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    997 Turbo S, 997 GT2 and Tuning the 997tt

    Information from a reliable source is that the VV turbos will not be as easy to tune as (certainly I) assumed. The VVT turbos which KKK have developed with Porsche are basically the biggest they have made to date and the thermal limits are critical. Whilst bolting a K24 compressor wheel on the compressor side will be an obvious next stage for a Tuner, the ultimate level of power will be determined by the maximum flow the hot side can produce. There are no "bolt on" hot sides which Tuners can play with (unlike currently where say a K24/26/27 etc can be mixed and matched) and it is unlikely that KKK will or can (because of technical issues) develop bigger units to satisfy the limited demand of the Tuners. The other issue is the fact that the VVTs have no wastegates, the boost is controlled solely by the ECU altering the pitch of the vanes, this introduces all sorts of problems when trying to extract more power.
    Expect a maximum of 550hp From the current turbos (with K24 compressor)but with superb area under the curve.
    Expect KKK to develop one more VVT for the upcoming Turbo S which should make 510 to 520hp. Bets are that there will NOT be a GT2 because unlike the 996tt it is not a simple matter to do away with the four wheel drive system and it is unlikely that Porsche will invest in making a bespoke 2WD system baring in mind the lacklustre performance (in sales terms) of the old GT2.
    DSG not until 2009 ?

    Re: 997 Turbo S, 997 GT2 and Tuning the 997tt

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Information from a reliable source is that the VV turbos will not be as easy to tune as (certainly I) assumed. The VVT turbos which KKK have developed with Porsche are basically the biggest they have made to date and the thermal limits are critical. Whilst bolting a K24 compressor wheel on the compressor side will be an obvious next stage for a Tuner, the ultimate level of power will be determined by the maximum flow the hot side can produce. There are no "bolt on" hot sides which Tuners can play with (unlike currently where say a K24/26/27 etc can be mixed and matched) and it is unlikely that KKK will or can (because of technical issues) develop bigger units to satisfy the limited demand of the Tuners. The other issue is the fact that the VVTs have no wastegates, the boost is controlled solely by the ECU altering the pitch of the vanes, this introduces all sorts of problems when trying to extract more power.
    Expect a maximum of 550hp From the current turbos (with K24 compressor)but with superb area under the curve.
    Expect KKK to develop one more VVT for the upcoming Turbo S which should make 510 to 520hp.



    Maybe is for this reason that the powerkit will not be retrofittable on the standard 997 TT??
    to have more power you must change Turbos with new ones?


    Re: 997 Turbo S, 997 GT2 and Tuning the 997tt

    I'm still not sure that the powerkit version and/or the S version require new turbo chargers but it may be possible.
    The VTG technology is very new in the high performance car segment and I doubt that tuners will be able to find reasonably priced and at the same time reliable power upgrade solutions involving hardware modifications. That said, I think we're going to see lots of exhaust, airbox and engine software mapping mods but not many engine hardware mods, if any. I also suspect that some Tuners may want to use a trick and actually install a tuned version of the "old" engine with impressive power figures to find customers for their products. I can only tell people to be aware that the main advantage of the new 997 Turbo is actually the VTG technology in a perfect combination with the new electronically controlled AWD and PASM system.
    The new 997 Turbo beats all tuned 996 Turbo with claimed power figures in the 520-540 HP range, so you can imagine that this isn't about power only.

    I would definetely recommend to wait with ANY type of tuning of the 997 Turbo for at least 6 months after 997 Turbo official sales start. It requires a lot of new knowledge and additional testing to be able to tune the VTG engine...if you want something reliable.

    I'm actually very optimistic regarding 997 Turbo tuning: I'm not sure we will see the same impressive power claims we've seen so far on the 996 Turbo but I'm pretty positive that a software tuned 997 Turbo with maybe additional 40-50 horses will outrun ANY tuned 996 Turbo with tuner claimed 600 HP and more. You'll be surprised. The only thing which makes me worry regarding 997 Turbo tuning is...reliability. One reason why I may do a "mild" 40-50 HP software mapping based tuning on my car or maybe retrofit the powerkit if possible. But anything more...no way. I don't want to destroy an engine which may be now even more expensive with the VTG chargers compared to the old 996 Turbo one.

    Re: 997 Turbo S, 997 GT2 and Tuning the 997tt

    Agree entirely with your points RC.
    If 550 maximum hp is reached through tuning the VVTs this will make the car very fast. The limitation will be with how much has been left on the table for the Tuners to play with in terms of thermal limits for the turbos.
    Re the 997tt S having a bigger unit, that is not certain, but if they don't produce a new unit for the 510/520 engine it indicates either there is lots of potential in the existing VVTs or it is technically not feesible to produce bigger units - From discussions with informed sources I would lean to the latter.

    Re: 997 Turbo S, 997 GT2 and Tuning the 997tt

    all these comments I believe it all adds up to more money now for fewer power up-grade from the factory... Can there still be room for Tuners 20 years from now?

    Re: 997 Turbo S, 997 GT2 and Tuning the 997tt

    RC, why do you think that the 997tt will be faster than the 996tt that are quoted 520-540hp? The low end torque characteristics of the VTG will not come into play in a race (since cars will be revving are 4,500k-7,000k) while the max torque of the tuned 996tt is comfortably higher at 800NM+. Lets not forget that the 2 engines are exactly the same with the addition of the essentially 2-stage VTG turbos.
    Maybe you had superior traction in mind but I dont seem to have any traction compromise in my 996tt (540hp). Now the 997tt will definately be a much better car than the 996tt in terms of handling, user-friendliness etc(and I cant wait to buy one!) but I can't see why on a straight line race the 997tt will have a 50-60hp equivalent advantage as you claim (leaving the tip version aside, comparing manual to manual).
    Can you share your views please with us?

    Re: 997 Turbo S, 997 GT2 and Tuning the 997tt

    Quote:
    GT said:
    RC, why do you think that the 997tt will be faster than the 996tt that are quoted 520-540hp? The low end torque characteristics of the VTG will not come into play in a race (since cars will be revving are 4,500k-7,000k) while the max torque of the tuned 996tt is comfortably higher at 800NM+. Lets not forget that the 2 engines are exactly the same with the addition of the essentially 2-stage VTG turbos.



    FWIW, a 996 TT engine having a max power rating of 520 - 540hp would not have 800 Nm max torque.

    Re: 997 Turbo S, 997 GT2 and Tuning the 997tt

    Actually my car (sportec 540hp) showed 850NM on the dyno after I specifically asked for overboost for max torque. That was after effectively blueprinting the engine (was forced to do it because of an intermediate shaft problem) and is achieved with K.520 turbos. Unless it's a different kind of measurement of course..
    Regardless of what the actual number is though, for sure it'll considerably higher than 620NM or 680NM (for 10secs sport chrono). So why would the 997tt be faster in a straightline race?

    Re: 997 Turbo S, 997 GT2 and Tuning the 997tt

    Quote:
    GT said:
    Actually my car (sportec 540hp) showed 850NM on the dyno after I specifically asked for overboost for max torque. That was after effectively blueprinting the engine (was forced to do it because of an intermediate shaft problem) and is achieved with K.520 turbos. Unless it's a different kind of measurement of course..
    Regardless of what the actual number is though, for sure it'll considerably higher than 620NM or 680NM (for 10secs sport chrono). So why would the 997tt be faster in a straightline race?



    Assuming the "straightline race" is a ricey drag race from 0-whatever, the 997TT with its VTG's and new AWD has the advantage in amateur hands due to its high torque at low revs, even though its peak torque (and peak HP) are lower versus a tuned up KKK-K16/24 996TT, and its excellent traction (although the 996TT's traction ain't bad ). And if grandma is driving with TipS, she has the advantage over the 996TT from pre-boosting the turbo's during gear change in the torque converter. No doubt the tuning market will be challenged by the 997TT with all its computer/electronic advances and its technical sophistication, requiring more complicated (and more expensive) mods., and increasing the potential for c--- mods., both unreliable and underperforming. But I share RC's guarded optimism that some aftermarket chip tuning/airbox/exhaust mods. will be available, and since the VTG's have high torque at low revs., in a paradoxical sense, just subtle changes in engine programming (like re-setting the overboost function to come on earlier/at higher boost/for longer) with appropriate air intake and outflow increase, can make the car more powerful and faster-I bet this is what the "S" will have-although it would also be cool if the "S" had a different VTG than the base TT's, implying that it could potentially handle higher boost pressure and thus higher temperatures. Since hyperthermia will be the limiting factor in reliability (because higher fuel/air/exhaust temps. will via feedback inhibition to the ECU limit maximal power output), the more readily the stock mechanical components can handle the extra boost (from where most of the turbo's extra power readily derives), the greater the potential of aftermarket tuning to reliably increase power.

    In another paradox, therefore, the older 996TT apparently can gain tremendous power relatively cheaply and reliably versus the newer 997TT. The 997TT's biggest advantage over the 996TT though is its steep torque curve with very high torque at low revs. So if a tuner can figure out how to reprogram the ECU to a higher max. torque set point without stimulating hyperthermic feedback inhibtion of the engine output from increased boost pressure (probably best accomplished via better airflow in and out), then his package will work. As RC suggested, a 50HP gain seems feasible without major mechanical modification (e.g., bigger intercooler, different VTG housings).

    Re: 997 Turbo S, 997 GT2 and Tuning the 997tt

    Quote:
    GT said:
    Actually my car (sportec 540hp) showed 850NM on the dyno after I specifically asked for overboost for max torque. That was after effectively blueprinting the engine (was forced to do it because of an intermediate shaft problem) and is achieved with K.520 turbos. Unless it's a different kind of measurement of course..
    Regardless of what the actual number is though, for sure it'll considerably higher than 620NM or 680NM (for 10secs sport chrono). So why would the 997tt be faster in a straightline race?



    Horsepower (hp) has a direct mathematical relationship to torque x engine revs at any given engine speed. The standard 996 TTS torque curve is flat over a wide rev range of 3500 - 4500 rpm, and then drops off before peak power is achieved at 5700 rpm. Boosting torque by 37% from 620 to 850 Nm whilst increasing power by (only) 20% from 450 to 540 suggests that the tuned engine's torque curve would be very "peaky", and drop off much more steeply than the stock engine's?

    The supposed advantage of the 997 TT VTG engine is that the flat max torque "curve" is achieved from below 2000 rpm till 5000 rpm, giving a large area area under the torque curve, which is decisive for straight line acceleration.

    Re: 997 Turbo S, 997 GT2 and Tuning the 997tt

    Quote:
    GT said:The low end torque characteristics of the VTG will not come into play in a race (since cars will be revving are 4,500k-7,000k)...



    Agreed.

    I believe a Stage 2 996 Turbo will stay right with a 997 Turbo on any run starting from 2500-3000 rpm.

    Re: 997 Turbo S, 997 GT2 and Tuning the 997tt

    I agree with your comment. This is however what I specifically asked from the tuner; overboost and max torque buildup (personal preference). It clearly shows in the chart that torque is non-linear but power stays pretty flat between 5500 and 7000 rps so overal it feels pretty good. Hence it is possible to get this kind of torque from 540hp I guess.. Also low-end torque is substantially better than stock tts or tt. The 997tt should be really impresssive in the long end but past 4k revs should not be stronger- cant see any reason.
    Of course if indeed it's possible to extract another 50hp from ecu mods then..

    Re: 997 Turbo S, 997 GT2 and Tuning the 997tt

    ...it is interesting that RUF skipped the wait and just went to a 3.8 liter normal turbo setup...this may be telling!

    Re: 997 Turbo S, 997 GT2 and Tuning the 997tt

    Quote:
    bostonmini said:
    ...it is interesting that RUF skipped the wait and just went to a 3.8 liter normal turbo setup...this may be telling!



    Or maybe they couldn't get their hands on the Turbos. It would be nice to use VTGs on the 3.8 litre block, though. A bit more power and a bit less lag than the 3.6.

     
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