Crown

I think Tesla is the apple of cars; it's new, it's different, it's expensive and it's cool.
In the same time, people who want to can say that they bought it for the environment, so that gives them a good excuse to spend money and show you have money, without getting the typical European envious reactions... combine these facts and you realize why it is so popular amongst certain groups.

Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys

Joost:

I think Tesla is the apple of cars; it's new, it's different, it's expensive and it's cool.

I can see you are new to the Apple world.  Apple is not different just because it is expensive and "cool". 

In the same time, people who want to can say that they bought it for the environment, so that gives them a good excuse to spend money and show you have money, without getting the typical European envious reactions... combine these facts and you realize why it is so popular amongst certain groups.

Tesla has become a "message" for many buyers, they want to express a certain feeling or life choice. Many won't admit it though because they are...humble...they think.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

Joost:

I think Tesla is the apple of cars; it's new, it's different, it's expensive and it's cool.

I can see you are new to the Apple world.  Apple is not different just because it is expensive and "cool". 

In the same time, people who want to can say that they bought it for the environment, so that gives them a good excuse to spend money and show you have money, without getting the typical European envious reactions... combine these facts and you realize why it is so popular amongst certain groups.

Tesla has become a "message" for many buyers, they want to express a certain feeling or life choice. Many won't admit it though because they are...humble...they think.  

Hahah you can tell, can you? :-)
Well tbh, I think it was, back in the days when it started to become popular in larger circles than just some heavy power users. It may have been cool for a reason (well implemented features such as big touch screens, apps, etc), but a lot of people spent a lot of money on iphones just because they were cool and other brands weren't.

Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys

RC:

I was talking conscience, nothing else. You cannot "measure" conscience and so far, I do not know a single ELV driver (incl. some Tesla owners I know) who do not mention, of course purely incidental , that they also want to do something for the environment. 

Why don't they buy a different ELV then? Much cheaper... BMW i3, BMW i8...there are other examples. 

Are there any incentives in Switzerland for getting an ELV?

None of the owners I know has ever mentioned the environment factor . None . And when you look at the drivers they are either wealthy soccer moms or wealthy middle aged men living in big houses that used to own BMW  5 series, MB E , Porsche Cayenne , Jaguar etc... 

Tesla is the only good ELV for the moment . They look like a car and not a toy . They have space . They are though differently ( this is a HUGE attraction ) .  You do not go to an old fashion garage when you buy one . You go to a nice show room in the middle of the city with no mechanic around it . It looks neat , modern, efficient .  Then of course there is a hype and a ''  must have of the moment '' factor , like the iPhone for example .  

You get a car tax rebate on the ELV , but that is not the reason people buy them . It saves you maybe 800 .- a year . 

People love not to have to go to a petrol station . 

One can not ignore how many are sold . And it is for a reason . 

--

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

MKSGR:

Gnil:

bluelines:

Teslas and premium SUVs. That is Zürich.

Same in the Geneva-Lausanne region . You see Tesla way more then any other premium brand . They are litteleraly all over the place .  They can not be ignored and just brushed away . The market for them is huge in sub urban area with speed limits .

--

 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

 

Just checked: as per July 2017 Tesla had an approx. share of 8-9% of upper class car sales in Germany (S-class, 7 series, Panamera, Audi A8). Depending on the point of view this can be considered high or low 

French market are biased towards french cars . The German marked is even more biased towards the german cars ( which is all very understandable ) . Only place where you can have a true and neutral vue on what cars attract the most people is Switzerland as we have no  interest in supporting one more then the other 

And I find 8-9% for the Germany pretty high , specially that it is the country in wester europe that is probably the least friendly to Tesla 

--

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

The Swiss market was one of the strongest markets for US cars in the past (not sure now...), so this isn't really a way to measure stuff like that. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

The Swiss market was one of the strongest markets for US cars in the past (not sure now...), so this isn't really a way to measure stuff like that. 

Because we are not biased and government does not push any brands , unlike Germany or France . 

We are neutral ..... every car maker has the same chance . If it would be like that in Germany , you would have loads of Mustangs driving around. Add speed limits and you would have loads of Tesla 's  

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Gnil:

RC:

The Swiss market was one of the strongest markets for US cars in the past (not sure now...), so this isn't really a way to measure stuff like that. 

Because we are not biased and government does not push any brands , unlike Germany or France . 

The government pushes car brands in Germany? You are kidding, right? They may "help" the car industry with certain union or tax related stuff but I am not aware of any "pushing" of German car brands in Germany. 

We are neutral ..... every car maker has the same chance . If it would be like that in Germany , you would have loads of Mustangs driving around. Add speed limits and you would have loads of Tesla 's  

The Mustang sells cheap V8 cars through official German Ford dealerships, this is why they are successful.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

Gnil:

RC:

The Swiss market was one of the strongest markets for US cars in the past (not sure now...), so this isn't really a way to measure stuff like that. 

Because we are not biased and government does not push any brands , unlike Germany or France . 

The government pushes car brands in Germany? You are kidding, right? They may "help" the car industry with certain union or tax related stuff but I am not aware of any "pushing" of German car brands in Germany. 

We are neutral ..... every car maker has the same chance . If it would be like that in Germany , you would have loads of Mustangs driving around. Add speed limits and you would have loads of Tesla 's  

The Mustang sells cheap V8 cars through official German Ford dealerships, this is why they are successful.

There is always a strong nationalist sentiment when a country produces cars. So even if the government does not directly push their own car manufacturer , they do through the politics. It is very normal. A German will be happier to buy a Germany car then a French or US one. Same applies to France . Choosing between a Clio or a Polo ,they will take the Clio. You can't help it. People go national. They are biaised. And that happens to Tesla in Germany. 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Gnil:

RC:

Gnil:

RC:

The Swiss market was one of the strongest markets for US cars in the past (not sure now...), so this isn't really a way to measure stuff like that. 

Because we are not biased and government does not push any brands , unlike Germany or France . 

The government pushes car brands in Germany? You are kidding, right? They may "help" the car industry with certain union or tax related stuff but I am not aware of any "pushing" of German car brands in Germany. 

We are neutral ..... every car maker has the same chance . If it would be like that in Germany , you would have loads of Mustangs driving around. Add speed limits and you would have loads of Tesla 's  

The Mustang sells cheap V8 cars through official German Ford dealerships, this is why they are successful.

There is always a strong nationalist sentiment when a country produces cars. So even if the government does not directly push their own car manufacturer , they do through the politics. It is very normal. A German will be happier to buy a Germany car then a French or US one. Same applies to France . Choosing between a Clio or a Polo ,they will take the Clio. You can't help it. People go national. They are biaised. And that happens to Tesla in Germany. 

Germans are not Swiss.  

I am not aware of any specific politics favoring German car manufacturers vs other EU or outside EU manufacturers. Also, many Germans drive non-German cars. The reason why many Germans drive German cars is simple: They are attractive, reliable and there are dealerships everywhere. I am not aware of Germans buying specifically German cars because they are...German. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Gnil:

RC:

 

Like I said...luxury cars for the "green conscience". 

It has nothing to do with '' green conscience '' . All the people I know who bought one are very far away from '' green'' . Quite the opposite in fact .  It is the package . The new technology . The '' different '' approach . The coolness about it . The '' future '' . The easy way to use them . etc.....  One must stop looking at Tesla from the '' green'' perspective . ( which is not very green anyway ) . That's what people who do not understand this car make for mistake . 

+1

Nothing with green to do. Everything with the rest to do.

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White

AM

ALDO:

 

Ugly cars....

How long are people on this forum going to deny that Teslas are great cars? The numbers don't lie.

noone1:

How long are people on this forum going to deny that Teslas are great cars? The numbers don't lie.

Really? You are going to judge a car by it's numbers? In that case minivans, pickup trucks, and hatchbacks are the best cars in the planet 

Compared to your average person in this forum members are experienced drivers who like driving and are connoisseurs on the subject of you will, there is a higher standard than getting cheap milage or being green or the like...

--

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

What numbers? Sale in USA? In that case you are spot on.

Sale in EU? You must be joking then.

Drove Model X briefly yesterday in the evening. Austrian owner is close neighbor of mine on Adriatic coast where I am currently with my family. In short big no for me. For various reasons. He is extremely impressed with the car for totally irrelevant reasons(for me as a car enthusiast for whom drive dynamics is the most important merit). His previous car was Land Rover Discovery Diesel...

BTW, it was P90D model with full options. Build quality bad for its price. Range? With full batteries 365km. After three full acceleration runs range was 90km. Car weights 2550kg. 

I admit! I almost bought an Tesla. I loved the ride in it and I was amazed by the computer. The build quality was good enough for me. I also think it is way too expensive for what you get. I also think the car is not comparable in luxury class. Nevertheless - I would have bought one with foldable rear seats. 

And again and again and again.... I'm soooo happy I didn't buy one because of the missing charging infrastructure we are having today in the areas where I drive. Period! I made my Hybrid experience and I concluded only re-charging at home. On tour I recharge with the internal charge function (very inefficient) or I purely go on combustion. Also - the Tesla lacks to be driven on long-distance in adequate speed (around 150km/h) and receiving a fair range.

If this all improves - I will be a client. I clearly would rather buy a Tesla than a Panamera/E-Class/5-series. I think the car and its image is much more adorable than the mainstream mid-size limousines. 

Lars, almost fully agree with you. My wife owns latest e-Golf VII and it is a great city commuter. Range is very good for city driving and drive dynamics are acceptable. Network of normal e-chargers in Zagreb is pretty good and my wife almost never charges the car at our home garage. Yes, it has its own shortcomings. But, as a city commuter it is great. I am looking forward to Mission E or J1. Or any ELV from European manufactures that will come in next few years. But, no Tesla's for me.

noone1:

How long are people on this forum going to deny that Teslas are great cars? The numbers don't lie.

Now I also see it 

P.S.: The Model S is totally underwhelming - as a passenger it felt more like a 3 series BMW than an upper-class car 

Lars997:

I admit! I almost bought an Tesla. I loved the ride in it and I was amazed by the computer. The build quality was good enough for me. I also think it is way too expensive for what you get. I also think the car is not comparable in luxury class. Nevertheless - I would have bought one with foldable rear seats. 

 

 

The car feels cheap, doesn't it?

KresoF1:

After three full acceleration runs range was 90km.

You're lying by the way.

noone1:

KresoF1:

After three full acceleration runs range was 90km.

You're lying by the way.

Yes. This is complete rubbish. I've done 0-100 accelerations 10 times in a row with a P100D and was surprised how little the battery it actually did consume.

noone1:

KresoF1:

After three full acceleration runs range was 90km.

You're lying by the way.

First of all I would smack you in the face because what I told you is the truth. Car had 200km range and after 3 runs from say it 20-200km/h it was showing 90km range. We did it on A1 high way toward Zadar in Croatia BTW. 

Am I very rude here? Yes, for a reason. Tesla fans are becoming a loud minority here and they are infecting rennteam like a plague. There are a tones of web sites for Tesla fans but, no they need to spread their "wisdom" here. 

Tesla fans are like ISIS members. There is only Tesla for them. No ELV is good or will be good. Only Tesla counts.

Maybe a little absence of any kind of comments from me is good choice right now?

Herbaliser left after most judge his way of driving after excellent report that her wrote. 

After 12 years of been member here I am thinking the same. Rennteam was always great but, recently it become "Teslateam" and I am not interested in that.

Also, many of members here are joking constantly about RC and his claims. Yes, sometimes it sounds like RC is a better then most of us. But, he and CR are owners of the rennteam. Our sportscar temple. Rather to appreciate it many are spitting on it. Yes, maybe I am exaggerating again but, this is my feel.

KresoF1:

noone1:

KresoF1:

After three full acceleration runs range was 90km.

You're lying by the way.

First of all I would smack you in the face because what I told you is the truth. Car had 200km range and after 3 runs from say it 20-200km/h it was showing 90km range. We did it on A1 high way toward Zadar in Croatia BTW. 

Am I very rude here? Yes, for a reason. Tesla fans are becoming a loud minority here and they are infecting rennteam like a plague. There are a tones of web sites for Tesla fans but, no they need to spread their "wisdom" here. 

Tesla fans are like ISIS members. There is only Tesla for them. No ELV is good or will be good. Only Tesla counts.

Maybe a little absence of any kind of comments from me is good choice right now?

Herbaliser left after most judge his way of driving after excellent report that her wrote. 

After 12 years of been member here I am thinking the same. Rennteam was always great but, recently it become "Teslateam" and I am not interested in that.

Also, many of members here are joking constantly about RC and his claims. Yes, sometimes it sounds like RC is a better then most of us. But, he and CR are owners of the rennteam. Our sportscar temple. Rather to appreciate it many are spitting on it. Yes, maybe I am exaggerating again but, this is my feel.

A bit OTT with ISIS comparison, don't you think?

Speaking for my own reasons why I like Tesla is after having experienced the cars for a while and previously (1 year ago) was extremely negative towards Tesla and EVs, in a very similar way that I see members in here react. Therefore thought it would be interesting to share some insights from a member who previously owned about 10 Porsches ranging from 993 to Macan. Some of my posts have been a bit over the top, but some of them at least trying to more focus on the real world experience (in a country where you don't pace above 150km/h) about EV than specifically about Tesla. The reason Tesla is mainly mentioned is because it's currently the only viable option to replace a daily driver ICE-car and the first car that looks cool and not like a Prius. All other EVs are more 2nd car and city cars for shorter trips, mainly due to lack of charging infrastructure and smaller batteries.

One thing is for certain. I'm not a Tesla fanboi (even if I happen to think the company is cool and think what they have achieved so far is quite impressive and also disruptive to some extent), nor have I jumped into EVs because it's more environmentally friendly. I'm however a HUGE fan of BEV-cars and the drivetrain and really looking forward to see what comes out from the German manufacturers in due course. Probably the most interesting will be Mission-E and how Porsche solve charging-infra and how the landscape will look in about 3-5 years from now.

I've also enjoyed this forum a lot over the last 12 years, and still do! This will however be my last post about EVs on this forum in any section because I agree that there are other places to discuss this on the internet. I'll however still stick around and I'm still very interested in Porsche sports cars and everything concerning that.

Cheers 

KresoF1:

noone1:

KresoF1:

After three full acceleration runs range was 90km.

You're lying by the way.

First of all I would smack you in the face because what I told you is the truth. Car had 200km range and after 3 runs from say it 20-200km/h it was showing 90km range. We did it on A1 high way toward Zadar in Croatia BTW. 

Am I very rude here? Yes, for a reason. Tesla fans are becoming a loud minority here and they are infecting rennteam like a plague. There are a tones of web sites for Tesla fans but, no they need to spread their "wisdom" here. 

Tesla fans are like ISIS members. There is only Tesla for them. No ELV is good or will be good. Only Tesla counts.

Maybe a little absence of any kind of comments from me is good choice right now?

Herbaliser left after most judge his way of driving after excellent report that her wrote. 

After 12 years of been member here I am thinking the same. Rennteam was always great but, recently it become "Teslateam" and I am not interested in that.

Also, many of members here are joking constantly about RC and his claims. Yes, sometimes it sounds like RC is a better then most of us. But, he and CR are owners of the rennteam. Our sportscar temple. Rather to appreciate it many are spitting on it. Yes, maybe I am exaggerating again but, this is my feel.

Cry my river.

You know just as well as anyone that the range is based on nothing more than a snapshot of what your driving style had recently been like. Had you have then just drove normally again, the range would have either shot back up quickly or you'd have realized that the range wasn't going down anymore (maybe even going up) even though you were driving. Every car on Earth does this.

Was that the first time you've ever looked at a gas gauge before?

noone1:

KresoF1:

noone1:

KresoF1:

After three full acceleration runs range was 90km.

You're lying by the way.

First of all I would smack you in the face because what I told you is the truth. Car had 200km range and after 3 runs from say it 20-200km/h it was showing 90km range. We did it on A1 high way toward Zadar in Croatia BTW. 

Am I very rude here? Yes, for a reason. Tesla fans are becoming a loud minority here and they are infecting rennteam like a plague. There are a tones of web sites for Tesla fans but, no they need to spread their "wisdom" here. 

Tesla fans are like ISIS members. There is only Tesla for them. No ELV is good or will be good. Only Tesla counts.

Maybe a little absence of any kind of comments from me is good choice right now?

Herbaliser left after most judge his way of driving after excellent report that her wrote. 

After 12 years of been member here I am thinking the same. Rennteam was always great but, recently it become "Teslateam" and I am not interested in that.

Also, many of members here are joking constantly about RC and his claims. Yes, sometimes it sounds like RC is a better then most of us. But, he and CR are owners of the rennteam. Our sportscar temple. Rather to appreciate it many are spitting on it. Yes, maybe I am exaggerating again but, this is my feel.

Cry my river.

You know just as well as anyone that the range is based on nothing more than a snapshot of what your driving style had recently been like. Had you have then just drove normally again, the range would have either shot back up quickly or you'd have realized that the range wasn't going down anymore (maybe even going up) even though you were driving. Every car on Earth does this.

Was that the first time you've ever looked at a gas gauge before?

And nothing wrong of him reporting what he saw right after the launch at the range estimate.

If anything, it's the car that's lying, not him.

Tesla are nice car with a nice novelty idea.

Are they the best? Absolutely not, unless one only talk about EVs currently on the market. They are head and shoulder the Volt and Leaf that's for sure. As for fit and finish, they are still a bit off industry standard, I believe the e-Golf has better fit and finishing.

Once Mission E is launched, there will be a proper luxury EV to compare Tesla against, and if Tesla doesn't improve drastically it will get left behind. Porsche's fit and finish will blow the Tesla out of the water, and the charging advantage of the 800V system cannot be ignored. 

As of right now, and in the near future, pure EV is just a niche product, it serves one or two specific group of people perfectly, but it's not for everyone. Just like a sports car only serve a niche group of customers also, same for big sedans, and SUVs, and wagons. 

Can EV go mainstream? Absolutely, when the charging speed and infrastructure matches the connivence of gas stations.

Not counting the niche people, the general public is better served by hybrids right now, the green aspect of EV with the connivence of gas cars. No range anxiety. 

--

Whoopsy:

Tesla are nice car with a nice novelty idea.

Are they the best? Absolutely not, unless one only talk about EVs currently on the market. They are head and shoulder the Volt and Leaf that's for sure. As for fit and finish, they are still a bit off industry standard, I believe the e-Golf has better fit and finishing.

Once Mission E is launched, there will be a proper luxury EV to compare Tesla against, and if Tesla doesn't improve drastically it will get left behind. Porsche's fit and finish will blow the Tesla out of the water, and the charging advantage of the 800V system cannot be ignored. 

As of right now, and in the near future, pure EV is just a niche product, it serves one or two specific group of people perfectly, but it's not for everyone. Just like a sports car only serve a niche group of customers also, same for big sedans, and SUVs, and wagons. 

Can EV go mainstream? Absolutely, when the charging speed and infrastructure matches the connivence of gas stations.

Not counting the niche people, the general public is better served by hybrids right now, the green aspect of EV with the connivence of gas cars. No range anxiety. 

 

--

 

 

 

 

Nick,

Fully agree with you.

lukestern:

I've also enjoyed this forum a lot over the last 12 years, and still do! This will however be my last post about EVs on this forum in any section because I agree that there are other places to discuss this on the internet. I'll however still stick around and I'm still very interested in Porsche sports cars and everything concerning that.

 

Its OK to talk about Tesla on this thread since its a Tesla thread, as long as it doesn't "infect" other threads, after all we even have a off topic section. Whether you decide to keep posting about EV or not, glad you stick around 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

noone1:

KresoF1:

noone1:

KresoF1:

After three full acceleration runs range was 90km.

You're lying by the way.

First of all I would smack you in the face because what I told you is the truth. Car had 200km range and after 3 runs from say it 20-200km/h it was showing 90km range. We did it on A1 high way toward Zadar in Croatia BTW. 

Am I very rude here? Yes, for a reason. Tesla fans are becoming a loud minority here and they are infecting rennteam like a plague. There are a tones of web sites for Tesla fans but, no they need to spread their "wisdom" here. 

Tesla fans are like ISIS members. There is only Tesla for them. No ELV is good or will be good. Only Tesla counts.

Maybe a little absence of any kind of comments from me is good choice right now?

Herbaliser left after most judge his way of driving after excellent report that her wrote. 

After 12 years of been member here I am thinking the same. Rennteam was always great but, recently it become "Teslateam" and I am not interested in that.

Also, many of members here are joking constantly about RC and his claims. Yes, sometimes it sounds like RC is a better then most of us. But, he and CR are owners of the rennteam. Our sportscar temple. Rather to appreciate it many are spitting on it. Yes, maybe I am exaggerating again but, this is my feel.

Cry my river.

You know just as well as anyone that the range is based on nothing more than a snapshot of what your driving style had recently been like. Had you have then just drove normally again, the range would have either shot back up quickly or you'd have realized that the range wasn't going down anymore (maybe even going up) even though you were driving. Every car on Earth does this.

Was that the first time you've ever looked at a gas gauge before?

You called him a liar, and he wasn't lying buddy. That is the range the car displayed, don't pin on him not understanding how range displays work since its you you didn't get it, we all understood what he meant 

--

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS