Crown

bridggar:

Why is it only America clamps down on this stuff?? It's like the RoW assume it's acceptable?

America has way more cars on the road than anywhere else, and they have A LOT OF old cars still driving on the road that has no hope of meeting any kind of emission standard. And then there are the coal fire power plants spewing out a ton of pollution also. 

To make up for those, they apply a really strict standard to new cars to try and balance everything out.

RC:

spudgun:

If VW has to recall the 'cheat' cars, won't the fix cripple the performance of these engines?

I kind of have the feeling that US customers will get the right to give back their cars. I heard that VW is already calculating with more than 18 billion "damage", so...  Even if VW would "fix" these cars, software updates won't do the job I'm afraid, so more would be necessary.

The truth is: Diesel cars are dirty. Europeans hate to hear this because Diesel cars are very popular here due to the lower Diesel prices at the pump.

Also, take the new turbo models from various manufacturers: They consume less fuel in the test cycle ranges but drive the new 991.2 Carrera S at top speed on the Autobahn and I am pretty sure that you are going to see a higher fuel consumption than on current n/a cars. Just a guess though but cars from other manufacturers have actually confirmed this.

The diesel engines much better efficiency and economy over petrol engines is undisputed though. My Skoda DDx2 (Daily Drive and Dirty Diesel) ) achieves 60 mpg (4.7 l / 100km). No petrol engine could match that. Here in the UK diesel always used to be more expensive than petrol, now it's about the same price.

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Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

True but it is still unhealthier than petrol engines. We are not talking emissions regulations here but what affects the health of people, especially kids, directly and immediately.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Sad, but true - my DDD (daily driver diesel) car has a EURO 5 sticker, though in real life conditions, the emissions may not match the theory as stated with this sticker....
 

RC:

True but it is still unhealthier than petrol engines. We are not talking emissions regulations here but what affects the health of people, especially kids, directly and immediately.

You'll never end the use of diesels though. There is at present no viable alternative particularly for trucks etc. I would be very reluctant to almost double my fuel costs just to use petrol.

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Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

Btw: Today is the first day I am actually happy not to own any car stocks, especially Porsche (which I owned until 2014) and VW (which a friend working as an investment banker highly recommended, just lately ).

I highly doubt that Porsche cheated with emissions (even if I cannot exclude it), so maybe it is an opportunity today to get some "cheap" Porsche stock (not me though, don't have the capital right now).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

Btw: Today is the first day I am actually happy not to own any car stocks, especially Porsche (which I owned until 2014) and VW (which a friend working as an investment banker highly recommended, just lately ).

I highly doubt that Porsche cheated with emissions (even if I cannot exclude it), so maybe it is an opportunity today to get some "cheap" Porsche stock (not me though, don't have the capital right now).

You didn't read my earlier post in this same thread :
"For what it's worth, Porsche SE's main assets are now its shareholdings in the VW Group as a whole, not directly in the Porsche car manufacturer. Porsche SE's stock price would therefore fall pretty much in lock-step with the VW stock, regardless of any risk of contagion of the "problem" from VW brand engines to Porsche engines."

fritz

EPA fine per every report will be $20 billion and best guesses are the US consumer class action suit and penalties ( for diminished value as well as deception since US buyers paid MORE for the " helping the environment " turbo diesel  car ) could be in the same ballpark 

and dont think for a moment that the $ 40-50 billion dollars won't be impacting coming Porsche cars or Porsche R&D or Porsche factory racing budget for the next 10 yrs 

RC:

 

Just wait (I'm afraid...). The problem is that this could be a huge scandal throughout the car industry and similar to Syrian (or Egypt), you need to be careful what you wish for. If this scandal makes the rounds, it could really harm the whole car industry in a very very bad way. Not sure it is worth it because of some numbers, just saying. Yes, laws are laws but if tens of thousands lose their jobs, I don't know... 

Therein lies the crux of the problem: How do you penalize companies violating the law, egregiously, to the point where it doesn't pay as a business decision to do it, without putting them out of business and, as a consequence, thousands of workers out of jobs. I think the only way you can do this is to make such intentional violations criminal offenses. So, in addition to a painful, but not destructive, fine, the persons responsible, at the top of the organization (not the engineers who were ordered to implement it) go to jail for substantial felony terms. The company goes on with new leadership, the workers keep their jobs, and the CEO has a few years to reflect on his bad behavior and make license plates, while getting a few tats and becoming someone's bitch.

If there is an expectation that you can get away with "acceptable" fines, relative to profits gained, it becomes simply a business decision to break the law -- i.e., crime pays. Put those same executives in a position where, in addition, they personally may face serious prison time for the same decision, and they are likely to be much less inclined to take the risk.

MKW:

EPA fine will be $20 billion and guesses are the US consumer class action suit ( for diminished value as well as deception since US buyers paid MORE for the " helping the environment " turbo diesel  car ) will be at least that amt 

and dont think for a moment that the $ 40-50 billion dollars won't be impacting coming Porsche cars or Porsche R&D or Porsche factory racing budgets for the next 10 yrs 

I agree. It will be huge and the consequences could be disastrous .

 997.2 C2 ,  -20mm  I 964 Carrera 4 I 991 GT3 RS on order delivery ...soon !

Gnil:

MKW:

EPA fine will be $20 billion and guesses are the US consumer class action suit ( for diminished value as well as deception since US buyers paid MORE for the " helping the environment " turbo diesel  car ) will be at least that amt 

and dont think for a moment that the $ 40-50 billion dollars won't be impacting coming Porsche cars or Porsche R&D or Porsche factory racing budgets for the next 10 yrs 

I agree. It will be huge and the consequences could be disastrous .

to put that amt in perspective ....$40 billion  is not much below VWAG ' s " preferred  stock " market value of $60+billion last Friday, before falling 20% just today !

I can see Muller fighting tooth and nails with the board on which brand should pay the fines. Porsche mostly ran as a independent brand outside of the rest of the VAG group, and the problem came even before Porsche was bought out.

VW the brand is definitely in, Audi would be too and the rest of the brands as they are well integrated into the company. Cut out Audi's F1 inspiration, cut the Audi racing teams would be a start. 

Whoopsy:

I can see Muller fighting tooth and nails with the board on which brand should pay the fines. Porsche mostly ran as a independent brand outside of the rest of the VAG group, and the problem came even before Porsche was bought out.

VW the brand is definitely in, Audi would be too and the rest of the brands as they are well integrated into the company. Cut out Audi's F1 inspiration, cut the Audi racing teams would be a start. 

 

What difference does it make ...most of Porsche's cash cow cars are basically re engineered VW brands (  Panamera , Cayenne, Macan )  ...this will impact impact us Porsches consumers from trucksters to sports cars ...C suite machinations and finger pointing go on all the time there in good times or bad ..who cares among us ?

That has been part of the VWAG revolving door back stabbibg mgmt culture since I bought their first product in 1979 . 

Just don`t understand why it took EPA 6 years to find out ? It was a very well kept secret then. 

VGA have many many brands, tons of internal competing platforms under development. Cutting out excess fat as they say.

Do they need multiple brands racing against each other? Do they need multiple platforms for different cars and trucks?

Or engines for that matter? There are a lot of wasted resources, aka money and man power.

Each brand under the umbrella would protect their turf fiercely, so Muller staking the ground for Porsche and putting a leash on other brands would be prudent. 

Depending on how the lawsuit is shaping out, there is this un-ethnical but probably do-able option of isolating the VW brand and bankrupt it to avoid paying the whole fine. Especially if the affected cars are all VW branded and if the lawsuit names VW and not VAG in general.

Whoopsy:

I can see Muller fighting tooth and nails with the board on which brand should pay the fines. Porsche mostly ran as a independent brand outside of the rest of the VAG group, and the problem came even before Porsche was bought out.

VW the brand is definitely in, Audi would be too and the rest of the brands as they are well integrated into the company. Cut out Audi's F1 inspiration, cut the Audi racing teams would be a start. 

 

At the end VAG has to pay. However the consolidation rule affects they will have to pay. 

First cut I would do is the cut of the board-members salary and bonuses!

One way or the other this will cost a lot. It won't take the whole company down ("too big to fail" is not only for Wall Street firms) but it will have medium/long term consequences.

Also this will go all the way to Merkel/Obama. Last time the US tried to fine a french bank for $10bio it did. And the bank had to pay, so this is really looking bad for VW...

I really wonder what the "occupy Wall St" movement would say about this. In the end VW is acting even worse since they broke the law, something that most WS firms didn't do even if some of their behavior were risky and unethical.

Whoopsy:

I can see Muller fighting tooth and nails with the board on which brand should pay the fines. Porsche mostly ran as a independent brand outside of the rest of the VAG group, and the problem came even before Porsche was bought out.

VW the brand is definitely in, Audi would be too and the rest of the brands as they are well integrated into the company. Cut out Audi's F1 inspiration, cut the Audi racing teams would be a start. 

Could be relatively and retrospectively good news, for Porsche, that they lost their audacious bid to take-over VW...

"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."

The news just keeps on coming, and it only gets worse...

For nearly a year, Volkswagen officials told the Environmental Protection Agency that discrepancies between the formal air-quality tests on its diesel cars and the much higher pollution levels out on the road were the result of technical errors, not a deliberate attempt to deceive Washington officials. ...

... The E.P.A. disclosed the yearlong series of letters with Volkswagen as part of accusations it made against the company on Friday. ...

... The European Commission has contacted Volkswagen as well as the E.P.A. for details about the accusations, a commission spokeswoman said. ...

... South Korea also planned to test Volkswagen cars to make sure they were in compliance with pollution rules, according to news reports. ...

--- http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/business/international/volkswagen-shares-recall.html

MKW:

Gnil:

MKW:

EPA fine will be $20 billion and guesses are the US consumer class action suit ( for diminished value as well as deception since US buyers paid MORE for the " helping the environment " turbo diesel  car ) will be at least that amt 

and dont think for a moment that the $ 40-50 billion dollars won't be impacting coming Porsche cars or Porsche R&D or Porsche factory racing budgets for the next 10 yrs 

I agree. It will be huge and the consequences could be disastrous .

to put that amt in perspective ....$40 billion  is not much below VWAG ' s " preferred  stock " market value of $60+billion last Friday, before falling 20% just today !

That would be rather "over-the-top" when compared to GM's $900 million  fine for the "Ignition switch defect linked to 124 deaths":
www.theguardian.com/business/2015/sep/16/gm-close-settling-us-criminal-case-ignition-switches

fritz

One is a American company with American union jobs on the line, the other, well, is a foreign company competing against American companies for car sales. 

Bingo

I'm willing to bet members of Congress from Tennessee will be quite vocal about reducing the fine.  Toyota's fine was only 1.2 billion for their 'sudden acceleration' scandal.

I think it's unlikely the EPA will not settle for something around $1-2 Billion, American vs. Foreign jobs notwithstanding. But, there are likely to be a number of large fines globally, not to mention class action lawsuits, etc. A payout at the end between $5-10 Billion is, I think, a possibility. And that's not counting the reputational cost.

They will collect a huge fine then allow some more help for VW at the local level where they have operations...

Whoopsy:

One is a American company with American union jobs on the line, the other, well, is a foreign company competing against American companies for car sales. 

You cynic!   

That thought had naturally also occurred to me as well, being a fully paid-up member of the Cynic Society. 

fritz

Haha, don't forget this is election time, who wouldn't want to grab some cheap brownie points, fly the patriotic flag, 'protect' union jobs, etc. 

Plus, the American government is flat broke, so any billions helps. 

Most of the vw models impacted were built in the vw plant in puebla mexico, as most usa models are built there except for the passat, treg and golf R. likely those workers will lose the most, or they can get jobs at the numerous dodge gm fiat chrysler ford and rheir supplier factories in mexico.

Do they sell those cars throughout the Americas? No TDI cars for 2016 in the US, so, if that's the primary market, they are likely to be out of work, for a while, at least.

A few commentators here and there think this means that diesel is dead for the US, and some noted that emissions restrictions in the EU would likely kill it off there too in not too long. (Does that seem likely?)

This will be the ironic case of American justice.

GM's ignition switch faults actually killed people, Toyota's death pedal also killed people, but both got off light.

VW's emission is a harmless infraction but they will be penalized greatly. 

USA is such a screwed up country.