Crown

ADias:

amazon:

KresoF1:

Porsche did not add anything. They simply use VW Golf GTI engine.

That's even worse. At least, they could have made their own 4 cylinder engine.

 

This Macan 4cyl-turbo engine is tuned higher (234bhp and 258lb ft of torque) than the VW GTI which delivers 200bhp and 207lb ft.  A significant bump up, actually.

Golf VII GTI actually has 217bhp and 258lb-ft. With the optional performance package you get 10hp more.

Suzy

2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic
2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
 

Releasing it in Beijing may give a subtle hint about their target market?

Woolfe:

Releasing it in Beijing may give a subtle hint about their target market?

I'd say paticular this engine would sell in Europe very well.

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

I think this engine will really kick off Macan's real volume!  It will be like a Toyota Altis where u can see it in every other corner....  if they even put in a 2.0TDI it would pretty much eat off all Q5/X3/GLK/Lexus RX buyers, further eatting Infinity FX, or Acura MDX buyers....  I would hope this is a good thing, but dilution of prosche brand value begings a new era once these goes in sell.... hahaha!!  They should start a new brand of 911. just "911" no porsche badge...... 

huangester:

I think this engine will really kick off Macan's real volume!  It will be like a Toyota Altis where u can see it in every other corner....  if they even put in a 2.0TDI it would pretty much eat off all Q5/X3/GLK/Lexus RX buyers, further eatting Infinity FX, or Acura MDX buyers....  I would hope this is a good thing, but dilution of prosche brand value begings a new era once these goes in sell.... hahaha!!  They should start a new brand of 911. just "911" no porsche badge...... 

I was actually thinking about the Porsche Motorsport brand. Had this idea for quite some while. Only high performance models would qualify, incl. the Panamera and Cayenne GTS/Turbo/Turbo S models.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

amazon:

KresoF1:

Porsche did not add anything. They simply use VW Golf GTI engine.

That's even worse. At least, they could have made their own 4 cylinder engine.

There was strong demand for an entry level Macan and I think Porsche tried to make dealers in certain regions happy. Not sure it was a good idea though but time will tell.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

To me it is getting a bit much. I feel I am loosing something ......

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Gnil:

To me it is getting a bit much. I feel I am loosing something ......

Agree this feels a bit sad for the brand...! 

996C4, Artic silver (gone) 997C2S, Seal/black, -20mm LSD, PSE (gone) 986S, Arctic Silver (gone)

Jeannot:

Gnil:

To me it is getting a bit much. I feel I am loosing something ......

Agree this feels a bit sad for the brand...! 

+1 

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

Over and over again the story about the dilution of the brand. I see no problem in allowing more people to enjoy Porsche ownership, or the same individual/families to buy an extra Porsche instead of looking elsewhere. Not everybody in the world is lucky enough or extravagant to own only large displacement engines, and even those who do might not need a huge engine for one of their cars. Why hand those customers to the competition? Once they enjoy ownership at entry level they will most probably move up to the bigger models if their circumstances allow.

IMO the dilution comes when a manufacturer makes rubbish cars of low quality and/or limited appeal that very few consumers care to pay for. Not by numbers. And nevertheless Porsche might ultimately produce 250.000 units. A small number in the grand scheme of things. I think that some 60 million cars are produced every year nowadays.

Examples that come to my mind, of why numbers alone are not the determinant:

SAAB throughout their history sold very few cars. Have they become exclusive? They collapsed!

Volvo and Jaguar. They also sell very few, not by choice but due to relatively limited demand. Yet no one boasts that his Volvo is the only one in the neighbourhood. And very few would prefer a Jag over the ubiquitous Mercedes, judging by their respective sales figures.

Peugeot/Citroen sell fewer cars nowadays compared to BMW or Audi. Have they become premium? On the contrary they struggle not to go bankrupt.

--

"Form follows function"

Very valid and good points Reginos, as always.

I do see the dilution hurting the premium models, like the 911. It has a superficial premium which is worth less and less for every "cheaper" model. There is a reason people pay almost twice as much for a new 911 as, for example, a Cayman or an M3.

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

SuzyF:

ADias:

amazon:

KresoF1:

Porsche did not add anything. They simply use VW Golf GTI engine.

That's even worse. At least, they could have made their own 4 cylinder engine.

 

This Macan 4cyl-turbo engine is tuned higher (234bhp and 258lb ft of torque) than the VW GTI which delivers 200bhp and 207lb ft.  A significant bump up, actually.

Golf VII GTI actually has 217bhp and 258lb-ft. With the optional performance package you get 10hp more.

The newest 2.0 TFSI, which is used in the Golf 7 GTI for example and apparently also in the Macan, is the third-generation EA888. The 200 and 211 hp versions (in the GTI) are of the previous generation. I don´t find the sound too inspiring but other than that it is a proper engine. Most impressive to me is the torque which should fit perfectly to the Macan. On the other hand, if the car is driven in a spirited manner I don´t believe that the gas mileage is significantly better than on the 3.0 V6. I am just surprised that Porsche obviously did not do any modifications to it but that might not even be necessary in this case.

I would not compare SAAB to Porsche. I couldn't tell what motorsport competition SAAB won and personally I never dreamt of owning a SAAB. Not when I was 7 years old, 20, 30 or 40.

We all know the boxster saved porsche and hence our beloved 911....But Macan 4 cylinders? Where does this end? With a luxury compact VW golf size?

I have nothing against the Macan, I'll probably get one when i return in CH over te Q5 I had when I left but 4 cylinders Macan? There should be SOME exclusivity in the brand...

996C4, Artic silver (gone) 997C2S, Seal/black, -20mm LSD, PSE (gone) 986S, Arctic Silver (gone)

reginos:

IMO the dilution comes when a manufacturer makes rubbish cars of low quality and/or limited appeal that very few consumers care to pay for. Not by numbers. And nevertheless Porsche might ultimately produce 250.000 units. A small number in the grand scheme of things. I think that some 60 million cars are produced every year nowadays.

Examples that come to my mind, of why numbers alone are not the determinant:

SAAB throughout their history sold very few cars. Have they become exclusive? They collapsed!

Volvo and Jaguar. They also sell very few, not by choice but due to relatively limited demand. Yet no one boasts that his Volvo is the only one in the neighbourhood. And very few would prefer a Jag over the ubiquitous Mercedes, judging by their respective sales figures.

Peugeot/Citroen sell fewer cars nowadays compared to BMW or Audi. Have they become premium? On the contrary they struggle not to go bankrupt.

Reginos,

I think you nailed it here. While the 993 was available, the 968 was still produced. Does this hinder the appeal or used-car price of the 993 one bit? Of course not... the car is desirable to to many people which reflects in its value. You are also indeed correct that people use the Mercedes SLC as an example while the same brand that has produced mediocre cars at best (first and second-gen A-class comes to mind...). Not really a good alternative when it comes to brand dilution. I would be curious though how many people bought or refrained from buying an SLS because of that.

I believe what people actually complain about is Porsche´s diversion of their core values. That has been the case already with the first Cayenne, somewhat continued with the Panamera and is at its peak with the Macan now. Apart from the fact that those SUVs do not correspond entirely with the brand´s core values, people might feel that they are too close to their respective technical counterparts within the VW group (Touareg and Q5). If a new entry-level sportscar is going to be built it has to be exceeding certain expectations in terms of technology and driving character. Otherwise, I agree, Porsche´s credibility is at stake... they still might be able to sell many cars but would they be able to justify any premium over Audi for example?

Jeannot:

I have nothing against the Macan, I'll probably get one when i return in CH over te Q5 I had when I left but 4 cylinders Macan? There should be SOME exclusivity in the brand...

I rather have a problem with a certain lower end of performance. A Macan with less than 200 hp, no matter if diesel or gasoline, doesn´t seem right to me. There are also enough possibilities to extract more than that out of a 2 liter diesel engine nowadays...

SAAB won Monte Carlo 1962 and 1963

Macan 4cyl is diluting the brand much more by being a TRUCK rather than having a small engine IMHO

 

Jeannot:

I would not compare SAAB to Porsche. I couldn't tell what motorsport competition SAAB won and personally I never dreamt of owning a SAAB. Not when I was 7 years old, 20, 30 or 40.

You'd need to be older than 40 to remember SAAB's real successes.  

 Eric Carlsson is a lot older than 40 and he barely remembers them. 

fritz

I was down on the macan, but porsche only has two values: performance and profit. I just ordered a Macan turbo with all the performance options from CCS in auckland.  We need a rig for high station dirt roads on the South Island, and when we are carrying a son ( human) or Sun (canine), and i just cant stand cayenne looks. Macan looks better  and should handle decently and be easy to park and shouldnperform

the dealer is providing a full size spare gratis, but thee are no skidplates for macan, an oversight for the south island.  I gave up on my fav burmeister, since its 10000 $ in nz, jesus porsche dont let us forget about the profits...  :)

fritz:

Jeannot:

I would not compare SAAB to Porsche. I couldn't tell what motorsport competition SAAB won and personally I never dreamt of owning a SAAB. Not when I was 7 years old, 20, 30 or 40.

You'd need to be older than 40 to remember SAAB's real successes.  

 Eric Carlsson is a lot older than 40 and he barely remembers them. 

ok they DID win something :-) impressive! 

996C4, Artic silver (gone) 997C2S, Seal/black, -20mm LSD, PSE (gone) 986S, Arctic Silver (gone)

Jeannot, I'll send you this book for your birthday

"Form follows function"

reginos:

Jeannot, I'll send you this book for your birthday

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

reginos:

Over and over again the story about the dilution of the brand. I see no problem in allowing more people to enjoy Porsche ownership, or the same individual/families to buy an extra Porsche instead of looking elsewhere. Not everybody in the world is lucky enough or extravagant to own only large displacement engines, and even those who do might not need a huge engine for one of their cars. Why hand those customers to the competition? Once they enjoy ownership at entry level they will most probably move up to the bigger models if their circumstances allow.

IMO the dilution comes when a manufacturer makes rubbish cars of low quality and/or limited appeal that very few consumers care to pay for. Not by numbers. And nevertheless Porsche might ultimately produce 250.000 units. A small number in the grand scheme of things. I think that some 60 million cars are produced every year nowadays.

Examples that come to my mind, of why numbers alone are not the determinant:

SAAB throughout their history sold very few cars. Have they become exclusive? They collapsed!

Volvo and Jaguar. They also sell very few, not by choice but due to relatively limited demand. Yet no one boasts that his Volvo is the only one in the neighbourhood. And very few would prefer a Jag over the ubiquitous Mercedes, judging by their respective sales figures.

Peugeot/Citroen sell fewer cars nowadays compared to BMW or Audi. Have they become premium? On the contrary they struggle not to go bankrupt.

--

"Form follows function"

My '' feeling'' is not a concrete analysis . I am not happy to start to see a Porsche badge on every corner . I liked to have a badge that wasn't everywhere and that everyone would have . I was ready to pay extra for that . Now I am starting more and more to feel I am part of the mass , owning a Porsche .  I do still feel a bit  '' apart and a  special '' with a 911 .

But right now I would not pay a premium to own a 991 Carrera . The car + the direction the brand is going does not represent what I am looking for ( too GT's + too '' commun '' ) . I am slowly seeing Porsche more of a SUV brand  And that is crazy !!!

They realy need to step up there sports car , or I will slowly drift away and just look at it as a family brand .

I am getting more drown toward Mclaren for example ..... because I see it more as the '' old'' Porsche 

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Gnil, I agree that Porsche should work hard all the time to develop their sportscars further and further. I also agree that their sports models should offer more value with more HP and more standard equipment. It is funny for example to pay for cruise control €300 extra, when it is standard on my 13.000 EUR Polo. Or a sportscar without LSD or PTV etc. as standard!

Having said the above, I cannot find any car to be more attractive for me to drive and own than a Carrera S and still be at the threshold of affordability to buy and mostly to maintain. Similarly a Turbo is supercar fast and with more real world  possibilities at 70% of the price of the Ferrari and McLaren. 

A Carrera S is just above €100.000, a Turbo €165.000, a McLaren is €240.000, hardly comparable. 

For some reason Porsche prices in CH are inflated from what I read here and obviously that affects your decision making. But I know people who moved to the realm of dream cars and after a while miss the usability and affordability in maintenance of Porsche. Unless, of course someone is in the category of super rich and can afford a large garage that can encompass everything that he fancies. And very few of those people don't include one Porsche at least.

IMHO, since you want to move up, you will enjoy more your favourite tracks and Alpine Passes in a new GT3 RS, and save some money in the process.

--

"Form follows function"

The Turbo S is exactly the same price as the 650S coupé . ( to be precise , the Porsche is a few hundred francs more expensive ) . 

Porsche has never corrected the exchange rates after 2009 , making the cars over here way too expensive compared to other markets  ( specially UK, where they are the cheapest in Europe for I don't know what reason )

They offer 2 years guarantee for free and a few insignificant options .

The Carrera is , I agree , the best sports DD driver and has no rival .

But, if you want more , then there is choice .

I am looking now for a more raw sports car and I am getting disappointed with the 911 . I might still go for the GT3 RS , but there is not the same excitement about the car anymore .  I don't like the Panamera inside ( but if needed I will live with that ) and I am not certain yet, Porsche has put enough attention to the sport department ( except 918 ) .

And at the moment I would never trade my 997 Carrera S for a 991 Carrera S . 

I will now have to deceide between GT3 RS or 650S  .  Right now I feel more exited with 650 S for all the reasons I used to feel exited about Porsche ...... except the long history 

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Is Porsche CH, factory owned? Because the pricing of the Turbo is a robbery! IMO owners should point this out to PAG.

"Form follows function"

Gnil:

I will now have to deceide between GT3 RS or 650S  .  Right now I feel more exited with 650 S for all the reasons I used to feel exited about Porsche ...... except the long history 

I am with you on that one. 

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

bluelines:

Gnil:

I will now have to deceide between GT3 RS or 650S  .  Right now I feel more exited with 650 S for all the reasons I used to feel exited about Porsche ...... except the long history 

I am with you on that one. 

If I could move above Porsche the only car that caught my fancy is the new Lamborghini. I saw it at the Salon and I was immediately attracted. Authentic Italian supercar but with German quality input and the VW financial umbrella.

 I wouldn't buy an expensive car or anything of high value from a company with a life of only 3 years and uncertain future. I don't think McLaren in its present form could last for long, similar to other small manufacturers. There is demand now because of the novelty value and until rivals react. But I don't think they will be able to sustain it. 

"Form follows function"

reginos:

Jeannot, I'll send you this book for your birthday

 

996C4, Artic silver (gone) 997C2S, Seal/black, -20mm LSD, PSE (gone) 986S, Arctic Silver (gone)

reginos:

Gnil, I agree that Porsche should work hard all the time to develop their sportscars further and further. I also agree that their sports models should offer more value with more HP and more standard equipment. It is funny for example to pay for cruise control €300 extra, when it is standard on my 13.000 EUR Polo. Or a sportscar without LSD or PTV etc. as standard!

[…]

Reginos, I disagree!

Forget sportscars and developing them further. You just identified Porsche's remaining source of brand equity and what sets them and us apart even as they become an SUV / sedan company. It is not the badge, nor motorsports involvement, nor history. It is their practice of charging, and our willingness to pay, absurd $$$ for features and equipment that should be standard equipment, and is with other, pedestrian brands.

So what Porsche should focus on, in order to maintain their exclusivity, is not offering more value and more standard equipment as you say, but quite the opposite: finding new ways of charging more and more for less and less.