit the car to a corner.

On centre and just off centre it is too light and you have to hold it very lightly to get real feedback compared to 996 IMO.

I understand the reason I think. For many drivers too much directness especially at autobahn speeds means that they tend to overcorrect if they swerve or have a' moment'. But for experienced drivers I think its a step backwards. Even so for an assisted set-up it's still one of the best.

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Apr 10, 2006 1:21:37 PM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: ADias

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

Quote:
ADias said:You drive a Turbo (4wd) and that gives you a different steering feel from the standard C2. I know, as I drive a C4. Could that be the difference you noted? that is the slightly heavier/firmer Turbo/C4 steering vs the C2's?

I'm comparing the 996 C2 steering to the 997 and 997S steering.

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Apr 10, 2006 1:27:36 PM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: john999s

Re: raining on the sport chrono parade

Quote:
john999s said:

On centre and just off centre it is too light and you have to hold it very lightly to get real feedback compared to 996 IMO.

I understand the reason I think. For many drivers too much directness especially at autobahn speeds means that they tend to overcorrect if they swerve or have a' moment'. But for experienced drivers I think its a step backwards. Even so for an assisted set-up it's still one of the best.

Yes.

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