Crown

fritz:

reginos:

Porsche sold 22.000 Panameras in 2013. Who bought those, since nobody wants one? 

When we comment we sometimes tend to generalize from the specific, as no one of us here has the full picture.

I remember that before the Panamera was introduced there were doubts expressed here about whether it would ever achieve the declared sales target of 20000 units/annum. If it is selling 22000 /annum well into the life of the current model, then I wouldn't call it a flop. 

And

2011: 22.500

2012: 27.300

Because these sales are very dispersed all over the world (unlike the sports models) people don't see lots of cars in their area and they consequently think that the model doesn't sell.

For example, around 6000-6500 are sold annually in the USA. A drop in the ocean and hence they are not conspicuous.

"Form follows function"

Porsche needs to lower the prices by including some options on the cars if they want to keep the current quality/performance setup. Then lower the weight of most of their cars.

Reginos -- agree with you that you need facts & figures . Do we know what kind of market share has reached the Panamera since its introduction and how big is the sport/luxury sedan segment worldwide? I guess to sell 20,000 + Panameras is not a small feat.  Also since the Panamera diesel introduction I believe it became (at least in Europe) much more relevant and with a wider potential target and further developing volumes (but this is pure speculation).

What I observe with the Panamera is the following:  when the car was launched thanks to the tremendous novelty effect it attracted mostly non Porsche customers sourcing the business from Mercedes,Bmw, Audi . When the novelty faded the volume growth did not happen any longer .  I have two business contacts who left the S class and went with the Panamera but then back to the S class (when the new one came). This of course is no proof of a bigger phenomenon  but my perception is that the Panamera is probably not a car that builds loyalty in the same manner the 911,Boxster , Cayman did.

m4ever:

Reginos -- agree with you that you need facts & figures . Do we know what kind of market share has reached the Panamera since its introduction and how big is the sport/luxury sedan segment worldwide? I guess to sell 20,000 + Panameras is not a small feat.  Also since the Panamera diesel introduction I believe it became (at least in Europe) much more relevant and with a wider potential target and further developing volumes (but this is pure speculation).

What I observe with the Panamera is the following:  when the car was launched thanks to the tremendous novelty effect it attracted mostly non Porsche customers sourcing the business from Mercedes,Bmw, Audi . When the novelty faded the volume growth did not happen any longer .  I have two business contacts who left the S class and went with the Panamera but then back to the S class (when the new one came). This of course is no proof of a bigger phenomenon  but my perception is that the Panamera is probably not a car that builds loyalty in the same manner the 911,Boxster , Cayman did.

For sure, it is not in the same level of brand loyalty or passion as the 911 or even the Boxster and there will be a shift of buyers to and from this model. But nevertheless, the numbers will add up to the planned levels. Especially, with the new model which I expect it to be more attractive in style, 5 seat and with a Turismo version.

A month ago in our dealer I saw two Chinese families, business people who are based here, ordering two Panameras. Such people wouldn't have come near a Porsche dealership before this model. Same with Russians and the Cayenne.

"Form follows function"

960

Lots of the options should become standard .

For example, LED lights on such premium cars should not be options . They are even standard on cars like a Subaru STI 

Porsche needs to be above by offering better standard packages then the competition and that includes the ' options' and the performance .

They need to make the 911 '' more special '' , at least the ''S'' and the ''GTS'' 

Focus more on delivering better value for money ( what they used to be famous for )

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

So the S & GTS need to be more special than the base Carrera? Is that to justify why people select the S or GTS variant? As the ex-owner of a 997 C2S and current owner of 991 C2 - I agree that the delta between the two no longer justifies the premium but surely this is just tinkering with the specs.

Personally, I'd like to see 7 seats in the Cayenne; price the Cayman properly; a 928 successor and for them to disband "Porsche Design" items. A Porsche blackberry??? FFS!!! 

991 (what a car!) XC90 - 120 Cab - 2 kids, 1 dog

reginos:

Porsche sold 22.000 Panameras in 2013. Who bought those, since nobody wants one? 

When we comment we sometimes tend to generalize from the specific, as no one of us here has the full picture.

Wait for the numbers after the facelift.  Also we need to be careful with production numbers and how many cars have actually been sold.

Saw a couple of facelifted Panamera in the US (Florida) and, surprise, surprise...from the five cars I saw, four had their rear wing raised...at low speeds.  This seems to be a US owner kind of thing but it is quite pathetic. 

Interesting: I have seen tons of Cayenne and even 991 (mostly Cabs) but not a single 991 Turbo or Turbo S.

Also saw tons of new Rolls Royce models, as if this is the new status symbol of the rich and famous in Florida. Overall, I think I saw at least two dozens of new Rolls Royce...within a four day time frame. Unbelievable. At the Bal Harbor shops (a mall near Miami), I saw at least a dozen new Rolls Royce on a single parking lot (valet). If you think that only old people drive them, think again. Most of the drivers (no chauffeurs!!!) I saw were in their 40s. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Probably the RR Wraith?? Personally  i can't imagine driving such a car, but hey... I don't live in Florida 

Suzy

2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic
2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
 

RC:

... Also saw tons of new Rolls Royce models, as if this is the new status symbol of the rich and famous in Florida. ...

Well, the Bentley has gotten some bad press lately, so with the Rolls, they are flying under the radar.

IMO Porsche should

1. Reduce the weight of all cars (although it's impressive how fast heavy cars became during the last years) and lower the number of variations in a model range (probably won't happen as almost all brands try to fill every single gap in their portfolio with a Sports-GT-hybrid-space-more hp-whatsoever variant of a car they have in their portfolio).
2. Start developing a "960" with a flat 8 engine and sell it approx. 2 years after the last 918 left the factory. And don't forget a pure RS version and a race car.
3. Get the Cayman pricing in the right direction and adapt the power figures of the Boxster.
4. Never really thought about a 928 successor, but this car is likely to look awesome and being a showcase of Porsche Engineering, e.g. a fuel efficient N/A V8. Some time ago I read about Michael Mauer having built a mockup of a 2-door Panamera Coupe (sorry, no source for this one).

I don't think they will do a 718, but we'll see.

RC:

Interesting: I have seen tons of Cayenne and even 991 (mostly Cabs) but not a single 991 Turbo or Turbo S.

That is strange. Ever third 911 sold in the US is supposed to be a Turbo. At least according to the statistics 

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

SuzyF:

Probably the RR Wraith?? Personally  i can't imagine driving such a car, but hey... I don't live in Florida 

Mostly Phantom but some Ghost too (cannot really tell the difference most of the time). Rolls Royce seems to be the new "Volkswagen" of the rich and famous in Florida (or at least around Miami), it is absolutely incredible. Have seen some Bentley Cabs but much less than before. As if something happened with Bentley (bad press as someone mentioned?).  Also saw many Maserati and a couple of Ferrari 458 and Lamborghini Gallardo. Tons of Range Rovers too (this seems to be the "Volkswagen" SUV of the rich and famous ) and of course Cayenne.

This is valid for Miami, Miami Beach, Aventura, Sunny Isles Beach, etc. only. Have been to Orlando too for a couple of days and the cars there are actually not very impressive (lots of tourists in their typical rental vehicles and the locals don't seem to be very wealthy). At some point my wife was thinking about working as a doctor in Orlando but we finally decided that she is going to work in the Miami region if we ever decide to move there. Much more wealthy "customers", a friend of ours (doctor) works only two days per week (some sort of assistant job in a clinic) and makes 7k USD per month. I know this isn't much for a doctor but for only two days of work per week? Well...not bad.

We are thinking of some sort of concierge doctor business in the region, there are so many wealthy people there and there should always be the need for a doctor who makes house visits and who is on call all the time. A first class service for a very limited client base. I am pretty sure there already is such thing but with so many (older) wealthy people in the Miami region, there should be room for more doctors. Especially since my wife speaks not only English fluently but also French and Spanish.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

There are now 3 991 Turbos (including mine - I had the first!) in my neighborhood - my cross door neighbor got a white + Red TTS Cab so we nearly have matching cars!. Versus 2 regular C2s. I  do live in one of the nicest neighborhoods on Long Island. There is a Rolls Royce + Bentley + Lamborghini dealer only a few miles from me. I see lots of Rolls Ghosts and Bentleys around my parts. Lots delivering their kids to my son's school. So not just a Miami thing. But I think Miami is a notch more extreme. I stayed at the St Regis in Bal Habour in February. And agree there were lots of Rolls driven by younger people. 

2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2012 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab. Range Rover V8 on order June14 - GT3 or Huracan to add next......decisions decisions decisions.....

Bentley sales aren't down at all, in fact they are way up over last year and the year before was higher than its previous, so maybe you just notice RRs more now.

When you look at the wealth in Florida, keep in mind that 1 out of 5 Florida residents are from another country. If you can't drive your RR in Trashcanistan, Lima or Liberia, you certainly can in Miami.

RC:

Mostly Phantom but some Ghost too (cannot really tell the difference most of the time). Rolls Royce seems to be the new "Volkswagen" of the rich and famous in Florida (or at least around Miami), it is absolutely incredible. Have seen some Bentley Cabs but much less than before. As if something happened with Bentley (bad press as someone mentioned?). ...

Well, Rolls Royce has always been considered the quintessential luxury car in the US. And, I think it's undergoing a bit of a renaissance among US buyers who can afford one and want to project an image of luxury and affluence. They're probably a lot of fun to ride in, too. I don't know any numbers on Bentley sales in South Florida, but I was conjecturing that a particular story that was in the news down there could have had some impact.

Basically, a drunk guy driving a Bentley crashed into another car, knocking it into a canal, then left the scene on foot without making any attempt to render assistance, and leaving the other driver to drown. Chappaquiddick redux:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/23/justice/florida-millionaire-dui-trial/

It got tremendous play in the local press and television news and most of the stories made a point of emphasizing the fact that the "rich guy" was driving an "expensive" Bentley. Almost every story was, "... Bentley ... callous rich guy ... expensive Bentley ..." when really the car he was driving or how much money he had was irrelevant. Of course, it probably wouldn't have been considered news if it had been a redneck in a pickup.

Even in the USA, they are beginning to hate extreme  wealth and its trappings!

Attitudes around the world are changing fast.

--

"Form follows function"

That case has not hurt Bentley sales. Gangsta Rappers using Range Rovers for drive by shootings hasn't hurt Range Rover sales in the US and a Rolls Royce driver in Florida targeted in a drive by shooting hasn't hurt Rolls sales either

The rich guy Bentley driver in the article is a good media target. Not only did he kill a guy, afterwards he tried to protect his wealth from any civil suits by adopting his girl friend and shifting his assets to her. Few rednecks have trust funds to play hide and seek with. Add in the fact that he is the founder of the palm Beach Polo Club and of course all of that is going to get a lot media attention.

reginos:

Even in the USA, they are beginning to hate extreme  wealth and its trappings!

Attitudes around the world are changing fast.

--

"Form follows function"

That was last year. That phase seems over now...

RC, glad to see you come to your sense between Orlando or Miami. You can't compare them... I know you like the beach but you should really check South Miami... Very few realize how pretty it can be.

I was in Miami too, we could have met ;)

One business that is booming now is retail urgent care. They are popping up all over the place.

I have not seen a 991 TT yet in Miami, first I don't think many have been imported in the US yet, but second it doesn't really make sense to spend that kind of money for a car that looks 99% like the other 991. You can't drive them fast anyway... So most people spending that kind of money will move up to Ferrari and other exotic cars or buy a regular 991. Bentley owners have traded up to RR, they have done a fanatic marketing to make the RR cool with younger affluent customers. Hope you enjoyed lunch at La Goulue ;)

SciFrog:

 I know you like the beach but you should really check South Miami... Very few realize how pretty it can be.

Like Pinecrest ? A very good friend just moved there . I visited end of february . It looked like a nice neighborhood .

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Closer to the water...

Obviously, Porsches priorities are a bit different to that what we, their unimportant customers, think. According to autocar.co.uk, they are working on a coupe version of the Cayenne, aka a X6 from Porsche:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/porsche-plans-new-five-door-cayenne-coupe

Porsche proofs that they are a SUV company. Makes me sad.

911 S Cabrio (2013), Panamera GTS (2013)

TomSilver:

Obviously, Porsches priorities are a bit different to that what we, their unimportant customers, think. According to autocar.co.uk, they are working on a coupe version of the Cayenne, aka a X6 from Porsche:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/porsche-plans-new-five-door-cayenne-coupe

Porsche proofs that they are a SUV company. Makes me sad.

Aside from not being relevant to an enthusiast sports car buyer, what is the point of a Coupe version of an SUV?  To remove the headroom of the rear seat passengers?  What good is an SUV without the "U" (Utility)?

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

You are right, the X6 ist the most ridiculous car ever made. It combines the worst aspects of SUVs and coupes: it has the mass, size and fuel consumption of a SUV and the small cabin and luggage space from the coupe. It has none of the advantages of both car types. Why on earth must Porsche build such a stupid thing? 

911 S Cabrio (2013), Panamera GTS (2013)

Because BMW proved with the X6 (they sold the quantity in one year, they had scheduled for the next three...) that there is an adequate customer base for it - surreal, but that is how marketing seem to work nowadays...

There is even a Nissan SUV convertible 

SciFrog:

There is even a Nissan SUV convertible 

I think Nissan just killed it.

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/04/15/nissan-murano-crosscabriolet-dead-no-replacement/

SciFrog:

There is even a Nissan SUV convertible 

LOL! Who invents this shit? Imagine the product development meeting ending up with a SUV crossover convertible as outcome. There must be copious amounts of recreational drugs involved.

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

bluelines:

SciFrog:

There is even a Nissan SUV convertible 

LOL! Who invents this shit? Imagine the product development meeting ending up with a SUV crossover convertible as outcome. There must be copious amounts of recreational drugs involved.

Suzy

2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic
2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic