Crown

Back OT...

So, 991.2 will come with turbos and 2 years later the 992 will come with hybrid technology, no turbos. Is this economically viable ? What I mean is, developping a turbo engine for only a 2 years life span and then introduce something drastically new.

Porsche 911 GT3 - Guards Red 997 MKII Clubsport

Gauss:

So, 991.2 will come with turbos and 2 years later the 992 will come with hybrid technology, no turbos. Is this economically viable ? What I mean is, developping a turbo engine for only a 2 years life span and then introduce something drastically new.

If you belive to car press info Porsche is very stupid company that developed a new turbo boxer engines that will be used for only 3 production years. 

No future in electrical turbocharging etc. All models will be build a la 918 if you belive in car press info. 

It's all just false rumours then. It didn't make much sense to me. If sales are anything to go by, they show that Porsche is everything else but stupid.
--

Porsche 911 GT3 - Guards Red 997 MKII Clubsport

Whoopsy:

Chicken and Egg.

Stations will only appear if there are more cars, and there will be more cars if there are more stations.

Elon is doing both together. Admire his resolve. 

Hybrid has the upper edge as they can go into regular gas stations AND electric charging stations, with such flexibility, they are hard to beat in the market place and very likely they will be the mainstream for a long time.

Back to hybrids, etc.

Whoopsy has it exactly right.  There is no H2 infrastructure in place to provide any sort of fueling system for fuel cells.  Battery EV's, plug-in electro hybrids, etc., already have a modern, flexible, and omni-present supply infrastructure that requires only modest tweaking to fill the bill. H2-power doesn't stand a chance in realistic economics.

To the fuel cell fan boys I repeat the age old military aphorism, "Amateurs talk tactics.  Professionals talk logistics."

Mike

Carrera GT + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T + GT3 RS 4.0

Apple has quietly hired away many  of the top automotive battery , propulsion, autodriving, chassis , full electric car talent from the very BIGGEST car companies plus Tesla and defunct electric car battery maker A123 .

They bank more free cash per quarter than all the world's car companies' R&D budgets combined .

If you are a young brght ambitious automotive engr on the cusp of a transportation revolution , do you want to be burrowed into an obscure cubical and vesting GM or Nissan or VWAG stock ....or working with a huge research budget at your disposal at the most valuable company in the world and vesting its  stock over the next 10 yrs . 

Gee ,  I wonder what they are up to ? 

Apple should just buy Tesla...

2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2014 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab

I laughed heartily when I read the following article on the record breaking across the United States trip in a Tesla Model S.  http://jalopnik.com/they-drove-a-tesla-from-la-to-new-york-in-a-record-58-h-1699782187 

Notice that the Tesla drafted behind the large Chevrolet Suburban and that the Suburban only needed fuel only every three to four charging stops for the Tesla.  Total time the Tesla sat on the charger was 12 hours and 48 minutes of the total 58 hours and 55 minutes needed to travel from Los Angeles to New York.  This only proves that the Suburban is a superior long range vehicle when compared with the Tesla as the travel time is significantly less, saving roughly half a day of travel time.

The problem is the power density of the batteries and this is a problem of chemistry with correspondingly slow rates of overall improvement; battery development does not follow Moore's Law.

MKW:

Apple has quietly hired away many  of the top automotive battery , propulsion, autodriving, chassis , full electric car talent from the very BIGGEST car companies plus Tesla and defunct electric car battery maker A123 .

They bank more free cash per quarter than all the world's car companies' R&D budgets combined .

If you are a young brght ambitious automotive engr on the cusp of a transportation revolution , do you want to be burrowed into an obscure cubical and vesting GM or Nissan or VWAG stock ....or working with a huge research budget at your disposal at the most valuable company in the world and vesting its  stock over the next 10 yrs . 

Gee ,  I wonder what they are up to ?

They could be working on any number of things related to cars, and they certainly have a strong interest in battery technology. Obviously, they have a foot in the water already with CarPlay as well. However, I would be extremely surprised were Apple to actually produce a car themselves.

apias:

MKW:

Apple has quietly hired away many  of the top automotive battery , propulsion, autodriving, chassis , full electric car talent from the very BIGGEST car companies plus Tesla and defunct electric car battery maker A123 .

They bank more free cash per quarter than all the world's car companies' R&D budgets combined .

If you are a young brght ambitious automotive engr on the cusp of a transportation revolution , do you want to be burrowed into an obscure cubical and vesting GM or Nissan or VWAG stock ....or working with a huge research budget at your disposal at the most valuable company in the world and vesting its  stock over the next 10 yrs . 

Gee ,  I wonder what they are up to ?

They could be working on any number of things related to cars, and they certainly have a strong interest in battery technology. Obviously, they have a foot in the water already with CarPlay as well. However, I would be extremely surprised were Apple to actually produce a car themselves.

people are getting conditioned to Uber type services ...the real future goes the next step where autonomous driverless vehicles owned by for - profit  companies will run around the clock , summoned by whatever passes for a present day " app " ,   taking riders to store, hospital , church....long distances to vacation or to see grandkids ...you name it ....I suspect many of us here are in our 30s to 60s and we or our aging parents will prob be the first generation of  heavy utilizers of this transport model in a couple decades when Alzheimers , eyesight diminution, arthritis, inevitably strikes 

I can easily envision Apple leading the way for producing these types of transport vehicles in all shapes and sizes , whether for personal or , more likely, massive fleet use...with software, connectivity, entertainment all rolled together lucratively...after all, the less time spent driving , the more time spent spending money online

and unlike Google, they have extensive in house  retailing experience 

they will not need to be sold as status statements from performance or design standpoints like present expensive luxury cars, so fits their product ethos perfectly 

CGX car nut:

This only proves that the Suburban is a superior long range vehicle when compared with the Tesla as the travel time is significantly less, saving roughly half a day of travel time.

The problem is the power density of the batteries and this is a problem of chemistry with correspondingly slow rates of overall improvement; battery development does not follow Moore's Law.

You're right about the superior energy density of fossil fuels. On the other hand I'm sure you will agree that there are drawbacks to fossil fuels as well. A pretty good blog post about that is  http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/06/how-tesla-will-change-your-life.html

As long as we're a species living on one planet we should probably recognize its limits even if it means a few more stops along the way and loosing the wonderful exhaust noise of high revving performance engines.

I am all for choices. 

Every freeway should be 3 lanes, 2 lanes for 'normal' regular cars, one lane for autonomous, buses, trucks, etc. 

Actually, make all buses and trucks autonomous too. Everything in that lane can travel at a set speed.

So people who choose to drive themselves can drive on 2 lanes while the autonomous crowd can travel as one group 'train'. 

Let gas engine live, while letting electric cars thrive. People who are self conscious can choose to drive their electric car and think they are helping the environment, while people driving gas cars can use up the 'spare' carbon credit the EV users left behind. Nothing is wasted. 

So if my neighbourhood is full of EV cars, then I can feel good driving a quad V12 car doing 1/3 mile per gallon and I won't even feel guilty.

Is that selfish? Absolutely not. The EV hugging people are the selfish and self centered ones. They think just because they choose to go 'green' everyone else should give up their choices and join them. 

MKW:

Apple has quietly hired away many  of the top automotive battery , propulsion, autodriving, chassis , full electric car talent from the very BIGGEST car companies plus Tesla and defunct electric car battery maker A123 .

They bank more free cash per quarter than all the world's car companies' R&D budgets combined .

If you are a young brght ambitious automotive engr on the cusp of a transportation revolution , do you want to be burrowed into an obscure cubical and vesting GM or Nissan or VWAG stock ....or working with a huge research budget at your disposal at the most valuable company in the world and vesting its  stock over the next 10 yrs . 

Gee ,  I wonder what they are up to ? 

 

Definitely not a car. Why buy your way into a super low margin, capital intensive business when you can buy into super high margin, low capital ones? This would be the worst financial move they could make considering how many vastly better options there are. Even if we are entering a revolutionary era as far as transportation goes, it doesn't mean it's more lucrative than dull, slow and steady business. 

Tech companies don't want to build cars, they want to license technology to the companies that already make cars and integrate their products with them as well.

Well... This is my very personal opinion. I am not against off topic posts but, this is way too much IMHO.

This is thread about 991.2 and future Porsche models. NOT about Tesla and Suburban or some other piece of crap. You guys fucked up this thread big time. What's next? Discussion about hybrid tech in city public transportation?

You could start new thread about electric/hybrid tech and discuss it there till end of time...

Hahaha. I didn't even realize what thread this was. Just read the last posts and assumed it was the correct thread.

EnglishManInNY:

Apple should just buy Tesla...

Maybe they are going to do this when Elon Musk gets bored of Tesla and Tesla gets in financial trouble? 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Whoopsy:

SciFrog:

Not if you consider all the 991 variants, the fact that a turbo is double the price of a base 991 and that most people think that the turbo is now too expensive vs the rest of the market...

 

Oh, Porsche knows about the high price of their 991 and variants.

There are quite a few dealer principals with us at Le Mans and we are constantly bitching to the execs about the unreasonably high price hike on the 991s.

Yes, Porsche knows.

Instead of lowering prices or offering more standard options though, they plan to raise quality perception by introducing innovative designs, features and of course the long awaited new interior for the 911 (992?). I'm not so sure this is the right strategy. The cars are already very expensive and I have to admit that, although I am a diehard Porsche lover, I am ALWAYS looking at the competition too. Now if the competition succeeds in offering similar performance at better prices, I am very tempted. I have to say that the competition has never been that strong and I hope Porsche is aware of it. Once the customers start switching, there won't be any coming back.

Example: Cayenne Turbo S. A SUV for almost 190k (with options)? Seriously?

Even my 991 C4 GTS Cab, I consider to be overpriced. 162k EUR? I "feel" it would be worth around 135k maybe. At max. 

With the 992, Porsche will introduce a new engine generation for the 911 Turbo/Turbo S. I kind of suspect that this engine generation will also be used for the upcoming 960/988 or whatever.

I will always have a Porsche in my garage, I am pretty sure about it but if Porsche would be more careful with the pricing, I bet they could sell even more cars. The best gain margin in the car industry isn't helpful if it prevents more and more customers from actually buying the product. At some point, Porsche will start to loose customers.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

 

I will always have a Porsche in my garage, I am pretty sure about it but if Porsche would be more careful with the pricing, I bet they could sell even more cars. The best gain margin in the car industry isn't helpful if it prevents more and more customers from actually buying the product. At some point, Porsche will start to loose customers.

This has been a recurring theme on here ever since I joined the forum, but the fact is that Porsche once again increased its sales figures in 2014, both overall and of just its "classic" sports car models, and looks likely to do that again in 2015.

How do you rationally argue against success?

fritz

fritz:

RC:

 

I will always have a Porsche in my garage, I am pretty sure about it but if Porsche would be more careful with the pricing, I bet they could sell even more cars. The best gain margin in the car industry isn't helpful if it prevents more and more customers from actually buying the product. At some point, Porsche will start to loose customers.

This has been a recurring theme on here ever since I joined the forum, but the fact is that Porsche once again increased its sales figures in 2014, both overall and of just its "classic" sports car models, and looks likely to do that again in 2015.

How do you rationally argue against success?

1. I think they could sell even more cars with slightly lower prices

2. I think the competition isn't still capable of really hurting Porsche but they are learning (AMG's attempt with the GT is ridiculous though)

3. There are no alternatives for certain customers (like business customers in Germany for example or people who do not want an exotic look and/or need the back seats, etc.)

In my opinion, Porsche has been lucky so far. At some point, one or more competitors will hit the nail with their product(s) and Porsche could be in serious trouble (again).

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

KresoF1:

Well... This is my very personal opinion. I am not against off topic posts but, this is way too much IMHO.

This is thread about 991.2 and future Porsche models. NOT about Tesla and Suburban or some other piece of crap. You guys fucked up this thread big time. What's next? Discussion about hybrid tech in city public transportation?

You could start new thread about electric/hybrid tech and discuss it there till end of time...

I did open a thread called "Tesla and such tech".  Let's go there and discuss the 991.2

RC:

EnglishManInNY:

Apple should just buy Tesla...

Maybe they are going to do this when Elon Musk gets bored of Tesla and Tesla gets in financial trouble? 

Nah, that's when Microsoft will buy them. Right now, at their peak value (roughly speaking), is when Google would buy them. The time for Apple to buy them has long since passed.

Gladstone:

KresoF1:

Well... This is my very personal opinion. I am not against off topic posts but, this is way too much IMHO.

This is thread about 991.2 and future Porsche models. NOT about Tesla and Suburban or some other piece of crap. You guys fucked up this thread big time. What's next? Discussion about hybrid tech in city public transportation?

You could start new thread about electric/hybrid tech and discuss it there till end of time...

I did open a thread called "Tesla and such tech".  Let's go there and discuss the 991.2

Or we can discuss XXX subject here as well?

Apparently we have here on rennteam lot of Tesla and Suburban devotees.

Well, technically, we only need 2 threads here on Rennteam: Sun's Last Run, and a thread for everything else.

fritz:

RC:

 

I will always have a Porsche in my garage, I am pretty sure about it but if Porsche would be more careful with the pricing, I bet they could sell even more cars. The best gain margin in the car industry isn't helpful if it prevents more and more customers from actually buying the product. At some point, Porsche will start to loose customers.

This has been a recurring theme on here ever since I joined the forum, but the fact is that Porsche once again increased its sales figures in 2014, both overall and of just its "classic" sports car models, and looks likely to do that again in 2015.

How do you rationally argue against success?

How much are US/EU sales increasing in the 911 segment? Easy to see sales increase when you have China included in the figures over the last decade.

apias:

Well, technically, we only need 2 threads here on Rennteam: Sun's Last Run, and a thread for everything else.

hahahahah

997TT RS Tuning stage II(sold),2011 Cayenne Turbo(sold),waiting 991 GT3 RS

apias:

Well, technically, we only need 2 threads here on Rennteam: Sun's Last Run, and a thread for everything else.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

KresoF1:

Well... This is my very personal opinion. I am not against off topic posts but, this is way too much IMHO.

This is thread about 991.2 and future Porsche models. NOT about Tesla and Suburban or some other piece of crap. You guys fucked up this thread big time. What's next? Discussion about hybrid tech in city public transportation?

You could start new thread about electric/hybrid tech and discuss it there till end of time...

Seems to be common trait around here. I had a couple of guys go bananas over cameras ans camera lenses in a 24h Le Mans thread. Go figure!

noone1:

MKW:

Apple has quietly hired away many  of the top automotive battery , propulsion, autodriving, chassis , full electric car talent from the very BIGGEST car companies plus Tesla and defunct electric car battery maker A123 .

They bank more free cash per quarter than all the world's car companies' R&D budgets combined .

If you are a young brght ambitious automotive engr on the cusp of a transportation revolution , do you want to be burrowed into an obscure cubical and vesting GM or Nissan or VWAG stock ....or working with a huge research budget at your disposal at the most valuable company in the world and vesting its  stock over the next 10 yrs . 

Gee ,  I wonder what they are up to ? 

 

 

Definitely not a car. Why buy your way into a super low margin, capital intensive business when you can buy into super high margin, low capital ones? This would be the worst financial move they could make considering how many vastly better options there are. Even if we are entering a revolutionary era as far as transportation goes, it doesn't mean it's more lucrative than dull, slow and steady business. 

 

your line of conventional " logical " thinking from a financial markets standpoint is exactly what certain very secretive companies  want from public and analysts ..for now 

looking down the road of the next two decades, several tech giants want to hold the keys to the doorways of the " internet of everything " from your pantry to cargo ships ...it will be interesting how this unfolds 

ok, back on topic to the 991.2 ....

MKW:

... looking down the road of the next two decades, several tech giants want to hold the keys to the doorways of the " internet of everything " from your pantry to cargo ships ...

This is true, but I don't think Apple is one of these companies, at least not in the way I think you mean. While I think Apple wants to be in your car, I don't think they want to be your car. This is similar to the situation with televisions where they looked at the market and decided to pass on producing the actual TV screen. Instead, their strategy is Apple TV, which connects to your television, any television, and the Internet, and can become your experience of television, yet isn't tied to the actual television, nor are they tied to the actual television's low margins.

Spyderidol:

KresoF1:

Well... This is my very personal opinion. I am not against off topic posts but, this is way too much IMHO.

This is thread about 991.2 and future Porsche models. NOT about Tesla and Suburban or some other piece of crap. You guys fucked up this thread big time. What's next? Discussion about hybrid tech in city public transportation?

You could start new thread about electric/hybrid tech and discuss it there till end of time...

Seems to be common trait around here. I had a couple of guys go bananas over cameras ans camera lenses in a 24h Le Mans thread. Go figure!

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White