Crown

So cool. From air cooling to water cooling on to... What do you even call it? 

Will the GT3 be the last gasoline engine car in the end?  2025 GT3 with a 1.5 liter twin electric turbo engine with ground effects active wings and computer assisted steering and brakes as well as GPS based suspension and fuel management. 

Times of change, we are leaving history here, crucial move for Porsche and the beginning of a new era.

J.Seven

Leawood911:

So cool. From air cooling to water cooling on to... What do you even call it? 

Will the GT3 be the last gasoline engine car in the end?  2025 GT3 with a 1.5 liter twin electric turbo engine with ground effects active wings and computer assisted steering and brakes as well as GPS based suspension and fuel management. 

One has thought about the very same issues, especially in light of the Volkswagen emissions scandal.  More stringent carbon dioxide limits go into effect in the EU starting in 2020 and in the States, several years later.  Even plug-in hybrids, which the automakers have heavily invested in developing, do not meet the standards and could, under the Volkswagen plight, can be viewed by the regulatory agencies as "cheater devices" since the vehicles will not meet the CO2 limits once the ICE is engaged.  

CGX car nut:

Leawood911:

So cool. From air cooling to water cooling on to... What do you even call it? 

Will the GT3 be the last gasoline engine car in the end?  2025 GT3 with a 1.5 liter twin electric turbo engine with ground effects active wings and computer assisted steering and brakes as well as GPS based suspension and fuel management. 

One has thought about the very same issues, especially in light of the Volkswagen emissions scandal.  More stringent carbon dioxide limits go into effect in the EU starting in 2020 and in the States, several years later.  Even plug-in hybrids, which the automakers have heavily invested in developing, do not meet the standards and could, under the Volkswagen plight, can be viewed by the regulatory agencies as "cheater devices" since the vehicles will not meet the CO2 limits once the ICE is engaged.  

One could say the same for eco-turbo equipped cars now, but their use is widespread across the industry and regulatory agencies have apparently determined to turn a blind eye.

apias:

CGX car nut:

Leawood911:

So cool. From air cooling to water cooling on to... What do you even call it? 

Will the GT3 be the last gasoline engine car in the end?  2025 GT3 with a 1.5 liter twin electric turbo engine with ground effects active wings and computer assisted steering and brakes as well as GPS based suspension and fuel management. 

One has thought about the very same issues, especially in light of the Volkswagen emissions scandal.  More stringent carbon dioxide limits go into effect in the EU starting in 2020 and in the States, several years later.  Even plug-in hybrids, which the automakers have heavily invested in developing, do not meet the standards and could, under the Volkswagen plight, can be viewed by the regulatory agencies as "cheater devices" since the vehicles will not meet the CO2 limits once the ICE is engaged.  

One could say the same for eco-turbo equipped cars now, but their use is widespread across the industry and regulatory agencies have apparently determined to turn a blind eye.

That's starting to change - follow the Volkswagen story.

Do you really think they're going to take down the entire world wide auto industry by declaring turbos a "defeat device"? I don't.

apias:

Do you really think they're going to take down the entire world wide auto industry by declaring turbos a "defeat device"? I don't.

The average fleet level of carbon dioxide emission starting in 2021 will be 95 grams per kilometer which is 4.1l/100km or  57.37 mpg!   Now factor in the real world emission tests standards which would be enacted by that time and once the ICE starts up, that 95 gm/km is very, very difficult to meet.

A much welcomed green light on my end. I love that Porsche is very on top of the developments in the industry and why not offer an EV sedan. cant be worse than Cayenne 1.0. This thing will be sporty and futuristic and provide competition to Tesla and Mercedes who will soon also join the EV market with serious models.. 

1991 BMW 535i Granitsilber/White Leather

Ex: '91 BMW 318i, '89 BMW 525i, '74 Mercedes-Benz 280E, '87 BMW 325is, '86 BMW 325e, '05 Ford Focus ZX4 S, '85.5 Porsche 944

I love the design much better than the fact of going electrical. The car is a beauty! Good news!

2020 can't come soon enough for this car. They need to accelerate the timeline. They need a new benchmark product in more like 2017. 

My money is waiting to buy my mission E!

2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2014 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab 2014 BMW i3 2017 Porsche Mission E on order

Glad this is going forward.  I was at the Frankfurt Show when the car was unveiled and not particularly impressed with the prototype.  It seemed 'half-baked" and rushed to the public--a design concept rather than an engineering and design concept.  Now i am relieved and impressed.

Let's not forget that this initiative by Porsche is both an automotive and infrastructure commitment.  To mention just one   infrastructure commitment, Porsche will now have to create a charging station infrastructure--a major challenge now for Tesla, for example.  How will Porsche approach this--through its dealers, through new corporate partnerships?  How will those charging facilities be staffed and maintained?  To add some perspective, Tesla now has 500 charging stations worldwide, with over 2800 chargers at those stations.  Going to be interesting, Porsche….

From my perspective I have to ask: How many fuel stations does Porsche currently operate?

Such a nice design! It's truly Porsche yet very modern and sexy.. I see a lot of form-follows-function in it too 

1991 BMW 535i Granitsilber/White Leather

Ex: '91 BMW 318i, '89 BMW 525i, '74 Mercedes-Benz 280E, '87 BMW 325is, '86 BMW 325e, '05 Ford Focus ZX4 S, '85.5 Porsche 944

The Mission E blends very well the 918 styling into a 911 and the Cayman. 918 front 911 middle Cayman rear.

I hope it remains very true to the concept shown in final form 

1991 BMW 535i Granitsilber/White Leather

Ex: '91 BMW 318i, '89 BMW 525i, '74 Mercedes-Benz 280E, '87 BMW 325is, '86 BMW 325e, '05 Ford Focus ZX4 S, '85.5 Porsche 944

A couple of thoughts:

1. The Mission E is coming, yes but not in the same design as the prototype. There will be changes and adaptations, the final car will be more "common", think modern Panamera style. Actually, I am not even sure Porsche will actually make a Mission E, I kind of have the feeling that the Mission E will be a next generation smaller (or not) Panamera E. 

2. A Mission E with the tech and performance everyone expects from Porsche will cost at least 150k EUR and I think this number is even conservative. Lots of dough for an electric car in my opinion.

3. 2019 or 2020 is way too late in my opinion. In 4-5 years (from now), Tesla will be lightyears ahead, sorry to say that. Also, the competition won't sleep, BMW already started with their "i" models and I am sure others will follow. Same goes to Mercedes and other larger brands.

4. For Europe, the Mission E will not be really very interesting (for now). For the US, it may be a nice product but Tesla isn't sleeping and if their top model is faster than the Mission E and cheaper, Porsche could come under serious pressure. Also, the entertainment tech in the Tesla S is hard to beat, same goes to the software updates capability and similar stuff. For legal reasons, I doubt that Porsche will offer such an innovative feature, I also think that the dealers would oppose that. Bottom line is: I do not see how any car manufacturer can actually bear Tesla right now, they are too far ahead with their tech in my opinion. 

5. In the US, the new Apple car could rough up the whole electric car market in the US. To be blunt, I doubt that Apple is going to build a small and affordable electric car, I rather think mid sized and quite exclusive and expensive. They need a certain gain margin and I doubt they could sell a BWM i3 knock-off with a more pleasing body for a premium price. I also doubt they would directly compete with Tesla, so they probably have something different in mind. On the other hand, such an electric car could also be a push for other manufacturers, who knows?.

Long story short: Porsche is a bit late to the game and I don't really think that they know what they are getting into. 

Maybe the Mission E will be Porsche's way to lower fleet CO2 or whatever, I don't have a clue. Fact is: In less than five years, Porsche needs to dramatically lower the CO2 output of their cars or find another solution to do that. I'm afraid we are going to see a lot of things happen we don't really like. I know that car manufacturers think they can use hybrid tech and whatnot to lower CO2 output but since the EU wants to introduce new (real life!) testing procedures, the tricks using hybrid tech or similar to lower CO2 at certain (testing) speeds and (testing) conditions may not really work this time. And many engineers seem to know that. Tough times ahead for the car industry.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC, interesting thoughts!  On the whole I agree with your points 1-3 and 5 but would differ on key aspects of point 4.

The reason is I am not so sure that Tesla's technology is all that innovative or advanced. This applies to the key elements of their EV offering, namely battery technology and e-motors. Away from that, and with the execption of the cool touchscreen/entertainment tech etc., there is really nothing exceptional about the Tesla S, least of all the conventional bits including the chassis. 

It goes without saying that Tesla will improve further over the next 3-5 years, but they will have to in order to be able to compete with projects such as the production version of Mission E, with its advanced battery, high-volteage recharging and e-engine tech.

Development of all this stuff will require immense amounts of funding and it will remain to be seen if Tesla can secure this funding on an ongoing basis.

RC:

A couple of thoughts:

1. The Mission E is coming, yes but not in the same design as the prototype. There will be changes and adaptations, the final car will be more "common", think modern Panamera style. Actually, I am not even sure Porsche will actually make a Mission E, I kind of have the feeling that the Mission E will be a next generation smaller (or not) Panamera E. 

Didn´t I post this information a year ago? A prototype have different goals to achieve, the final product looks everytime different. We can hope that it is not so much different

2. A Mission E with the tech and performance everyone expects from Porsche will cost at least 150k EUR and I think this number is even conservative. Lots of dough for an electric car in my opinion.

An all electrical car is much cheaper then a gasoline car (Less combustion and moving parts). The only thing we have here is the battery pack which is expensive. But from year to year it will be cheaper.

3. 2019 or 2020 is way too late in my opinion. In 4-5 years (from now), Tesla will be lightyears ahead, sorry to say that. Also, the competition won't sleep, BMW already started with their "i" models and I am sure others will follow. Same goes to Mercedes and other larger brands.

It is never to late. Better to start now then in 5 years. I don´t beleive that Tesla will be to far away. The suppliers are the same. Porsche is very successful in managing the suppliers.  Think that the all VW brands can invest in this technology and adapt it later.

4. For Europe, the Mission E will not be really very interesting (for now). For the US, it may be a nice product but Tesla isn't sleeping and if their top model is faster than the Mission E and cheaper, Porsche could come under serious pressure. Also, the entertainment tech in the Tesla S is hard to beat, same goes to the software updates capability and similar stuff. For legal reasons, I doubt that Porsche will offer such an innovative feature, I also think that the dealers would oppose that. Bottom line is: I do not see how any car manufacturer can actually bear Tesla right now, they are too far ahead with their tech in my opinion. 

Do you really think that this ridiculous acceleration of Tesla is USP? Who cares about? Some teenager?
The entertainment tech is not so complicated - it is software - you can do everything.
If Tesla can update why Porsche could not? Same legal for all, or not? The same applies to the new MB E class which drives nearly autonomous. 

5. In the US, the new Apple car could rough up the whole electric car market in the US. To be blunt, I doubt that Apple is going to build a small and affordable electric car, I rather think mid sized and quite exclusive and expensive. They need a certain gain margin and I doubt they could sell a BWM i3 knock-off with a more pleasing body for a premium price. I also doubt they would directly compete with Tesla, so they probably have something different in mind. On the other hand, such an electric car could also be a push for other manufacturers, who knows?.

Long story short: Porsche is a bit late to the game and I don't really think that they know what they are getting into. 

I think they know a lot of what they are doing. They have a lot of smart brains on board.

Maybe the Mission E will be Porsche's way to lower fleet CO2 or whatever, I don't have a clue. Fact is: In less than five years, Porsche needs to dramatically lower the CO2 output of their cars or find another solution to do that. I'm afraid we are going to see a lot of things happen we don't really like. I know that car manufacturers think they can use hybrid tech and whatnot to lower CO2 output but since the EU wants to introduce new (real life!) testing procedures, the tricks using hybrid tech or similar to lower CO2 at certain (testing) speeds and (testing) conditions may not really work this time. And many engineers seem to know that. Tough times ahead for the car industry.

That is right, from now less cheating. Could also mean higher price.

--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

 

AM

The perfect accessory for your new Porsche Mission E......

wrt "Porsche is a litte bit late" :

Do we see the delution of a brand here?
Who wants to drive a Porsche with lacking emotions?
...and will Porsche then going the Blackberry / Nokia route?
 

All good points and discussion.  I have confidence in Porsche.  From the beginning, Porsche has entered existing segments seemingly far behind.  In the 1950s, think about the domination of Ferrari, MG, Jaguar, even Corvette.  Think about 1976 with turbo innovation in a world of high hp muscle cars.  Think Mazda in the small convertible market in the late 1980s and 90s; the domination of family SUVs in the late 1990s and early 2000s.  Think about the competition from Aston, BMW, Mercedes in the luxury sedan market in the early 2000s.  In each case Porsche has entered successfully with the 356, 911, Boxster, Cayenne, and Panamera.  Porsche knows their niche well and will enter the "Tesla market" emphasizing sporting dynamics, performance and race bred engineering.

Another challenge for sure, but a history of success...

I am sure it will feel and drive like a Porsche should. It will def accelerate like a 991 Turbo. Haven't Porsche gone on record that the final product will be v close to the concept just like the 918 was. This is a very important product for Porsche and VW. Just from a co2 perspective. 

2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2014 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab 2014 BMW i3 2017 Porsche Mission E on order

Based on Porsche's track record, they don't do many concept cars and those can comes to market are pretty much spot on with the concepts.

It will be the true sports car of the EV market when it comes to showrooms. In true Porsche fashion, not brand dilution IMO.. that was the Cayenne, Macan and Panamera... 

1991 BMW 535i Granitsilber/White Leather

Ex: '91 BMW 318i, '89 BMW 525i, '74 Mercedes-Benz 280E, '87 BMW 325is, '86 BMW 325e, '05 Ford Focus ZX4 S, '85.5 Porsche 944

Atzporsche:

It will be the true sports car of the EV market when it comes to showrooms. In true Porsche fashion, not brand dilution IMO.. that was the Cayenne, Macan and Panamera... 

I'm sorry but the J1 will be a 4-door Panamera in small. Maybe J1 will be the most sportiest 4-door EV.

AM

I don't think we can call the Mission E a sportscar, it will weigh more than the moon.

spudgun:

I don't think we can call the Mission E a sportscar, it will weigh more than the moon.

Porsche calls a Cayenne a SPORTSCAR 

AM

ALDO:

spudgun:

I don't think we can call the Mission E a sportscar, it will weigh more than the moon.

Porsche calls a Cayenne a SPORTSCAR 

 

They do? 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

ALDO:

spudgun:

I don't think we can call the Mission E a sportscar, it will weigh more than the moon.

Porsche calls a Cayenne a SPORTSCAR 

 

They do? 

The last time I have watched some marketing videos they said something like a "real sportscar" - in any case they claim much more sportscar than it is in either Cayenne, Macan or Panamera.

AM