Crown

The Tesla Energy business reminds me of Amazon and their Cloud business. They focus executing very well and suddenly they are by far the leaders. You can probably tell I am a share holder in Apple, Tesla and Amazon. Not Google....the world as changed and the main technology companies can enter any business they want to unlike never before. I still want my Porsche Mission E! (to keep the thread on theme )

2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2014 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab 2014 BMW i3 2017 Porsche Mission E on order

EnglishManInNY:

The Tesla Energy business reminds me of Amazon and their Cloud business. They focus executing very well and suddenly they are by far the leaders. You can probably tell I am a share holder in Apple, Tesla and Amazon. Not Google....the world as changed and the main technology companies can enter any business they want to unlike never before. I still want my Porsche Mission E! (to keep the thread on theme )

You just might get a Porsche Mission by 2019, since the company has already got as far as showing a concept car. Wouldn't count on seeing an Apple car by 2019, since that company is supposedly only now appointing the specialist automotive staff needed to start design and development of the product. The production facilities would also have to be up and running by then, which is also not a trivial matter. 

fritz

The Mission E I think will come well before 2019.

2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2014 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab 2014 BMW i3 2017 Porsche Mission E on order

Elon wants open source so that everyone will buy his batteries. He's also doing Tesla because he feels "it's the right thing to do." He knows he could IPO SpaceX and make more than enough to never be able to spend it and it's conceivable that in a decade it could make him one of if not the richest people in the world. He won't though because then he can't try to go to Mars. 

Most here do't really understand him, the money is (really) nice but what it allows him to do or try to do is what drives him. Being worth 2 billion or 12 billion doesn't make that much difference when people look at you 50 years from now. Being the guy that owns a space company, a rocket base and owned the company that put the first person on Mars? Priceless. Being the guy that started the first electric car company that really did something? Priceless. Same with the MegaLoop same with owning the world's biggest battery plant...

Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

HyperLoop. You are spot on Mithras. Some people see beyond money. Musk is one of them.

Don't forget SolarCity!

2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2014 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab 2014 BMW i3 2017 Porsche Mission E on order

fritz:

 

You just might get a Porsche Mission by 2019, since the company has already got as far as showing a concept car. Wouldn't count on seeing an Apple car by 2019, since that company is supposedly only now appointing the specialist automotive staff needed to start design and development of the product. The production facilities would also have to be up and running by then, which is also not a trivial matter. 

Assuming they are working on a car, Apple might already have a "concept" car, but they wouldn't be showing it around if they did. They would do this the way they do everything else, not like the rest of the industry. 

Maybe something out of left field, the rumoured Apple car is in fact a project with Porsche and it is the Mission E?

apias:

fritz:

 

You just might get a Porsche Mission by 2019, since the company has already got as far as showing a concept car. Wouldn't count on seeing an Apple car by 2019, since that company is supposedly only now appointing the specialist automotive staff needed to start design and development of the product. The production facilities would also have to be up and running by then, which is also not a trivial matter. 

Assuming they are working on a car, Apple might already have a "concept" car, but they wouldn't be showing it around if they did. They would do this the way they do everything else, not like the rest of the industry. 

There are regulations. Apple had to pre announce the original iPhone 6 moths before launch to get FCC approval...

Whoopsy:

Maybe something out of left field, the rumoured Apple car is in fact a project with Porsche and it is the Mission E?

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

apias:

fritz:

 

You just might get a Porsche Mission by 2019, since the company has already got as far as showing a concept car. Wouldn't count on seeing an Apple car by 2019, since that company is supposedly only now appointing the specialist automotive staff needed to start design and development of the product. The production facilities would also have to be up and running by then, which is also not a trivial matter. 

Assuming they are working on a car, Apple might already have a "concept" car, but they wouldn't be showing it around if they did. They would do this the way they do everything else, not like the rest of the industry. 

Apple would need to have specialists in the relevant range of automotive disciplines at its disposal in advance of building a concept car if that concept were to be worth a damn. From that stage onwards it would still need 4 years plus to start of production of saleable vehicles, as it is doing everything for the first time. 
However much faith you might have in Apple's own ability to perform miracles, the supply chain for OEM parts will still require the long lead times which are usual in the auto industry. 

fritz

KresoF1:

Whoopsy:

That's the beauty of hybrid/electric drive, software tuning. Either by revving the electric motor faster or letting more current through the system.

Just like the 918's hybrid system, Tesla built their electric system with a healthy safety margin, for reliability other reasons. Through testing, they can find out how close they can cut into the safety margin without compromising safety and reliability. Porsche did it by re-rating the electric motors, Tesla did the same thing. The difference is, Porsche didn't charge extra for the performance that was already there, Tesla did.

It's like tuning a conventional motor, but without the mechanical work. 

Hmm... How about this Auto Bild tested Tesla 85D and made attempt to do several 0-100km/h runs...

First run 3.5s, second run 4.0s, third run 4.5s, fourth run almost 5s, fifth run almost 5.5s, sixth run did not happened.

When I drove Tesla I noticed the same thing, after two hard accelerations till say it 160km/h car started to hesitate. 

Tesla also sucked big time on not so fast autobahn (till around 170km) driving. Not providing enough oomph for long autobahn driving.

This thing is apparently designed to impress on red lights but, only up to 5 red light races in a row.

Porsche indirectly mentioned the reduction in acceleration performance in its press release for the Mission E by stating the car is equipped with permanent magnetic motors that do not lose power over multiple periods of acceleration.  Porsche also tied that statement that this technology is derived from its LeMans racing program.

I am not siding with Tesla, but I am speaking for normal observation.

A Tesla wasn't designed for the Autobahn, a highway that's accessible by relatively small subset of humans on Earth, mostly living in Europe and primarily Germany. That's not their intended target, city people are, normal people who lived in countries with a low speed limit. Within that mission statement Tesla hit their mark.

For the slow down from repeated testing, the Tesla is not to be singled out. A lot of cars, even conventional engine cars will also exhibit the same trait. You weekend drag strip is a prime example, full of people icing their intake between runs. 

Heat is a major enemy to car performance, be it conventional or electric. 

Should car magazines start testing acceleration of cars after 5 test runs back to back first? Or how about braking test after another 5 runs to have the brake system fully heat soaked first?

Headline numbers are just that, 1 hit wonder numbers.

fritz:

apias:

fritz:

 

You just might get a Porsche Mission by 2019, since the company has already got as far as showing a concept car. Wouldn't count on seeing an Apple car by 2019, since that company is supposedly only now appointing the specialist automotive staff needed to start design and development of the product. The production facilities would also have to be up and running by then, which is also not a trivial matter. 

Assuming they are working on a car, Apple might already have a "concept" car, but they wouldn't be showing it around if they did. They would do this the way they do everything else, not like the rest of the industry. 

Apple would need to have specialists in the relevant range of automotive disciplines at its disposal in advance of building a concept car if that concept were to be worth a damn. From that stage onwards it would still need 4 years plus to start of production of saleable vehicles, as it is doing everything for the first time. 
However much faith you might have in Apple's own ability to perform miracles, the supply chain for OEM parts will still require the long lead times which are usual in the auto industry. 

They've supposedly been hiring quietly for some time now, with a team of already 1000+ working on "Titan". They could also be quietly buying parts through shell companies, at this point at least, and they could pretty much outbid anyone in the supply chain, if they wanted to. I don't think they would be performing miracles, just that the project, whatever it is, has been ongoing for a while, and had 1000 employees before any rumors even leaked out, so who knows how far along they are or what they are up to. Assuming, of course, that they are actually working on a car.

sfo:

'insane mode' is a pathetic attempt to make a dull car interesting

and like someone without a personality telling a great joke, which does not bear repeating too much

My guess is you have never driven one.  As I mentioned in an earlier post, I test drove one with the "ludicrous" option and was a bit blown away.  Bought it two days later and now counting the days until it arrives.

I have little doubt that it would stay with my 991 TTS or either of my 12C's up to 100 or so.  And those two cars have to be in launch mode to stay up with it.  With the Tesla you just stomp down on the pedal - no drama, no screeching engine sound, just immense acceleration.  The only reason it starts to fade after 100 is that it only has one gear!  If it had a second gear would be a different story after 100.  The immense torque is always just 100 or 200 milliseconds away from being fully available, with no pause for a downshift.  I have always been a fan of low end torque and superchargers and the Tesla does low end torque better than anything out there.  It's a very different driving experience and I loved it.

Many here have commented how impractical all these very high HP cars are in an urbane environment. Well one reason is the enormous noise they put out.  There are a lot of opportunities for a brief bit of heavy acceleration without endangering anyone, but personally I generally pass because I don't want to rattle windows over a city block area.  With the Tesla not a problem. 

If if you want to talk boring, let's talk about the 991 TTS.  Boring with a dreadful exhaust note.  Traded mine in less than a year for a 991 GTS Cab.  

I have the serial car buying disease. In a bad year have gone through 6 + sports cars.  McLarens's, Ferrari's, Porsche's, Aston's, with a few Mercedes and BMW's  sprinkled in.  I can't recall being as excited as I currently am about a new car coming in.  The Tesla is a very well engineered car and the new interiors are the match for  BMW and Mercedes.  I personally think it's a beautiful car.  Saw one a month ago and thought it was an Aston until I got closer. Think a member of the design team was from Aston.  

For me the vast pool of low end torque makes it an exciting car to drive in the typical environment we have here in the states.

Important to remember that it basically is a 3400 lb car with a 1500 lb battery strapped on the bottom of it with a COG below the axles.  It corners like its on rails and is almost impossible to turn over.  The standard safety testing protocols couldn't turn it over.  

Starting to sound like a fanboy deep into the Kool Aid.  Drive one if you have the chance.

EnglishManInNY:

Google is getting squeezed by Amazon and Apple right now. The need to do something. Does Elon stay at Larry Page's apartment when he visits the valley!?

Apartment ....no....Larry Page basically owns an entire block of Palo Alto including the most historic adobe home  from 100+ yrs ago as well as an attached newer home that is so far ahead of anything on earth in terms of building technologies and controls .....its a half block from Steve Job's home . They all live in the same couple of Palo Alto neighborhoods, from Tim Cook to Elon Musk to Mark Zuckerberg and on and on , the latter who " knocked on all his neighbors doors " and bought almost all the surrounding homes on two streets , each for 3-5 x market value , letting them stay rent free forever , just to prevent anyone building a ginormous house to loom over his . Its been done by others and we Palo Altans call it " Zuckerberging " , LOL ! 

One of these homeowners , retired , and who had paid peanuts for it more than 4 decades ago ( for a small , out of place 1950s ranch style house ) sold his for $7 million . It was by far the smallest home that was Zuckerberged .... the rest are MUCH nicer and those each sold for ....you dont wanna know ....but still peanuts to him compared to the hundreds of acres of prime land he bought  on the north side of Kauai  

BTW , his ride  is a newer GTi ...not even an R ...I guess his ancient Acura Integra finally konked out 

Suffice to say many of these geeks are not car people - hence Tesla's short-comings if looking from a petrol-head perspective.

Musk wasn't looking for Fortnum and Mason indefinitely - more WalMart - just needed the roadster to fund the S to fund the mass model. (with an SUV along the way)

991 Carrera Black\Black, XC90 Black\Black, 120 Cab Black\Coral Red - 2 kids, 1 dog

fritz:

MKW:

sfo:

'insane mode' is a pathetic attempt to make a dull car interesting

and like someone without a personality telling a great joke, which does not bear repeating too much

 

yes..I know exactly which dull car you are referring to ...the 997 / 991 Turbo and their gimmicky 15 second " overboost " feature ...now coming on the 991.2 turbo motors , also !

  How many real-world situations (on the road or even the track) would allow you to use the over-boost function for longer than 15 seconds?  

Porsche actually owes me one for the overboost function.  I know they never confirmed it but I am pretty sure they "stole" the idea from me. I was bitching about this function on Funcarsonline and later on Rennteam for years before Porsche finally decided to offer it on the 911 Turbo. My Lancia Delta HF Integrale had it and this is why I wanted to see it on a 911 Turbo. May have been a coincidence but I highly doubt it. I mentioned it almost every week in my posts for years. 

Yes, I think the overboost function makes a lot of sense and yes, I think that 15 seconds are enough (in the beginning, I think we had a 10 seconds overboost only, don't remember anymore).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

bridggar:

Suffice to say many of these geeks are not car people - hence Tesla's short-comings if looking from a petrol-head perspective.

Musk wasn't looking for Fortnum and Mason indefinitely - more WalMart - just needed the roadster to fund the S to fund the mass model. (with an SUV along the way)

This may actually be Tesla's major weakness and a reason they haven't really succeed in Europe yet.

The Tesla S needs a better chassis for those curvy non- Autobahn roads, it needs a better acceleration/performance in the speed range above 160 kph and the top speed should also be at least 260 kph in the top model, with little compromise on battery life (which would be difficult to achieve, I agree). 

I also think that their price is too high in Europe but they could compensate that through interesting lease offers. Right now however, I don't see that, at all.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

I rarely see on the Autobahn a Tesla driving more than 100-120 km/h . Usually they are in the right (or third) lane. I guess you need to plan carefully your average speed vs destination distance. It is an amazing car though.

Conrad2:

 

Starting to sound like a fanboy deep into the Kool Aid.  Drive one if you have the chance.

So much kool aid that you sound like a Tesla salesman 

I haven't driven one, not been tempted to try.

I will next time they come to Canary Wharf to form an opinion based not just on looks.

m4ever:

I rarely see on the Autobahn a Tesla driving more than 100-120 km/h . Usually they are in the right (or third) lane. I guess you need to plan carefully your average speed vs destination distance. It is an amazing car though.

 

True. Most Tesla S drivers seem to be calm, probably enjoying the tech inside the car more than the tech inside the car, if you get my point.  I can however imagine that if a Tesla S85d driver meets a Porsche or Ferrari driver at a red light... 

I wonder how good the Tesla AWD is in winter time, haven't seen any concise review yet. Any idea?

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

S85D was tested against RS7 in AZ few months ago. They claim that Audi AWD is far superior. Also, on the track RS7 was almost 10s (!!!) faster on their test track (Contidrom).

KresoF1:

S85D was tested against RS7 in AZ few months ago. They claim that Audi AWD is far superior. Also, on the track RS7 was almost 10s (!!!) faster on their test track (Contidrom).

I am not surprised about the track but I am curious how the Tesla would behave in snow or wintery conditions.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

OK , I don't have to be so circumspect now regarding Apple entering the electric car manufacturing and retail sales business like my posts up through even yesterday , but if the WSJ or public  thinks this is the real story ........good for secretive Apple and its " helpers " !

http://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-speeds-up-electric-car-work-1442857105

MKW:

OK , I don't have to be so circumspect now regarding Apple entering the electric car manufacturing and retail sales business like my posts up through even yesterday , but if the WSJ or public  thinks this is the real story ........good for secretive Apple and its " helpers " !

http://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-speeds-up-electric-car-work-1442857105

I have to admit that I love Apple products but I'm probably not someone who would buy their car but I am curious, seriously curious.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

MKW:

OK , I don't have to be so circumspect now regarding Apple entering the electric car manufacturing and retail sales business like my posts up through even yesterday , but if the WSJ or public  thinks this is the real story ........good for secretive Apple and its " helpers " !

http://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-speeds-up-electric-car-work-1442857105

I have to admit that I love Apple products but I'm probably not someone who would buy their car but I am curious, seriously curious.

you and 100s of millions throughout the world are part of the cult of Apple , the largest company in the world by stock market value for a reason and who  has 40 yrs of retail experience incl 15 yrs of bricks and mortars selling ....you can't create that overnight or with a few retail specialists ...it is built of over time , like nearly half a century for them  ...it is certainly not about  the bench testing of its product vs competition..... it is about the ownership / user experience and the social statement flashing their product signifies ...believe me, .they are not worried al all about finding enough buyers for the line of " cars " ...they are most worried about the overwhelming demand and not being able to offer one for everyone who wants one for the first few years and the resultant disgruntlement...it is not like a phone where they tell Asia to crank out an extra couple million next month  !

BTW, Apple design chief Jonny Ive believes that current Bentleys are  the most perfectly designed  cars  on the road ...inside and out .....from the standpoint of it being an instant statement to any casual passerby of where it sits in the pecking order . He is chauferred to work daily in his . He is taking an active lead on the cars' design...doing what he says he would have done instead if he had never worked at Apple . So don't expect eggs on wheels ! 

iPhones, iPads, MacBooks, nice products but not in the price range of an electric car, not even close, not even the new Macs, fully optioned. That said, I wouldn't be so sure that Apple lovers would pay serious money for a car from Apple. I do not love Apple because I am a fanboy or because I love their industrial design, I love Apple because I think they have the right products for me. An electric car would definitely not serve me, unless it is as fast as a Tesla S85d and costs under 50k EUR.  Joking aside, I think that an Apple car could be interesting but I also don't believe that it will sell that easy in the current car market.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

iPhones, iPads, MacBooks, nice products but not in the price range of an electric car, not even close, not even the new Macs, fully optioned. That said, I wouldn't be so sure that Apple lovers would pay serious money for a car from Apple. I do not love Apple because I am a fanboy or because I love their industrial design, I love Apple because I think they have the right products for me. An electric car would definitely not serve me, unless it is as fast as a Tesla S85d and costs under 50k EUR.  Joking aside, I think that an Apple car could be interesting but I also don't believe that it will sell that easy in the current car market.

we must remember that the couple dozen freq European posters on this board are the least representative group of eurozone car buyers you can pick ! 

like I said, they worry they will not be able to build enough of them , just for the US market alone , so you guys " over there " can just stay occupied internet racing the public whipping boy " distraction " , the  Tesla S ! 

Apple is not hiring  imbeciles , the bain of every established car company, even the " best " since they are all loaded with career first ass- kissers just moving up the leadership ladder who could care less about what they actually make as long as the next qtr results look good.

Apple knows exactly how their potential market customers will approach and view this product ...from librarians to the most gasoline - veined car crazies like  on this very type of board . They already know who their customers will and will not be across the buyer spectrum .

RC:

... I think that an Apple car could be interesting but I also don't believe that it will sell that easy in the current car market.

What if it were milled from a solid block of 9000 Series aluminium, with a 12 hour battery life and retina windshield?