Crown

BTW, is 8-9 GT3 engines a day all that Porsche can build?

nberry:

frayed:

Nick, you are talking subrogation.  I don't think the stop drive order is an absolute bar to your insurance company recovering from PAG/PCNA.  IIRC, the 'stop drive' is a recommendation only, as PCNA is on record stating that it's not a directive.

 I intentionally did not use the term subrogation because most of our readers are not lawyers.

Porsche cannot prevent owners from driving their cars. But they can warn that by driving the car it could cause a fire. If a fire did occur and the insurance company came to Porsche to collect what it paid out, if you were representing Porsche would you recommend Porsche pay the claim?

Of course not.

But that doesn't mean that if pushed, your ins company wouldn't prevail.  But I'm not an expert in insurance law.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

RC:

reginos:

Porsche dealers have some of the highest margins in the industry, as far as I know. So, they have to take the good with the bad.

Where do you have this myth from? In Germany, the margins are very very bad.

Margins for US Porsche dealers on the 991 or 981 are 10% on base price and 15% on options.  For example, a 991 Carrera 4S with a base MSRP of $105,630 has an invoice of $95,067.  An option like 'Paint-to-Sample' at MSRP of $5,500 would have an invoice of $4,675.  There are additional financial compensation to dealer PRINCIPALS (owners) that may have to do with meeting specific sales goals, J.D. Power 'positive' consumer feedback, etc.  However, many of these 'holdbacks' are so secretive, not even the general manager of a Porsche dealership truly knows what those dollar figures really are!   

Currently, the largest profit center at a US Porsche dealership is their 'Used Cars' sales, followed by the Service & Parts Department.  Most dealer/principals will hit true 'pay dirt' when they sell their dealerships, especially if its a prestigious & established brand like Porsche.  The yearly profit & loss statements of Porsche dealers in the US are usually not that impressive.  A big variable is always the ownership & value of the land where the dealership is located.  In addition, Porsche's insists on specific architecture and design layouts for the modernistic uniform 'look' of Porsche dealerships worldwide, which is extremely costly to owners.  Plus no more 'shared-showroom' with other brands the dealer might own.  It's not easy being a US Porsche dealer....

Saludos, 

Eduardo (Carmel, CA)

That is what I have been told, they normally have one line producing 3 engines a day but now added two lines. Then you have to look at your supplier and whether they can ramp up also so guess things are ramping up. If you do the math with all the engines to be changed we arrived pretty much at then of May, it also depends on shift.

also more important Porsche asked each dealer if they had priority in delivery the engine so I guess depending upon your dealer and it's weight across Porsche and if he likes you might have quicker delivery. As far as our dealer he did not set preferences as half of the gt3, he sold 16, are friends and then we will get annoyed. Therefore we will get the engines based on the delivery date, mine was late November, 3rd in line. Funny I ordered the same day at Geneva motor show as a friend, but remember last year all gt3 were pushed by months and got the lift system in which is very useful especially now with a lower car. My friend got his a day earlier without the lift, at the end found it funny. Now back to engine the only thing I asked was last week of April so that can go to the Mugello.

as far as the indemnity and loaner, I did not request one and don't know if the indemnity will be adjusted down, I guess so. You can argue that it is not the same car, bla bla. And they should not deduct Since the dealer is a friend and we are too many we did not opt for the loaner. If we want a car we just ask one for couple days just as friend and free of charge. Then he also invited us twice in nice restaurant. At the end the information you get as well as the treatment is really based on your dealer relationship with you and Porsche.

As soon as the engine are in we will all forget this...and Start Your Engines...

DaveC:

Anyone thinking that any insurance company will cover a loss due to a known hazard disregarded by the claimant is living on another planet. 

If every time we got a recall notice we stop driving there will be millions of cars grounded while insurance companies keep withdrawing premium from our accounts every month. I just got another recall notice on my Toyota. Will I stop driving, absolutely NOT. If it burns they will pay one way or another as long as I am paying premium.

philgva:

@Gnil - tu es sur Vaud... je travaille sur Morges...

Entre Morges et Lausanne ;-)  Maybe we can meet some day 

Interesting to read first hand reviews on the GT3 , specially driven like that 

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

With pleasure wait mid may so that I get the baby back

nberry:

BTW, is 8-9 GT3 engines a day all that Porsche can build?

Theoretically, no. Porsche have a lot of engine builders, maybe not all of them are qualified to build GT3 engines, but you will have to imagine they have more than 4-5 qualified technicians. If one figures one builder can do 2 per 8 hr shift from start to finish. That's 10 already. 

Engine shop also makes others engines, so if Porsche really wants to, they can shift the whole production to GT3 to increase output.  But would they? Also, can parts supply keeps up? Parts supply could be the limiting factor.

Wasn't aware they are hand built. That certainly will slow things down.

nberry:

Wasn't aware they are hand built. That certainly will slow things down.

The 991 GT3 a part hand built on the normal 991 engine assembly line. The days of "one man one engine" are something of the past...

The engine runs on the line through the different work stations - the line from start to the finish is about 200m long. At the end every engine ist tested.

Last tuesday on the factory tour I have seen about about 150  991 engines with the silver oil cooler in a corner of the engine building - I don´t know, if these were new spec or the old version.

But as I wrote last week - the GT3 engine is again on the production line...

The 918 engine is a different story - here: one man - one engine. Out of my memory of the factory-tour last week, they told us, that it takes about 20 hours to built one 918 engine.

Blueflame

Doesn't the engine builder follow "his" engine at the various stages on the assembly line? That's how it was some years ago when I was on a visit in Stuttgart. Perhaps, things are different now?

"Form follows function"

reginos:

Doesn't the engine builder follow "his" engine at the various stages on the assembly line? That's how it was some years ago when I was on a visit in Stuttgart. Perhaps, things are different now?

A lot of things have changed. They also "dry-test" (pressure) the engines now, no more real engine running (only a few samples testing for random quality checks). According to internal statistics, engine build quality has increased over years and failures/problems have decreased. So quality definitely improved, even if the current GT3 engine issues may tell a different story. I guess it was a limited event...sh.t happens. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

reginos:

Doesn't the engine builder follow "his" engine at the various stages on the assembly line? That's how it was some years ago when I was on a visit in Stuttgart. Perhaps, things are different now?

Yes, they changed that some years ago.

Each engine builder has his own work station on the line - but they change the work stations from time to time.

RC mentioned the "Pressure Test" - that´s correct, no "hot test" anymore. The factory tour was at 14.00 - on that production day, no engine had a problem during testing - you could see this on the test-monitor.

Blueflame

I should arrange a new visit, I think!

"Form follows function"

reginos:

Doesn't the engine builder follow "his" engine at the various stages on the assembly line? That's how it was some years ago when I was on a visit in Stuttgart. Perhaps, things are different now?

AMG still do that but really it's marketing more than anything else. 

blueflame:

 

The 991 GT3 a part hand built on the normal 991 engine assembly line. The days of "one man one engine" are something of the past...

The engine runs on the line through the different work stations - the line from start to the finish is about 200m long. At the end every engine ist tested.

Last tuesday on the factory tour I have seen about about 150  991 engines with the silver oil cooler in a corner of the engine building - I don´t know, if these were new spec or the old version.

But as I wrote last week - the GT3 engine is again on the production line...

The 918 engine is a different story - here: one man - one engine. Out of my memory of the factory-tour last week, they told us, that it takes about 20 hours to built one 918 engine.

Blueflame

Ah, didn't know Porsche build the GT3 engines on the regular line now.

I have seen the regular engine line on one of the TV shows about building 911s. It's just like a car production line with separate stations doing a specify job.

From the now deleted 918 factory tour on youtube, the guide mentioned each 918 engine is build from start to finish by one person. 

I wonder if I can specifically ask to have the builder's name on my engine? The say the Arabs and Americans have a problem with women building their engine, I on the other hand won't mind and would be happy to see if one women did indeed build my engine haha.

WAY:

reginos:

Doesn't the engine builder follow "his" engine at the various stages on the assembly line? That's how it was some years ago when I was on a visit in Stuttgart. Perhaps, things are different now?

AMG still do that but really it's marketing more than anything else. 

You mean when an AMG has "Hand built by Bob" on it, Bob was actually a robot?

RS60 Spyder, 991 GT3 RS pending... :(

Just got a call from the dealer. The car production date for my GT3 has been postponed from April to October which means that I'm going to cancel my order. If I knew that earlier I could have booked an early slot for a Huracan. Now I have to either switch to a Turbo S with June production or not get a new car at all.

That really is a big fail for Porsche. Maybe they are too busy planning their next 4-cylinder diesel vehicles for desperate housewives instead of managing expectations and finding a better solution for the customers that are buying their most signature product.

I wish Ferrari had a fresh model in this segment...

6 months is pretty long delay - sorry to hear that!

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

458 special would be a nice GT3 replacement...

Herbaliser:

Just got a call from the dealer. The car production date for my GT3 has been postponed from April to October which means that I'm going to cancel my order. If I knew that earlier I could have booked an early slot for a Huracan. Now I have to either switch to a Turbo S with June production or not get a new car at all.

That really is a big fail for Porsche. Maybe they are too busy planning their next 4-cylinder diesel vehicles for desperate housewives instead of managing expectations and finding a better solution for the customers that are buying their most signature product.

I wish Ferrari had a fresh model in this segment...

They certainly have less focus on sports cars as they grow the Porsche is a Luxury brand customer segments.  One could conclude the gt3 engine problems were caused by selling macans to secretaries just like mercedes

 We no longer matter very much to them as our customer percentage shrinks.  The autoextremist view that someone listed earlier sums it up

http://www.autoextremist.com/current/2013/11/19/the-new-porsche-wants-it-all.html

boytronic:

WAY:

reginos:

Doesn't the engine builder follow "his" engine at the various stages on the assembly line? That's how it was some years ago when I was on a visit in Stuttgart. Perhaps, things are different now?

AMG still do that but really it's marketing more than anything else. 

You mean when an AMG has "Hand built by Bob" on it, Bob was actually a robot?

all AMG engines are assembled by 1 person .. their engine factory is very impressive and well worth a visit

I think Nissan GT-R is built by one guy too.  And you can pay extra and build your high-end Corvette motor yourself (assisted by expert) at the factory.

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Grant:

I think Nissan GT-R is built by one guy too.  And you can pay extra and build your high-end Corvette motor yourself (assisted by expert) at the factory.

I wouldn't trust myself to build a motor that will go into my own car haha.

watt:

 

They certainly have less focus on sports cars as they grow the Porsche is a Luxury brand customer segments.  One could conclude the gt3 engine problems were caused by selling macans to secretaries just like mercedes

 We no longer matter very much to them as our customer percentage shrinks.  The autoextremist view that someone listed earlier sums it up

http://www.autoextremist.com/current/2013/11/19/the-new-porsche-wants-it-all.html

I completely agree with the author of this article. Now that I won't get the GT3, I am looking at McLaren MC12 Spider and I saw some interesting offers - 200k EUR for a 1 month old car with 1000 km...That's cheaper than a Turbo S Cab.

Porsche 991 GT3 RS prototype testing at the Nurburgring...

Porsche 991 GT3 RS prototype testing at the Nurburgring -- Gallery Link

I was told by someone with connections to Porsche that the GT3 uses titanium con rods but they were secured in place with the normal steel con rod bolts from the Carrera engine. These couldn't be secured on the titanium and worked loose with usage and the higher revs, with the known results of crankcase failure, spilled oil and fire. This is supposed to be the root of the problem.

He didn't know the remedy to be applied. Different type/material of bolts? Same bolts but locked into place using some type of adhesive? Something else?

"Form follows function"

reginos:

I was told by someone with connections to Porsche that the GT3 uses titanium con rods but they were secured in place with the normal steel con rod bolts from the Carrera engine. These couldn't be secured on the titanium and worked loose with usage and the higher revs, with the known results of crankcase failure, spilled oil and fire. This is supposed to be the root of the problem.

He didn't know the remedy to be applied. Different type/material of bolts? Same bolts but locked into place using some type of adhesive? Something else?

The GT3s have used titanium conrods since the first 996 version, so nothing new in that respect. I don't remember for sure offhand if the conrod bolts on earlier versions were also titanium, or steel.    
Titanium screw connections can be a little tricky, calling for a very special (and very expensive!) grease to be used during their assembly as well as for fastening torque to be strictly adhered to, to ensure that the bolts are not overstressed if torque is too high or the bolts do not vibrate loose if the torque is too low. 

Since Porsche has been assembling production GT3 engines with titanium conrods for the last 15 years (and much longer than that in racing engines) I'd be surprised if they have now suddenly forgotten how to do it properly. 

For this reason I had suspected that maybe the torque calibration of a tool used to assemble some of the customer engine conrods may have been outside normal tolerances, resulting in the two failures of the conrod screw connections we have heard about. Since it would probably not have been possible to reliably identify the engines assembled with incorrect fastening torques, a simple error like that could result in all engines having to be replaced to rule out further problems. 

fritz

Fritz, that makes a lot of sense. But one would think that the torque calibration issue could have been identified early on and which engines were involved. Am I missing something?