Crown

From 13 Cool Facts About the 2017 Porsche 911 on Motor Trend

5. The new 911 Only Has Apple Car Play Because Google Is Nicht Gut

So much for "Do No Evil." There's no technological reason the 991/2 doesn't have Android Auto playing through its massively upgraded PCM system. But there is an ethical one. As part of the agreement an automaker would have to enter with Google, certain pieces of data must be collected and mailed back to Mountain View, California. Stuff like vehicle speed, throttle position, coolant and oil temp, engine revs—basically Google wants a complete OBD2 dump whenever someone activates Android Auto. Not kosher, says Porsche. Obviously, this is "off the record," but Porsche feels info like that is the secret sauce that makes its cars special. Moreover, giving such data to a multi-billion dollar corporation that's actively building a car, well, that ain't good, either. Apple, by way of stark contrast, only wants to know if the car is moving while Apple Play is in use. Makes you wonder about all the other OEMs who have agreed to Google's requests/demands, no?

Kudos to Porsche for taking a stand in support of privacy, even if they may have an ulterior motive -- i.e., they don't want Google to gather all that basic data on how their cars operate.

Although it at least appears that if you don't activate Android Auto, Google won't get this data from your car (from manufacturers who are including both), Google has a history of "inadvertently" collecting data they aren't supposed to collect. So, not including it at all is the right choice, because while some might want the choice to use it, others might not want the choice to not be spied on and tracked in the physical world "inadvertently" taken away from them by a company that has proven it can't be trusted on privacy issues.

Porsche obviously, and rightly, views Android Auto as the Trojan Horse that it is.

I am not surprised but another reason may also be the fact that a majority of Porsche owners are actually using an iPhone. Well, I'd say that 95% of the Porsche owners I know have an iPhone or a simple old school phone, so why bother with Android Auto? 

So while I admit that Porsche could have noble motives for not using Android Auto, I'm not really sure about this. This may have been just another business decision to not offer something many Porsche owners aren't using. Just a wild guess though, I like to believe that Porsche went the higher road here. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

An extract from today's Daily Telegraph business blog which is indirectly related to this thread's topic:

"Good afternoon. Some of the world's biggest technology companies were dealt a blow by the European Court of Justice this morning after it ruled that a crucial data sharing deal was invalid.

Companies such as Facebook had relied on the "Safe Harbour" agreement which allowed them to send private data about users back to the United States without breaching European data protection laws.

But the ECJ said the deal struck in 2000 between the United States and the EU was "invalid" and did not sufficiently guarantee the protection of Europeans' personal data and must be struck out.

The case stemmed from a complaint by an Austrian law student and privacy campaigner, Max Schrems, who sued the Irish data protection commissioner, arguing that it had failed to protect him from the prying of US intelligence agencies and urging the suspension of data transfers.

Facebook responded to the ruling by urging the EU and US to find a quick solution. "It is imperative that EU and US governments ensure that they continue to provide reliable methods for lawful data transfers and resolve any issues relating to national security," a Facebook spokeswoman said in an emailed statement to AFP."

fritz

RC:

I am not surprised but another reason may also be the fact that a majority of Porsche owners are actually using an iPhone. Well, I'd say that 95% of the Porsche owners I know have an iPhone or a simple old school phone, so why bother with Android Auto? 

So while I admit that Porsche could have noble motives for not using Android Auto, I'm not really sure about this. This may have been just another business decision to not offer something many Porsche owners aren't using. Just a wild guess though, I like to believe that Porsche went the higher road here. 

That occurred to me as well, although I don't think the cost of including Android Auto would have been significant, and I'm going to guess that Google would be happy to provide engineers and code to integrate it. And it may well have been a business decision in that Porsche felt it gave up too much information about how exactly their cars work, something they didn't want to share with the world. So maybe it's a case of, by protecting their own privacy, they end up doing the best thing for their customers.

fritz:

An extract from today's Daily Telegraph business blog which is indirectly related to this thread's topic:

"Good afternoon. Some of the world's biggest technology companies were dealt a blow by the European Court of Justice this morning after it ruled that a crucial data sharing deal was invalid.

Companies such as Facebook had relied on the "Safe Harbour" agreement which allowed them to send private data about users back to the United States without breaching European data protection laws.

But the ECJ said the deal struck in 2000 between the United States and the EU was "invalid" and did not sufficiently guarantee the protection of Europeans' personal data and must be struck out.

The case stemmed from a complaint by an Austrian law student and privacy campaigner, Max Schrems, who sued the Irish data protection commissioner, arguing that it had failed to protect him from the prying of US intelligence agencies and urging the suspension of data transfers.

Facebook responded to the ruling by urging the EU and US to find a quick solution. "It is imperative that EU and US governments ensure that they continue to provide reliable methods for lawful data transfers and resolve any issues relating to national security," a Facebook spokeswoman said in an emailed statement to AFP."

I wish we could get some privacy love from our government over here. But, that does put an interesting twist on the Android Auto terms of service: Is it even legal (and legally binding) in the EU?

So basically Porsche just relegated Android to Blackberry and Windows phone and nixed advanced interaction with the smartphone. If I was an Android user I would drop Android just for that reason. Kudos to Apple to try to do the right thing privacy wise and more reasons to never use anything Google related if possible. This comforts my opinion that Android users are fools and that there is no free lunch.

SciFrog:

So basically Porsche just relegated Android to Blackberry and Windows phone and nixed advanced interaction with the smartphone. If I was an Android user I would drop Android just for that reason. Kudos to Apple to try to do the right thing privacy wise and more reasons to never use anything Google related if possible. This comforts my opinion that Android users are fools and that there is no free lunch.

Haha, even the most hardcore Google/Android fans in my office have started to look at Apple gear now 

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

Doubt it. Most likely just a business decision at this point or it's not ready yet. Anyone can get access to that data by just plugging into the port and reading it. If they want 911/Porsche data so bad, they'd just go buy a fleet and give them to people.

Here's Google's response:

Steering this story straight - we take privacy very seriously and do not collect the data the Motor Trend article claims such as throttle position, oil temp and coolant temp. Users opt in to share information with Android Auto that improves their experience, so the system can be hands-free when in Drive, and provide more accurate navigation through the car’s GPS.

SciFrog:

So basically Porsche just relegated Android to Blackberry and Windows phone and nixed advanced interaction with the smartphone. If I was an Android user I would drop Android just for that reason. Kudos to Apple to try to do the right thing privacy wise and more reasons to never use anything Google related if possible. This comforts my opinion that Android users are fools and that there is no free lunch.

I'd argue 911 buyers are the bigger fools these days, regardless of their phone. Speaking of free lunches, it's cheaper to drive a Ferrari than it is a new 911.

Apparently Google has issued a (non-denial) denial of the Motor Trend claim, article at TechCrunch

Google’s official statement:

Steering this story straight – we take privacy very seriously and do not collect the data the Motor Trend article claims such as throttle position, oil temp and coolant temp. Users opt in to share information with Android Auto that improves their experience, so the system can be hands-free when in Drive, and provide more accurate navigation through the car’s GPS.

That falls far short of denying that they are getting all sorts of other information. All they are denying is that they are getting, "throttle position, oil temp and coolant temp." The rest of the article is pretty fuzzy, apparently Google didn't want to go on record with a full denial, but, "Users opt in to share information with Android Auto that improves their experience," sounds like the MT report was correct in the broad strokes, even if a few details were off, and they do collect large amounts of other data, probably including location.

Then, there is this part of the article [emphasis mine],

TechCrunch learned that when Google initially approached automakers concerning Android Auto, it requested a deeper data set than what is currently required.

That's unattributed, but since they claim they were speaking with Google earlier, I think we we can assume they "learned" it from Google. (Who else would they learn it from?) Since there is no timeframe indicated for this change, a reasonable translation is probably, "We just changed what we demand to not include throttle position, oil temp and coolant temp."

Why does it matter if they collect your location data? 99% of people have location services on their phone activated anyway, so what difference does it make whether you're walking or driving?

Requesting deeper data set than what is currently required isn't a big deal. Maybe they want to have data available in the event they want to do something later. Maybe they have some projects in their infancy or research they want to do that could make use of the data at some point for something that might happen later on or might never come to fruition at all.

Automakers can either agree or disagree. Maybe they're paranoid or maybe they aren't. Google can just go buy just about any automotive manufacturer if they really wanted. They have more cash on hand that most companies are worth. Big tech companies have more free cash flow than some manufacturers are even worth.

bluelines:

SciFrog:

So basically Porsche just relegated Android to Blackberry and Windows phone and nixed advanced interaction with the smartphone. If I was an Android user I would drop Android just for that reason. Kudos to Apple to try to do the right thing privacy wise and more reasons to never use anything Google related if possible. This comforts my opinion that Android users are fools and that there is no free lunch.

Haha, even the most hardcore Google/Android fans in my office have started to look at Apple gear now 

I just hope that Apple can keep up their resistance. I heard that Apple and Tim Cook are under a lot of pressure from politicians but also government agencies to lower their encryption/data protection standards. iMessage is just one example and yes, it is very safe (a friend of mine basically has fun trying to follow data streams from apps and see what they do and how they "act") and this has been confirmed by many independent sources. Same goes to TouchID. Many think that the fingerprint image is sent to Apple servers but this isn't the case. iCloud is a bit of a different story, there are various possibilities of an "attack", especially by Apple employees or government agencies aided by employees.

However, this is very unlikely because Apple uses so called HSMs (hardware security modules) which store the keys and the Admin access cards to these modules are immediately destroyed, so even if the NSA wants to get to your data, this is impossible. It could only be possible if the NSA has you on their "radar" and they inform Apple before you start iCloud. Then, theoretically, they could use the HSM admin access cards to get to your keychain.

If the HSMs detects various unauthorized attempts, the keys are destroyed. No recovery possible.

There are of course possibilities to modify the verification process and get access to data but only if government agencies would be aided by Apple employees with local access.

The safest way to protect your keychain is actually to use the randomly created security code (there is an option when you enable keychain security). This code is using so much entropy, it is very safe and basically impossible to break. This particular code is never sent to Apple, so... 

Long story short: So far, I think that Apple uses the most sophisticated and secure data protection technologies for their users, without bothering them too much with details. Some of this stuff is so secure that even with a court order, it is basically impossible to get the requested data. This may also be the reason why Apple is under so much pressure from politicians and government agencies in the US but with the Safe Harbor agreement invalidation by the EU court, I think that Apple will definitely stick to their methods and keep fighting off any requests for government access as long as the can.

If the US government insists on access, this may actually ruin some of the most advanced tech companies and their business on a long term run. Or US companies could actually move their servers to the EU, which would be an even bigger blow for the US government. 

So what about intelligence agencies trying to get your data? Well, most people make mistakes when handling data or communications (one reason Bin Laden never communicated by any electronic means after 9/11, he was clever), so this is when they "get" you. Like I said before, if an intelligence agency wants to get to you and your data, they will. I am more worried about criminals, not government agencies.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

noone1:

Why does it matter if they collect your location data? 99% of people have location services on their phone activated anyway, so what difference does it make whether you're walking or driving?

Requesting deeper data set than what is currently required isn't a big deal. Maybe they want to have data available in the event they want to do something later. Maybe they have some projects in their infancy or research they want to do that could make use of the data at some point for something that might happen later on or might never come to fruition at all.

Automakers can either agree or disagree. Maybe they're paranoid or maybe they aren't. Google can just go buy just about any automotive manufacturer if they really wanted. They have more cash on hand that most companies are worth. Big tech companies have more free cash flow than some manufacturers are even worth.

I do not care about the NSA handling my location or data. I care a lot about a private company doing the same. I do not want that. Whenever money and profits are involved, bad things happen at some point. No thanks.

As to Google being able to buy any automotive manufacturer if they wanted: So why haven't they done it yet? 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

noone1:

SciFrog:

So basically Porsche just relegated Android to Blackberry and Windows phone and nixed advanced interaction with the smartphone. If I was an Android user I would drop Android just for that reason. Kudos to Apple to try to do the right thing privacy wise and more reasons to never use anything Google related if possible. This comforts my opinion that Android users are fools and that there is no free lunch.

I'd argue 911 buyers are the bigger fools these days, regardless of their phone. Speaking of free lunches, it's cheaper to drive a Ferrari than it is a new 911.

A Ferrari would be much more expensive to drive and maintain than my current 991 C4 GTS Cab, I don't have a clue what you are talking about.  Insurance cost alone would be double, maintaining cost around 3x higher.

Lease cost would be insanely high (compared to my car) and I wouldn't be able to register the car on my business because the tax office wouldn't "approve" it as a business car.

Too much Google today for you?  

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Ferraris have also cost me way less money over time than Porsches have... And with the new 991 prices it is probably even worse now.

A new 991 C4 GTS Cab in the US would get murdered in 2-3 years.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-911-Carrera-4S-/252096324977?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3ab21ca571&item=252096324977

That's got 3K miles and a 2013. Asking $45K under MSRP. Can think of so many exotics that you could buy instead of a new C4S that would be way better and cheaper to own.

Just priced a new 991.1 C4 GTS cab on Porsche website for $158k. The 991.2 would be even more. In 4 years this car would be less than $80k.

In fair comparison though a 4 year old California looses about $100k from new and a 458 looses about $70k during the same time, an FF $150k...

...and none of these Ferraris is a cabriolet and has AWD So you need to get one of California/458 and one FF.

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

1) your comment is irrelevant to the depreciation which is the point of noone1

2) many people don't care about AWD in a sports car, personally I don't drive them in the rain, I have other cars for that

RC: Porsche maintenance cost have risen dramatically in the US when Aston and Ferrari are basically the same. insurance is not that different. The lease cost issue is German specific. There are no such deals in the US.

SciFrog:

1) your comment is irrelevant to the depreciation which is the point of noone1

2) many people don't care about AWD in a sports car, personally I don't drive them in the rain, I have other cars for that

RC: Porsche maintenance cost have risen dramatically in the US when Aston and Ferrari are basically the same. insurance is not that different. The lease cost issue is German specific. There are no such deals in the US.

In Germany, Porsche is basically the "Volkswagen" of wealthy business people. A 911 is well accepted in the business community, also the tax office accepts this car as a a business car, which is important to deduct cost. 

When I compare Porsche lease cost to Ferrari lease cost, assuming a similar price tag, the difference is huge. Also, the tax office would never "approve" a Ferrari, especially in my field of business. Unless you make so much money that the tax office doesn't care (which doesn't happen often).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Curious - how on earth does your tax office make a distinction between Porsche & Ferrari & get away with it? Not sure you've be able to do that in the UK.

991 Carrera Black\Black, XC90 Black\Black, 120 Cab Black\Coral Red - 2 kids, 1 dog

bridggar:

Curious - how on earth does your tax office make a distinction between Porsche & Ferrari & get away with it? Not sure you've be able to do that in the UK.

The German tax office has the liberty to "approve" a car as a business expense or not. Of course you can take them to court if you don't agree but would you really do that? 

It depends: If you provide the tax office with 20 Mio. EUR tax money per year, I doubt they would care if you have a Ferrari or not on your business. If you provide them with "only" 200k EUR per year, I think they would handle the whole situation completely different. It depends on the business and if a Ferrari is a "must" (for example if you need the car to "represent" yourself, for example if you are working as a fashion designer with VIPs or whatever) or if you are a handyman and you don't really "need" such a car. 

A Porsche 911 is an established business car in Germany (I know this is difficult to comprehend in other countries), so no problem with it but depending on your business, the tax office can request a driver's log. Usually, they are using the 1% rule (1% of the car's new price value is considered a monthly profit and added on top of your taxable profits). The bad thing about the 1% rule: No matter how much you paid for the car (rebate, special lease rate, etc.), they always take the MSRP.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

I like the system we have. For a car to be written off as a business expense it needs to have business markings on the side. Make a lot of sense.

SciFrog:

I like the system we have. For a car to be written off as a business expense it needs to have business markings on the side. Make a lot of sense.

It makes sense but I wouldn't exactly want myself to be "identifiable" by a sticker, so everyone knows who I am. I once had a Smart with business markings all over it and one time, a very angry guy was waiting in front of my business telling me that I'm an idiot because I cut him off. It wasn't me though, it was one of my employees. Since that time, I do not have business markings on my delivery car anymore.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)