Crown

reginos:

I share you view that Porsche could have avoided the Macan. However, it's done now.

At first I thought it would damage the brand but now my opinion is that what counts is how good the products are and at what prices. True, perceptions of glamour and exclusivity are very important for a part of the buyers who are willing to pay a huge premium for this "privilege". I don't think those are the typical Porsche buyers. Nevertheless, Porsche models have never had the "show factor" like some other brands.

As long as Porsche make excellent, quality sports cars, like they have been doing for decades now, these are not only going to sell well but they are going to continue to be the benchmark.

There is an analogy with the Mercedes S class. This model is still the benchmark of limousines and the default choice in its segment,  in spite of M-B now producing all sorts of small and cheaper cars and the Stern being at the front of every taxi, van and truck. Some buyers with the need for conspicuous consumption might migrate to other more limited production brands, but fact is that the success story of the big Mercedes continues unabated because of its solid engineering, quality and because it meets the standards expected in its class. In the same way the 911 will carry on forever and it will continue to be revered by sports car fans, notwithstanding the Macan.

+1 

The fact that the same brand makes both the 911 and cheaper entry models should have no effect on your enjoyment of whichever model you have. 

reginos:

"Exclusivity and Glamour"

Exclusive is something catering to a wealthy clientele and exclusivity is a symbol of wealth. Glamour is an exciting but often illusory and romantic attractiveness.

In the context of an automobile I (and many others) don't give a damn about such attributes.

What counts for me is the engineering integrity, the driving pleasure to be derived , the smile I put on my face every time I sit in my car and the relationship I can build with my car. Such a car could be a VW Golf, a Mercedes , a Boxster or a Cayenne or a 911 or a Lamborghini or a Ferrari etc etc. Price and production numbers per se don't count.

We don't choose cars using the same criteria that (some) girls choose their handbags.

And another +1 

The truth behind the Macan (or why the Dacia Duster is the better car)...

Read the whole story: http://www.worldcarfans.com/114041073124/porsche-macan-gets-stuck-during-press-event-in-morocco

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The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

This is what happens when Porsche tells the press that off-roading is no problem...on high performance tires. 

Porsche should provide cars for the street driving and other cars, with off-road tires, for off-road driving during press events. Or they should leave the off-road driving away or have it done by professional drivers only, who know the car's limitations with high performance tires.

The Dacia Duster photo will, of course, embarrass Porsche (and the Macan) and this is something Porsche really doesn't want to happen. On the other hand, Macan buyers could care less, on the other hand, potential nay-sayers and luxury SUV haters will make fun of the Macan, using the above photo.

Personally, if I had a Macan, I couldn't care less. A friend of mine was one stuck with his Cayenne (955) in deep snow and they had him towed out of it with a...tractor. So who cares? Would I want to drive a tractor or a Dacia Duster because of that? No way. Never. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

This looks to me like driver error.  The back bumper is resting on the dirt, implying that at least one rear wheel is not touching the ground.  I suppose the Macan driver didn't see the potential problem or was not watching what he was doing.  This particular situation wold not likely be solved with better tires, or even a different vehicle.  I imagine the Dacia Duster would have suffered a similar fate if it had chosen the route this Macan did.

But why a Dacia Duster????? Surely another Macan could have helped out here??

991 (what a car!) XC90 - 120 Cab - 2 kids, 1 dog

bridggar:

But why a Dacia Duster????? Surely another Macan could have helped out here??

I know, right!    Did they only have the one Macan?  

GM Austin:

bridggar:

But why a Dacia Duster????? Surely another Macan could have helped out here??

I know, right!    Did they only have the one Macan?  

Safe before sorry. Two stuck Macans would have been too much for the Duster to pull out 

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

bluelines:

Safe before sorry. Two stuck Macans would have been too much for the Duster to pull out 

Sorry but this is disastrous for the image of the Macan and even for Porsche. This picture will go viral mark my words.

2012 Cayenne S White/Espresso 

Ex: 993 Targa, 986S, 986 and 964 C2

All dressed up the Macan looks quite nice...

http://www.carscoops.com/2014/04/porsche-exclusive-individualized-macan.html

2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2012 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab. Range Rover V8 on order June14 - GT3 or Huracan to add next......decisions decisions decisions.....

I had a test drive in a Macan 3.0 Diesel this morning. About 45 minutes on a mixed route.

Visually the car looked good but I cannot say I was thrilled. However, many people there, coming from other brands found the unusual shape very exciting and sporty.  It was black with stainless steel plates front and rear and 21" wheels. The inside (full leather black) is very good quality in fit and finish and tasteful. Passenger space is normal for the class and the luggage area adequate. Two tall people cannot sit in great comfort one behind the other but one average and one tall can find comfort.

It was very easy to find speeds of around 180km/h without any impression of going fast. The PDK worked smoothly in both Auto and Manual. The new steering wheel looks nice and it is the right size with pleasant paddle shift. Wind noise was subdued (sound system off) but tyre noise was noticeable.

The handling is extremely safe in spirited driving but there was roll and a tendency for the front to understeer abruptly on tight bends (like on slip roads) at over 100-120km/h . Nothing dangerous but weird feeling. No one else noticed it, however! Perhaps, it is because I had a spirited run of some 70 kms in the 911 before the test drive and I didn't adjust completely. Steering inputs felt sporty for a SUV and 10 times superior to my Audi Q5.

The ride on air suspension was excellent on all types of pavement in spite of the 21" wheels. IMO air suspension is a must. However, I could find much difference between Sport and Sport Plus.

The odd thing with the diesel is that I was not allowed to shift to 2nd gear from 3rd at will and the quick upshift due to the low rev limit of this type of engine.

Price in Cyprus is very reasonable at 59.000 EUR (similar to Germany) before discounts and within the reach of premium brand buyers,  due to zero tax because of the low emissions. The petrol models are much dearer, the S is 75.000 EUR and the Turbo 95.000 EUR. So for time being the Diesel S is the sweet spot of the small range.

Would I buy one? I haven't thought about it in depth but definitely I wouldn't give the 911 for the Macan with the logic that with the SUV you get two cars in one. As a daily car for my wife, perhaps but I'd wait for the 4 cylinders for that type of use.

The Macan has a great degree of Porscheness for a SUV or even a small sedan and it is better to drive than any small SUV in the market, but it is no sports car. There is plenty of speed (and more so in the petrol models) and good handling to satisfy any normal driver but the experience is blunted.

"Form follows function"

Great report Reginos.  Thanks!  

SportCarGroup:

... Brand exclusivity and glamor died with Cayenne....and final shot to the head was the Macan.... Not sure about Panamera, but it turned Porsche to look more like VW and Audi as well.

Interestingly, regarding the Panamera, if you cruise around to the various Porsche related forums on the web, there is, like here, almost no activity on the Panamera related forums/threads. There just seems to be no enthusiasm related to the Panamera, even though the sales numbers have been pretty decent. The lack of enthusiasm for the Panamera could be Porsche's biggest problem, especially if it were to spread to other models.

apias:

SportCarGroup:

... Brand exclusivity and glamor died with Cayenne....and final shot to the head was the Macan.... Not sure about Panamera, but it turned Porsche to look more like VW and Audi as well.

Interestingly, regarding the Panamera, if you cruise around to the various Porsche related forums on the web, there is, like here, almost no activity on the Panamera related forums/threads. There just seems to be no enthusiasm related to the Panamera, even though the sales numbers have been pretty decent. The lack of enthusiasm for the Panamera could be Porsche's biggest problem, especially if it were to spread to other models.

Perhaps, this is because it is not the type of car bought by enthusiasts who post on forums, but by people who want a good car and can afford one. I see no problem in that.

For a manufacturer i suppose it is better if people buy the cars instead of talking about them endlessly on the internet.

--

"Form follows function"

reginos:

Perhaps, this is because it is not the type of car bought by enthusiasts who post on forums, but by people who want a good car and can afford one. I see no problem in that.

For a manufacturer i suppose it is better if people buy the cars instead of talking about them endlessly on the internet.

Well, yes, it is generally better for the manufacturer to have people buying them rather than just talking about them, but, in the context of whether, "Porsche is loosing its mojo," or not subthread, it's still an interesting data point. It may well be, and probably is, as you point out, that it's simply being bought by people that want a good car and can afford one, but doesn't that tend to support the argument that the brand identity is shifting?

The sportscar market has changed over the years and there is likely more opportunity to sell Macans than a new lower priced Porsche sports car.  Porsche probably can't afford to exist and evolve on just 911 and Boxster sales. The up front costs of r/d ,retooling, marketing for new models is probably way higher as a percentile of new product cost than it was years ago and without higher volume sales, like a Macan type vehicle can bring them, well you get the picture.

apias:

reginos:

Perhaps, this is because it is not the type of car bought by enthusiasts who post on forums, but by people who want a good car and can afford one. I see no problem in that.

For a manufacturer i suppose it is better if people buy the cars instead of talking about them endlessly on the internet.

Well, yes, it is generally better for the manufacturer to have people buying them rather than just talking about them, but, in the context of whether, "Porsche is loosing its mojo," or not subthread, it's still an interesting data point. It may well be, and probably is, as you point out, that it's simply being bought by people that want a good car and can afford one, but doesn't that tend to support the argument that the brand identity is shifting?

I think the "new" models are being bought by a variety of people in a variety of markets worldwide and mean different things to different buyers. People in China, India or Russia for example, who buy a Cayenne or a Panamera view the name Porsche differently than someone who grew up with the 911s and the 928s.

However, I believe the sports models still have their allure in spite of the competition becoming stiffer all the time.

"Form follows function"

OK, time for a grenade.

IMO sports cars will move into a smaller niche market. With the general competence of the Macan as a road car and the draconian policing of roads in the Western world it is difficult for the normal person to justify saving for and purchasing a 911.  The 911 used to be affordable to the enthusiast, now, not so much.

Woolfe:

OK, time for a grenade.

 

IMO sports cars will move into a smaller niche market. With the general competence of the Macan as a road car and the draconian policing of roads in the Western world it is difficult for the normal person to justify saving for and purchasing a 911.  The 911 used to be affordable to the enthusiast, now, not so much.

with the depreciation of newer 911s, they have become affordable.

esp P dealers arent discounting the Macans, one have to question, Macan Turbo or 997S? 

BMW 1 M + C63 (gone).   997.2 GT3

The Macan is a very well engineered small SUV that drives very well and could also easily take the role of a performance saloon/sedan, but it is no substitute for a 911 in terms of interaction and feel.

However, I can envisage that many buyers who don't use their sports cars properly, might go for something like the Macan Turbo or the future Turbo S have lots of speed and save a lot of money.

In the end he who pays chooses.

"Form follows function"

Hmm... I disagree with you. Macan IS a reengineered Q5. Nothing less and nothing more. Even option order codes are the same as on Audi option order system.

Yes, Macan is "sportier" then Q5 but... Is this really a ultimate goal? To have very "sporty" and(in compariosn to other SUVs from the same class size) track capable SUV?

For comparions Macan S Diesel is with comparable options way more expensive then fully loaded SQ5 TDI or X3 3.5d.

BTW, Q5 is more capable on off road then Macan, despite what Porsche claims id their brochures and press literature.

Last word from me-very good friend of mine decided to get Macan S Diesel as a replacement for his GLK. In his words:"...finally I will own Porsche! I also hope that they introduce smaller 3 series size cars with Diesel engine in near future. 100% for sure I would buy one for my wife!"

Enough for me... Is this kind of buyer Porsche is seeking for its future models? In that case Porsche brand image is going down the toilet.. Of course, IMHO.

KresoF1:

BTW, Q5 is more capable on off road then Macan, despite what Porsche claims id their brochures and press literature.

Not necessarily disagreeing, just curious, how did you reach this conclusion?

GM Austin:

KresoF1:

BTW, Q5 is more capable on off road then Macan, despite what Porsche claims id their brochures and press literature.

Not necessarily disagreeing, just curious, how did you reach this conclusion?

Little bird from Audi told me that.

Seriously, check out technical layout of AWD used by Audi and the one used by Macan and then draw your own conclusion.

The Macan drives definitely significantly better then the Q5 and the X3. These cars are used 95% on the road and off roading is not an issue really in the decision. However, tyres are an important factor and the Macan could be ordered with All season tyres M+S that are better in snow and soft off-roading compared to normal road tyres.

In our market the Macan S Diesel is 200EUR cheaper than the Q5 3.0 TDI, which makes the decision very easy.

Brand image? This is a serious question and VW management must do a difficult balancing act, that's true.

Q: Kreso, when you get your AMG GT, why you won't mind the A class of the girls in your neighbourhood, your airport E- class taxi, your local M-B bus and the Sprinter Van that delivers your goods, which will be of the same brand

--

"Form follows function"

... and ground clearance, compared with the Macan with air suspension, how does that compare?

reginos:

The Macan drives definitely significantly better then the Q5 and the X3. These cars are used 95% on the road and off roading is not an issue really in the decision. However, tyres are an important factor and the Macan could be ordered with All season tyres M+S that are better in snow and soft off-roading compared to normal road tyres.

In our market the Macan S Diesel is 200EUR cheaper than the Q5 3.0 TDI, which makes the decision very easy.

Brand image? This is a serious question and VW management must do a difficult balancing act, that's true.

Q: Kreso, when you get your AMG GT, why you won't mind the A class of the girls in your neighbourhood, your airport E- class taxi, your local M-B bus and the Sprinter Van that delivers your goods, which will be of the same brand

--

"Form follows function"

I wont get AMG GT, at least not this year. Something from 991range will be in my garage soon...

In Cyprus Q5 3.0 TDI with 245ps is 200€ more expensive then Macan S Diesel? Check out prices in Germany. On my market SQ5 TDI with more or less same options is cheaper then Macan S Diesel.

Regarding brand image... Mercedes is NOT sportscar manufacturer, Porsche is percepted by 95% of potential costumers as sportcar brand.

Problem for me lies in describing Macan as "sporty" SUV or track capable SUV. I simply hate that "sporty" thing. Why not saying that Macan is the car with best drive dynamics in its class? That wouzld be prefectly acceptable by me.

GM Austin:

... and ground clearance, compared with the Macan with air suspension, how does that compare?

Macan is better here, but only with air suspension.

Regarding AWD layout check it out. Difference are pretty interesting...

KresoF1:

reginos:

The Macan drives definitely significantly better then the Q5 and the X3. These cars are used 95% on the road and off roading is not an issue really in the decision. However, tyres are an important factor and the Macan could be ordered with All season tyres M+S that are better in snow and soft off-roading compared to normal road tyres.

In our market the Macan S Diesel is 200EUR cheaper than the Q5 3.0 TDI, which makes the decision very easy.

Brand image? This is a serious question and VW management must do a difficult balancing act, that's true.

Q: Kreso, when you get your AMG GT, why you won't mind the A class of the girls in your neighbourhood, your airport E- class taxi, your local M-B bus and the Sprinter Van that delivers your goods, which will be of the same brand

--

"Form follows function"

I wont get AMG GT, at least not this year. Something from 991range will be in my garage soon...

Very good thinking

In Cyprus Q5 3.0 TDI with 245ps is 200€ more expensive then Macan S Diesel? Check out prices in Germany. On my market SQ5 TDI with more or less same options is cheaper then Macan S Diesel.

I was surprised myself!

Regarding brand image... Mercedes is NOT sportscar manufacturer, Porsche is percepted by 95% of potential costumers as sportcar brand.

Porsche is a sports car manufacturer that has diverted (very successfully) into other segments for financial reasons. If you ask me all struggling smaller manufacturers deep down envy Porsche. Mercedes is not a sports car manufacturer but makes some sport-looking cars and one sports car. I am personally not into image but if this the question the 911 loses less in image compared to a Cayenne or a Macan than the SLS AMG compared to delivery van or a taxi. But people will continue to buy both (or the new SLS) because they are excellent cars and this is what matters.

Problem for me lies in describing Macan as "sporty" SUV or track capable SUV. I simply hate that "sporty" thing. Why not saying that Macan is the car with best drive dynamics in its class? That wouzld be prefectly acceptable by me.

I agree that "sporty" is a very abused term. Similarly "supercar", "exotic" and "exclusive".

--

"Form follows function"

I saw a rhodium silver Macan today with the new Agate interior. It wore the standard 18" (which didn't look out of place but bigger would have been better) with air suspension.

It looked very attractive. I liked it

"Form follows function"

Woolfe:

OK, time for a grenade.

 

IMO sports cars will move into a smaller niche market. With the general competence of the Macan as a road car and the draconian policing of roads in the Western world it is difficult for the normal person to justify saving for and purchasing a 911.  The 911 used to be affordable to the enthusiast, now, not so much.

+1.

And add to that the sorry state of the roads in many localities. I don't know what it is, perhaps less money available to maintain and fix infrastructure, perhaps the impact of heavier cars (your typical family sedan now weighs 3600 lbs and more). Whatever it is, driving anything but an SUV is becoming an exercise in pothole avoidance. And the very low profile tires and heavy offset wheel designs on modern sports car don't help either.

KMM:

 The 911 used to be affordable to the enthusiast, now, not so much.

This not true, everywhere at least.

For example a Carrera (pre-964) in 1988 was selling for £38.000 in the UK. This was the equivalent of £71.000 today using the inflation calculation technique. That car was devoid of any equipment except a radio/cassette perhaps. A/C, leather and other amenities were huge luxury extras and things like ABS, ASR/PSM hadn't been widely used. There wasn't even a mechanical LSD as standard.

If you consider that today a 991 Carrera with plenty of kit as standard costs £73.000 (and I think that  taxes relevant to cars are higher today)  and a Carrera S  £83.000, this makes the modern cars much better value.

Perhaps, in the USA things are different.

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"Form follows function"