Crown

The Hellcat is very impressive !!!  If I would live in the US , I would get that car !

It also shows that HP is does it for top speed .

 964 Carrera 4 /  997.2 C2 ,  -20mm /  991 GT3 RS 

Time will soon tell how good/fast the 991.2 TTs is.....I am starting to be temped to upgrade....

2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2014 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab 2014 BMW i3 2017 Porsche Mission E on order

Gnil:

The Hellcat is very impressive !!!  If I would live in the US , I would get that car !

It also shows that HP is does it for top speed .

If it could solve its under 100mph traction issues during hard acceleration it would be even quicker.  But it's  still kind of a boat, it's the same length as a S class Benz and pretty heavy.

So, way back when, Kreso posted these torque/HP charts for the 991.1 Turbo/S. Would be interesting to see if these curves are the same with just different maximums, or if they have changed. Would also be interesting to see these for the rest of the 991.2 lineup.

Sound of the new Turbo! Is it me or the test driver is going be in trouble? The guy is flashing a prototype for the camera guy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbELO-_Ijfw

Herbaliser:

The people who believe that Porsche can cut 4 seconds from the 100-200 time of the 991.1 Turbo S by just adding 20hp must have a lot of hope. The 488 is a proven 25.x car.

This is because you don't understand the limitations of the 991.1 Turbo S.  Or better said: You don't know them (I do...through some very fortunate circumstances). Biggest limitations were quantity of injected fuel and thermodynamics. Both have been improved to a (technically) possible maximum. 

Just imagine this (caution: hypothetical numbers for understanding purposes only!): The 991.1 Turbo S produces 500 hp at 300 kph. Now what happens if the 991.2 Turbo S produces the full 580 hp at 300 kph? You get my point?

This is not about maximum power but about when (rev figure, speed) this power (and torque) is available.

Let's take the 488 for example: Let's say (hypothetically) that at 200 kph, the engine produces the full 1.4 bar boost pressure but at 300 kph, only 1.0 bar to avoid a heat soak and/or other issues?

Not sure if I make myself clear but power isn't always everything. 

Also, with the PAA (active aerodynamics), Porsche has a huge advantage at higher speeds because the PAA adapts to the necessary "task" (in auto mode). At 300 kph and higher, PAA adapts to the ideal setting for a maximum speed/down force ratio. Too much down force would actually reduce the top speed and/or make the car slower in the higher speed range.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Paulo_Rangel_Melo:

Sound of the new Turbo! Is it me or the test driver is going be in trouble? The guy is flashing a prototype for the camera guy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbELO-_Ijfw

Not anymore. The 991.2 Turbo/Turbo S is official, no issues with showing off the car.  I am still surprised they didn't take off the camouflage yet, there probably wasn't time for it (Porsche has a special department in Weissach which only deals with camouflage and such). 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

Just imagine this (caution: hypothetical numbers for understanding purposes only!): The 991.1 Turbo S produces 500 hp at 300 kph. Now what happens if the 991.2 Turbo S produces the full 580 hp at 300 kph? You get my point?

What happens is that while the Turbo S is making 580hp the 488 is making 670hp. And the McLaren 650S is making 650hp. That's why they are faster from 100 to 300. 

And the speculation that the 991.1 Turbo S is not making full 560hp at high speeds is ridiculous. If it's true, I will sue them immediately. Plus it's 0-300 time of 29.x - 30 sec matches perfectly a 560hp turbo car. 

If you believe that a car's acceleration time can be calculated "perfectly" just from its engine's peak power output on the test bench without any regard for vehicle weight, gear ratios, or for mechanical or aerodynamic drag (both of which vary throughout the relevant road speed range,  but in different relationships) then you have not looked into the physics involved..
What you have is just a "rule of thumb" based on observations of similar vehicles, but which can also be wrong as soon as some of the parameters start moving away from those of the vehicles on which those observations were based. 

fritz

Herbaliser:

RC:

Just imagine this (caution: hypothetical numbers for understanding purposes only!): The 991.1 Turbo S produces 500 hp at 300 kph. Now what happens if the 991.2 Turbo S produces the full 580 hp at 300 kph? You get my point?

What happens is that while the Turbo S is making 580hp the 488 is making 670hp. And the McLaren 650S is making 650hp. That's why they are faster from 100 to 300. 

And the speculation that the 991.1 Turbo S is not making full 560hp at high speeds is ridiculous. If it's true, I will sue them immediately. Plus it's 0-300 time of 29.x - 30 sec matches perfectly a 560hp turbo car. 

So just tell me: Why did my 991 Turbo S have 0.8-0.9 bar boost pressure at certain rev/speed figures and not the full 1.2 bar (display)? At Vmax, I never saw more than 1.0 bar for example. Any clue? 

Also, like fritz pointed out, there are lots of more factors to count in which are way too complicated to go into them.

The major limitations of the pre-facelift model were amount of fuel you could inject and thermodynamics. The pre-facelift model is over 2 years old, so it is safe to assume that in two years, Porsche was successful in making some improvements, incl. PAA, PDK and other systems. You don't give Porsche much credit because you never saw how they develop this stuff and how serious they take it. Porsche is not a small manufacturer (anymore) and paying attention to details is actually quite impressing and fascinating. This is something usually only small manufacturers do...or not.

Of course I cannot exclude that the 488 is faster from 100 to 300, simply because it is faster from 0-200 but AMS tested the 488 at 25.7 seconds (I think) from 0-300 kph and the 991.2 Turbo S is pretty close to that figure. Don't forget that from 0-160 kph, the Turbo S will destroy the 488, so this is maybe the speed range where the 488 loses terrain.

I never said the 991.2 Turbo S is faster than the 488 from 0-300 kph but neither is the 488, unless you count in maybe a few milliseconds or even a second. Still pretty impressive for a 580 hp car with AWD and more weight than the 488.  Even the LaFerrari cannot beat the 991.2 Turbo S from 0-120 kph, so relax... 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Why don't we make a bet and put some money on the table? You have the advantage of having P sources and I am just gessing and not knowing much? I say 0-300 28.X+ you say 25.x?

Herbaliser:

Why don't we make a bet and put some money on the table? You have the advantage of having P sources and I am just gessing and not knowing much? I say 0-300 28.X+ you say 25.x?

28.x would be impossible (just helping you here... ) because the old one already did 0-300 kph in 29.7 seconds. Now taking in consideration that the new one is 0.2 seconds faster from 0-100 kph and 0.4 seconds faster from 0-200 kph, just do the math. Please be aware that we are talking 0-300 kph times here, not 60-300 or whatever.

Ferrari is a good car manufacturer but look at how much the 488 costs (not really expensive in comparison to the direct competitors, in Germany the car costs basically the same as the new 991.2 Turbo S, so...  The tech Ferrari uses needs to be profitable and Ferrari isn't far behind Porsche when it comes to profitability. 

Ferrari knows that customers are looking at 0-100 kph, 0-200 kph performance and Vmax. The 0-300 kph performance isn't really important for many.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

So, a 1000 EUR?

Herbaliser:

So, a 1000 EUR?

I don't do bets for money, it is a principle. I also do not gamble (although I'm at least every two years in Las Vegas).

If you want to brag about it, just make a big fuss about it when you win here on Rennteam ("I was right, RC was wrong...") if this is important to you.   

Btw: 0-300 kph times, like 0-200 kph times, are not always measured the same way. There is a review (Italian magazine?) where the 991.2 Turbo S hit 0-300 kph in 31.x seconds. So which one would be valid, test XYZ or test ZXY?  The fact that the 650S Spider did 0-300 kph in 23.5 seconds should also tell you something about the 488 performance.  The McLaren has 20 horses less than the 488.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Fair enough :) And this is where I leave this argument until both cars are in my hands.

Not that I care, but I'll believe it when I see it. 911 is super heavy and not that much power or tq. I'm guessing 27-28s.

I love this forum but placing bets on some numbers, really? How old are we, 12? 

spudgun:

I love this forum but placing bets on some numbers, really? How old are we, 12? 

x2 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

RC:

Herbaliser:

So, a 1000 EUR?

I don't do bets for money, it is a principle. I also do not gamble (although I'm at least every two years in Las Vegas).

If you want to brag about it, just make a big fuss about it when you win here on Rennteam ("I was right, RC was wrong...") if this is important to you.   

Btw: 0-300 kph times, like 0-200 kph times, are not always measured the same way. There is a review (Italian magazine?) where the 991.2 Turbo S hit 0-300 kph in 31.x seconds. So which one would be valid, test XYZ or test ZXY?  The fact that the 650S Spider did 0-300 kph in 23.5 seconds should also tell you something about the 488 performance.  The McLaren has 20 horses less than the 488.

--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

 

Dear Christian, 

what is 0-300 time for Huracan 610hp? 

My money is on RC! 

2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2014 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab 2014 BMW i3 2017 Porsche Mission E on order

artur777:

RC:

Herbaliser:

So, a 1000 EUR?

I don't do bets for money, it is a principle. I also do not gamble (although I'm at least every two years in Las Vegas).

If you want to brag about it, just make a big fuss about it when you win here on Rennteam ("I was right, RC was wrong...") if this is important to you.   

Btw: 0-300 kph times, like 0-200 kph times, are not always measured the same way. There is a review (Italian magazine?) where the 991.2 Turbo S hit 0-300 kph in 31.x seconds. So which one would be valid, test XYZ or test ZXY?  The fact that the 650S Spider did 0-300 kph in 23.5 seconds should also tell you something about the 488 performance.  The McLaren has 20 horses less than the 488.

--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

 

Dear Christian, 

what is 0-300 time for Huracan 610hp? 

Basically same as 991.1 Turbo S...29.6 seconds.  (29.7 seconds for the 991.1 Turbo S).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

EnglishManInNY:

My money is on RC! 

Thank you  but you give me way too much credit. I have to rely on the information I get, so if that information is wrong, I'm in trouble.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

spudgun:

I love this forum but placing bets on some numbers, really? How old are we, 12? 

Don't worry, I bet my car against another guy's car on a German car forum.  I claimed that the new facelifted Carrera has basically the same tail lights as the old one, just a little bit Macan style and with a twist. Also that the headlights will basically stay the same. He claimed that he saw a mule without camouflage (only place where he could see it would be Weissach ) and that the tail lights were similar to the 997.2 facelift tail lights and much bigger. Since I already saw the final car (facelift), it was an easy bet but he refused.  

With that 0-300 kph time, it is more complicated. Since I didn't personally test the 991.2 Turbo S from 0-300 kph, I have to rely on the information I get from our various sources. One source was very enthusiastic about the new performance achievements of the 991.2 Turbo S facelift and I know this guy, he is usually not easily excitable. I also know the limitations of the "old" pre-facelift model and apparently, Porsche addressed exactly these points to improve performance. Now even if the new 991.2 Turbo S achieves 0-300 kph in 27.x seconds, it would still be impressive (Huracan...0-300 kph...same as 991.1 Turbo S according to Autobild Sportscars).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Gnil:

The Hellcat is very impressive !!!  If I would live in the US , I would get that car !

It also shows that HP is does it for top speed .

A little hint: Never do a 100 to 300 kph run against my GT500.  The Hellcat is slightly slower.  (fell back around two car lengths up to 290 kph or so...). My car also basically shows no heat soak at higher temperatures since I had a giant heat exchanger installed with two large ventilators. Even at very high temperatures, the engine stays cool and the oil temperature never passes the yellow field, which is quite impressive for such a car on the German Autobahn (did a 20 km run vs. a RS6 at around 35°C).

However, performance times don't tell the whole story. On the track, you would destroy me with my GT500 in your GT3 RS and I really got used to the GT500 and think I can be pretty fast in it. Still...this car is not made for curves, even if it is better than expected (only when the tires get temperature though, traction is everything with this car). Thanks god I switched to the Pirelli PZero tires, the Goodyear semi-slicks were basically unusable under 20°C. ​

So while the Hellcat may deliver impressive times on paper, this is not a car you would want on the track. The Challenger Hellcat is over 200(!) kg heavier than my GT500 and the Mustang isn't really the lightest either (1800 kg).

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Carlos from Spain:

spudgun:

I love this forum but placing bets on some numbers, really? How old are we, 12? 

x2 

12 x 2 = 24 

AM

As a little side note: The first 991.2 Turbo S customer/dealer cars have already arrived at Porsche dealers in Germany. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

The test I posted earlier "Quattroruote 0 - 300 km/h" turned out to be a lie (photoshop)

BiTurbo:

The test I posted earlier "Quattroruote 0 - 300 km/h" turned out to be a lie (photoshop)

Makes sense. Just now I actually realized that the Hellcat performance figure from 0-300 kph is 22.9 s but I actually read 32.9 seconds. My GT500 is slightly faster than the Challenger Hellcat up to 300 kph but I clocked it slightly under 30 seconds (give or take), so 22.9 seconds for the Challenger was impossible anyway.

Also should have realized that the 488 0-300 kph time cannot be worse than the 991.1 Turbo S, especially since AMS already clocked the new 488 at 26.7 seconds. 

I should be paying better attention, don't worry...you're not the only one who got fooled.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Btw 0 - 300 for the Hellcat in ABSports Supertest was 38s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr0wH3o6yZM

BiTurbo:

Btw 0 - 300 for the Hellcat in ABSports Supertest was 38s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr0wH3o6yZM

Makes much more sense...  Auto or manual? The auto is faster, should do the 0-300 kph in under 35 seconds

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)