Crown

This car is a nice addition to the Porsche range . It fits on perfectly . Much better then a 4 cylinder Macan !

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

The Boxster and Cayman while they are good cars, culturally have no iconic status, no "social" base like the 911 has or that the 718 could have.

The Boxster/Cayman generates no passion with the public, a 911 does. The 718 could, the Boxster never will and that is the point.

JimFlat6:

For Boxster and Cayman owners its a great car. Culturally though it has no iconic status, no "social" base like the 911 has or that the 718 could have.

The Boxster generates no passion with the public, a 911 does. The 718 could, the Boxster never will and that is the point.

The 911 has it's iconic status because it's 50 years old. The original 718 has it, because there were only few cars made. The Boxster is a relatively new car, not old enough to have an iconic status yet. The Boxster generates as much passion as the 911 does.  I think you are overrating the 911 a lot and underrating the Boxster a lot. The 718 is nothing more than a small, light and cheap Boxster (which is a good thing if course).

Being iconic doesn't make a car a good car... Corvette is an iconic car as well, but it never has been a really good car. In fact, the majority of it's life it was just an American piece of crap. Still it is an icon in the automotive world and beyond. I can name another 10 cars that are crap, but still are icons. Point is, it's not important to be an icon. The only thing it does in the case of the 911, is make Porsche asking more money for it than it they should and more than the car is worth.

But now let's be honest Jim... What has a Boxster done to you? Do you wanna talk about it? Did it rape you? (i hope not!) 

--

Suzy

2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic
2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
 

Suzy, 911 status has a important component - a racing pedigree.  And few young men day dream about one day buying a Boxster, they do about a 911 and then some do, take Nicks 991 story as an example. A new 718 could provoke that same acquisition kind of emotion. Unfortunately the Boxster never will. Its a very good car but its social baggage burdens its sales. I think after 2016 you might see it vanish into the sunset if its sales keep declining, and a new 718 would help that happen.

I seriously have no idea what you are talking about, when you say the Boxster has social baggage burdens. Like bluelines already said, there is a world outside the USA!  Hello wake up! 

No, most kids haven't been dreaming about a Boxster yet... Simply because the car is not old enough. My generation don't care about racing pedigree. Old people are not the future for a brand, young people are....

Audi has a racing pedigree too by the way, does that make the cars better? It's all stupid sentimental bullshit, that gives the brand a reason to ask more for the cars.  Does Mercedes sell more cars, because they are doing well in F1? They don't even make proper sportscars!!!

No sorry, i really can't understand what you are saying regarding the Boxster. It's as much a true Porsche as the 911 is and it certainly has no social baggage burdens.  I think the Boxster is a lot more socially accepted than a 911, at least in Europe. Take RC. He can't drive his 991 to work, simply because it's socially not accepted. Driving the Boxster to work is not a problem.  Everywhere I go with my Boxster, I get positive reactions. I have never had any negative reaction from people. People in general love the Boxster. Kids recognize it as a Porsche, which to me says enough. Sure... The brand became known for the 911 of course, but Porsche has always been and will always be more than just the 911.

But one thing we agree... 718 must come! 

--

Suzy

2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic
2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
 

@Jim: Your approach relating to the Boxster/Cayman is conceptual rather than practical.

The 981 range sold 25.700 units in 2013 worldwide, that is 16% of total and equal to the 911 range sales.

No Business would throw away such a volume and hand it to the competition.

"Form follows function"

Of course, there are various examples of 4 cylinder models from numerous decades ago. However, I'm not debating Porsche's history but where it is headed going forward. IMHO Porsche as a premium sports car manufacturer should not be downsizing its engines in this way for future models. It doesn't represent progress in my eyes in terms of performance. IMO it is aimed at meeting emissions targets legislation and increasing sales volume in developing markets.

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

I agree that a 4C 911 will be a retrograde step, but even in that case mentally rather than realistically. 

But for a smaller and lighter roadster why not? Besides a smaller engine is also lighter and within the sports car ethos.

We shall see many engineering changes in future in the interest of emissions and fuel efficiency. Even extravagant Ferrari have downsized one of their models and I suspect more is to follow. Not to speak of Formula 1.

It is not only the legislation but also common sense. Use modern technology to get more by expending less.

--

"Form follows function"

easy_rider911:

Of course, there are various examples of 4 cylinder models from numerous decades ago. However, I'm not debating Porsche's history but where it is headed going forward. IMHO Porsche as a premium sports car manufacturer should not be downsizing its engines in this way for future models. It doesn't represent progress in my eyes in terms of performance. IMO it is aimed at meeting emissions targets legislation and increasing sales volume in developing markets.

That's not so much a matter of opinion as a clearly and openly declared intent of the various auto certification authorities world-wide. Car manufacturers have no option but to adapt their product ranges accordingly, in view of the punitive taxes already being imposed in various forms on vehicles with higher carbon emissions. 
Reducing carbon emissions is not a question of being a means of increasing sales volumes in developing markets so much as an absolute necessity in order to survive in the well-established markets, as it is these traditional markets which are driving the legislation. 
The days when it was relatively easy to achieve increases in power output at the same time as reductions in fuel consumption and emissions by adapting more sophisticated engine control strategies are now past. 

fritz

FWIW, I believe the Boxster is an outstanding sport car albeit a weak one. Jim is correct that it is burdened with cultural baggage. It is considered in the US more of a girlie car and part of this is attributed to the relatively low hp. For Porsche to introduce a weaker car can only make sense if considered in today's environmental regulations.

However, I was under the impression that many of the these standards were applied to the company products as a whole and VW has a wide range of low emission cars. So why build a car to compete against the Mazda??

nberry:

FWIW, I believe the Boxster is an outstanding sport car albeit a weak one. Jim is correct that it is burdened with cultural baggage. It is considered in the US more of a girlie car and part of this is attributed to the relatively low hp. For Porsche to introduce a weaker car can only make sense if considered in today's environmental regulations.

Yes, I can understand if it is considered a car for girliemen in the US, where real men drive monster trucks and muscle cars. I am not ironic, for a change. Although, Car & Driver has had it on its Top 10 list for eleven years now. 

For me the Boxster is THE definition of a sports car. It ticks all the boxes. Even the power is sufficient. It is sufficient for 99% of the members on this forum too since I bet maximum 1% here can drive it to the limit. It is as quick around a track as the 996 GT3 Mk1 and no one complained about that one being too soft or built for girliemen. So it is all down to perception thanks to a market where there is an inflation in power figures and a never ending comparison of acceleration times.

I would love to see the 718, which sounds very similar to the original 986 Boxster 

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

nberry:

However, I was under the impression that many of the these standards were applied to the company products as a whole and VW has a wide range of low emission cars. So why build a car to compete against the Mazda??

Whilst it is planned that fuel consumption limits over companies' complete product ranges are applied in some markets, there are also annual vehicle operating taxes which vary according to carbon emissions already in force in some markets, and they naturally target individual models.

It would be illusory to think that these annual taxes do not influence the choice of buyers of expensive cars, and they most certainly have a large influence on the buying decisions of used cars, which in turn hits the residual values of cars. 

fritz

JimFlat6:

Its time for something new. In 2013 The Boxster and Cayman got a sales bump from the newest versions, but that sales increase collapsed for 2014 and that is contrary to industry predictions that Boxster sales would be 25% higher this year (2014) over last year. The writing is on the wall.

Keep the making the Boxster and the new 718? Who knows.  Can Porsche make and sell 4 models of sports cars? 960 991, Boxster and the 716? in 2016?? Maybe not. 

I think whether Porsche met "industry predictions" is entirely irrelevant as a data point. It's begging the question of whether "industry predictions" have any validity. And, one month, especially in comparison to an entire year, is also irrelevant as a data point. (It might be more relevant if were a YOY comparison of 3/13 to 3/14, but even that is irrelevant without putting it in context.) Furthermore, this seems exactly the sales pattern one ought to expect, where a new model release stimulates a bump in sales, followed by a downward trend until the next model release.

And, yes, certainly Porsche can make and sell 4 models of sports cars. Of the 4 you mention -- 960, 911, Boxster/Cayman, "718" -- the 960 is the riskiest in terms of financial success. The 911 and Boxster/Cayman will likely continue to both be very successful for them, despite your fears. The "718", if real and as rumored, would also appear to have every likelihood of success. Positioned roughly between the Mazda Miata and the Boxster, it won't have much competition in it's class, and the Porsche name will make it very attractive to the target demographic.

The one thing I think they need to "fix" is the mistake of pricing the Cayman above the Boxster, and maintaining the horsepower difference between them. Switching the Boxster/Cayman to 4-cylinder turbo engines is the perfect opportunity to correct this mistake by "reinventing" the model so that it has parity with itself in coupe and cabriolet configurations, and removes it, at the S end, from competition with the base Carrera, which would be substantially differentiated by continuing to use NA 6-cylinder engines, rather than just by horsepower. The "718" would then slot in under the Boxster/Cayman with NA 4-cylinder engines. The platforms for all of these are different as well, going the line 3 distinct model lines -- 4 if you count the 911 Turbos as a distinct model.

The 960 is riskier because there's, ironically, a lot more competition at the high end, especially given the probable sales numbers, than at any of the other 3/4 model levels. This would be more of a prestige and R&D model for them, but could be successful if distinctive enough.

European sales are also down for the Boxster and Cayman this year, how Porsche plans to reverse that is anyone's guess.  The new 718 model will likely eat into some Boxster sales when it is launched and the Boxster may just get squeezed out of the market between 718's and the coming 4cyl Carrera model. You have to realize that Porsche has ended models before.

However if the 718 is just a lower priced variation of the existing Boxster and not received by the public as a new car, like the Macan, it could flop and hurt all Boxster sales.

Ferrari, Lamborghini, Pagani, Aston Martin, McLaren, Maserati etc all satisfy the same EU emissions legislation without watering down their product range 

 

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

easy_rider911:

Ferrari, Lamborghini, Pagani, Aston Martin, McLaren, Maserati etc all satisfy the same EU emissions legislation without watering down their product range 

Check out the EU mandatory emission reduction targets for smaller manufacturers:

Targets for smaller manufacturers

Independent manufacturers which sell between 1000 and 10,000 vehicles per year and which cannot or do not wish to join a pool can propose their own emissions reduction target which is subject to approval by the Commission. The Commission decides on the basis of a set of agreed criteria which include the manufacturer's emissions reduction potential.

Manufacturers selling between 10,000 and 300,000 cars per year can apply for a fixed target of a 25% reduction from their 2007 average emissions for the period 2012 to 2019, and a 45% reduction from the 2007 level as of 2020.

Manufacturers selling less than 1000 new cars per year in the EU, as well as special purpose vehicles, such as vehicles built to accommodate wheelchair access, are excluded from the scope of the legislation.

"Form follows function"

fritz:

nberry:

However, I was under the impression that many of the these standards were applied to the company products as a whole and VW has a wide range of low emission cars. So why build a car to compete against the Mazda??

Whilst it is planned that fuel consumption limits over companies' complete product ranges are applied in some markets, there are also annual vehicle operating taxes which vary according to carbon emissions already in force in some markets, and they naturally target individual models.

It would be illusory to think that these annual taxes do not influence the choice of buyers of expensive cars, and they most certainly have a large influence on the buying decisions of used cars, which in turn hits the residual values of cars. 

If I am paying between a $150,000 to $250,000 for a car, the tax to me would be inconsequential. However, If I am paying less than $50,000, then it may enter into my decision making. 

FWIW, I believe building the Macan is a good decision and a car below the Boxster a dubious one. The brand has been diluted enough. Around here it is losing its sparkle. While waiting in the showroom a couple of days ago, they had on display every model including the GT3. One individual also waiting commented to his friend as he was looking at the GT3 "Now this is a proper Porsche".

Well yeah, a GT3 looks purposeful. In comparison some of the others don't. When you are selling cars with kinetic capabilities way beyond whats legal for public road use and will likely never used by their owners, it can make their owners look like they are paying too much to be something they are not. On the GT3 its appearance at least implies the owner will take his car to a racetrack every now and then.  The most lame are those F458 owners with body colored wheel edges and senior sized fender Scuderia shields who lap expensive alfresco dining areas like lost homing pigeons on sunny weekends. They make a neon green Lamborghini owner look positively sane.

reginos:

easy_rider911:

Ferrari, Lamborghini, Pagani, Aston Martin, McLaren, Maserati etc all satisfy the same EU emissions legislation without watering down their product range 

Check out the EU mandatory emission reduction targets for smaller manufacturers:

Targets for smaller manufacturers

Independent manufacturers which sell between 1000 and 10,000 vehicles per year and which cannot or do not wish to join a pool can propose their own emissions reduction target which is subject to approval by the Commission. The Commission decides on the basis of a set of agreed criteria which include the manufacturer's emissions reduction potential.

Manufacturers selling between 10,000 and 300,000 cars per year can apply for a fixed target of a 25% reduction from their 2007 average emissions for the period 2012 to 2019, and a 45% reduction from the 2007 level as of 2020.

Manufacturers selling less than 1000 new cars per year in the EU, as well as special purpose vehicles, such as vehicles built to accommodate wheelchair access, are excluded from the scope of the legislation.

 

Thanks - yes, I'm aware of the smaller manufacturer 10000 unit threshold. Different rules apply to a volume manufacturer like Porsche. But that's part of my point - Porsche has been prepared to dilute its sports car focus in the pursuit of volume.

If Porsche had really wanted to maintain its high end sports car profile at all costs, it would have created separate subsidiaries just to handle the Cayenne, Panamera etc.

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

easy_rider911:

If Porsche had really wanted to maintain its high end sports car profile at all costs, it would have created separate subsidiaries just to handle the Cayenne, Panamera etc.

I think you are getting this all wrong. Porsche should create a separate subsidiary to handle the 911, not the other cars in the model range. Or they could just build the GT models under a different, let's say "Porsche Motorsport" brand name. This would include the GT3, GT3RS, GT2(RS) and 960. This should give them enough leeway to improve certain things.

On the other hand, I wonder how AMG does it. Have you listened to their engine/exhaust sounds? They build more than 10000 cars per year as far as I know.

Porsche is sometimes a little bit too stubborn and maybe also doesn't use all legal possibilities to full extent, for whatever reason. Just compare the Panamera Turbo S exhaust/engine sound to the current E63 AMG. 

Also take the 991 Turbo S: It is my understanding that the VTG chargers limit the legal possibilities to create a better exhaust sound. So why not get rid of them and find a different solution? There was enough time for that.

Porsche needs to start to think a little bit outside the box. They started a couple of good things but everything feels a little bit half bread and not completely thought through.

Also there are a couple of things I just don't understand. Like for example the GTS models. Great sound, great chassis/steering setups, engine power sucks though. Why not offer a GTS option package for the top models? This would make much more sense in my opinion. If someone is happy with the 420 hp of the Cayenne GTS, so be it. If someone isn't happy, so at least give this customer the chance to opt for the most powerful Turbo S engine instead.

I hate to say this but I am on a path where I already started looking for alternatives and this comes from a die hard Porsche lover. The family SUV choice was the first "smart" choice and I haven't regretted it yet.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

easy_rider911:

Thanks - yes, I'm aware of the smaller manufacturer 10000 unit threshold. Different rules apply to a volume manufacturer like Porsche. But that's part of my point - Porsche has been prepared to dilute its sports car focus in the pursuit of volume.

If Porsche had really wanted to maintain its high end sports car profile at all costs, it would have created separate subsidiaries just to handle the Cayenne, Panamera etc.

You seem to have a nostalgic longing for something that never really existed.   
Even before the Cayenne and Panamera were brought to life the 911 model was never intentionally produced in numbers of less than 10000 units per year. It just came close to that when the company was doing badly in the early 1990's and the 964 was not selling. Porsche cars then were not thought of as having a high end sports car profile in the same way as Ferrari, Lamborghini or Maserati in its heyday. So Porsche has in fact just continued to build higher numbers of 911s at prices consistently lower than the "supercars", but with performance levels and quality standards which have allowed them to punch above their weight and be compared with the supercars. 
The fact that other Porsche models were introduced to try to prevent a repeat of the situation which arose in the early 1990s does not detract in any way from the qualities of the sports cars, if you can see past the perception of reduced "exclusivity".  

fritz

easy_rider911:

reginos:

easy_rider911:

Ferrari, Lamborghini, Pagani, Aston Martin, McLaren, Maserati etc all satisfy the same EU emissions legislation without watering down their product range 

Check out the EU mandatory emission reduction targets for smaller manufacturers:

Targets for smaller manufacturers

Independent manufacturers which sell between 1000 and 10,000 vehicles per year and which cannot or do not wish to join a pool can propose their own emissions reduction target which is subject to approval by the Commission. The Commission decides on the basis of a set of agreed criteria which include the manufacturer's emissions reduction potential.

Manufacturers selling between 10,000 and 300,000 cars per year can apply for a fixed target of a 25% reduction from their 2007 average emissions for the period 2012 to 2019, and a 45% reduction from the 2007 level as of 2020.

Manufacturers selling less than 1000 new cars per year in the EU, as well as special purpose vehicles, such as vehicles built to accommodate wheelchair access, are excluded from the scope of the legislation.

 

Thanks - yes, I'm aware of the smaller manufacturer 10000 unit threshold. Different rules apply to a volume manufacturer like Porsche. But that's part of my point - Porsche has been prepared to dilute its sports car focus in the pursuit of volume.

If Porsche had really wanted to maintain its high end sports car profile at all costs, it would have created separate subsidiaries just to handle the Cayenne, Panamera etc.

The Porsche emissions range goes up to 300.000 units. Therefore, this is their intended maximum, I presume and no more. Still, for some potential buyers the current 200.000 is already to high a production volume.

--

"Form follows function"

I don't care about production numbers or that Porsche dilutes the brand. I care about value for the money and at 130k EUR for a 991 Carrera S and 200k EUR for a 991 Turbo S, my value for the money equation doesn't really add up anymore. I also agree with some who may say that the Macan interior looks very similar to the 991 interior. Now everything depends on how Porsche decides to improve the Cayenne and later on, the 911 interior. Yes, there must be similarities but not to a point where you can barely see a difference. The same goes for the Carrera S and Turbo S interior. A higher end speed and a Turbo S logo doesn't really cut it anymore. The difference needs to be more substantial.

Overall, I think Porsche needs to be careful about their top of the line customers.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

@RC: sure, it can be done either way - creating a separate affiliate for the sports cars to be moved out of the main brand OR the other way round (which is what I was saying) ... 

@fritz: I must confess that you might be right in your perception of my nostalgia ... except I query the part about whether the smaller numbers issue was more apparent than real ... it's unquestionable that, since the time of Wendelin Wiedeking, production numbers have been escalating dramatically across all models ... also with plenty more special editions just to boost volumes ... with occasionally a dubious basis for such specials that can often look like not much more than a particular set of existing options ... also, the EU emissions targets were never really an issue until this past 5-10 years ... before that, it wasn't such a crucial target to meet ... the period I look back to pre-dates the emissions regime. May be I should just get with the programme and get back on message!

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

easy_rider911:

@fritz: I must confess that you might be right in your perception of my nostalgia ... except I query the part about whether the smaller numbers issue was more apparent than real ... it's unquestionable that, since the time of Wendelin Wiedeking, production numbers have been escalating dramatically across all models ... also with plenty more special editions just to boost volumes ... with occasionally a dubious basis for such specials that can often look like not much more than a particular set of existing options ... also, the EU emissions targets were never really an issue until this past 5-10 years ... before that, it wasn't such a crucial target to meet ... the period I look back to pre-dates the emissions regime. May be I should just get with the programme and get back on message!

Before Wiedeking became CEO, Porsche had 3 disparate product lines with few common parts, so it had not been financially capable of keeping them sufficiently updated to maintain or increase sales figures. The 968 was just a heavily face-lifted 944 with bigger engine displacement, the 928 had just been face-lifted and had its power output increased periodically ever since its introduction in 1977, and sales of even the flagship 911 were tanking because the 964 version was not enough of an improvement on the original 911, so that production fell to about 10000 units one year. The company had been run too long by old men who didn't even recognise the situation it was heading into, let alone have the will or vision to turn it around. It was a candidate for a fire sale when Wiedeking was given the job of turning it around. There had even been talk of Toyota buying it. If that had happened, we would not even need to have this discussion today! 

Wiedeking obviously decided that attack was the best form of defence and threw all traditions (including a rather paternalistic management style) overboard. The increased production figures and eventually a broader product range were born from the recognition that they were essential to ensure the survival of the company as an independent entity. The fact that it eventually lost this independence is another story. 

It's true that the emissions topic is different today to earlier times. Whereas in the past it was a matter of eliminating toxic emissions, the objective now is to reduce carbon emissions, regardless of whether expressed in grams per kilometre in an European context or in miles per gallon in the USA. That can only be achieved by reducing vehicle weights and/or engine sizes. Ferrari doesn't seem to talk about its Millechili concept any more, which might tell us something about how difficult it is to reduce weight while still satisfying the other demands the market makes on modern cars. 

fritz

A car below the Boxster makes no sense whatsoever. What they need to do is lower their prices on the whole range by making standard some current options, and somewhat lower or control the weights.

A car below the Boxster makes total sense if its actually a different car. If its just a reskinned  Boxster with less content and less weight it might make a lot of potential buyers say WTF to it and its more expensive brother.

They will have to work how much they can gouge 40K customers for. 

I think this car might be a response to the new Toyota-BMW sports car deal instead of a pro active decision. It makes sense to have a lower priced sports car to bait non S non Turbo Macan owners with. If Mr and Mrs Smith can get two new Porsches for the price of one decked out Cayenne it will definitely make sales waves. But if Porsche is going to shank buyers on 718 HP when they can get a 50K 400hp Audi TTS, that little horse on the Porsche badge better be able to provide some magic.

SciFrog:
A bare bone car will not sell well in the real world...

The Mazda MX-5 Miata has sold quite a few copies (400,000 of just the 1st of 3 generations alone - a very bare bones car).  Something up-market from there with similar ethos would be very successful with a Porsche badge, imo.

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550