Crown

RC:

If something happens, the owner of the car will be in huge legal trouble.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

How so? At least in the US, should the car catastrophically fail, insurance would almost surely cover the loss.  Also, should the engine fail  without consequent fire damage, I believe Porsche would still be on the hook for replacing the motor. Again, here in the US, Porsche cars North America has clarified that there is no absolute directive that owners must stop driving their cars. Rather, it is strongly recommended. Consequently, the warranty should still remain intact. 

To me, the real risk, is creating bad will between you and your dealer, and between you and Porsche.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

frayed:

RC:

If something happens, the owner of the car will be in huge legal trouble.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

How so? At least in the US, should the car catastrophically fail, insurance would almost surely cover the loss.  Also, should the engine fail  without consequent fire damage, I believe Porsche would still be on the hook for replacing the motor. Again, here in the US, Porsche cars North America has clarified that there is no absolute directive that owners must stop driving their cars. Rather, it is strongly recommended. Consequently, the warranty should still remain intact. 

 

To me, the real risk, is creating bad will between you and your dealer, and between you and Porsche.

I don't know about US laws but since there has been an official recall and Porsche specifically asked owners not to use their car anymore, the liability is actually with the owners now. Of course a witty lawyer could argue in various ways but I'm not sure it would stick in court. Don't underestimate the legal "power" of an official recall, especially when the manufacturer asked owners NOT to use their cars anymore for safety reasons.

Would you want to risk it? Just imagine the car catches fire at a fuel station, the fuel station goes up in flames and the damage goes into the millions (not even talking about possible deaths and legal repercussions from these deaths)...

Whoever still uses his/her 991 GT3 is stupid, really really stupid. Sorry to say that.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Let's say Porsche is satisfied with the fix and now needs to produce replacement engines for 785 cars. How long do you think that would take? If they are producing all Porsche engines in one location, is it conceivable they would halt production of engines other than the GT3's assuming they have the parts?

nizer:

Jean:

What are those stripes going across from the hood to the roofline?

 I believe those are actually raised center sections on the roof and hood, which rumor suggests will be carbon fiber.  They could be to add stiffness to these panels or purely cosmetic or something else entirely.  All just guessing at the moment.

 I thought the rumors indicated Titanium pieces on the roof?

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73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

igirl:

458 Speciale: 9.200 rpm??

9200rpm 

J.Seven

nberry:

Let's say Porsche is satisfied with the fix and now needs to produce replacement engines for 785 cars. How long do you think that would take? If they are producing all Porsche engines in one location, is it conceivable they would halt production of engines other than the GT3's assuming they have the parts?

As far as I heard, they already started production of "some" engines and they will be tested, then the main production starts. Not sure if this is accurate but I expect a full scale engine production resuming soon. Still could take weeks for the engines to make it to dealers, logistics and all. Also, many dealers can't just stop all the work in their repair shops and install GT3 engines. There is some planning needed.

Also, as an interesting side story (not sure if this is true but this is what I've been told): Whatever loaner the dealerships or Porsche gave customers (in many cases, they received 991 Turbo or Turbo S loaners), Porsche reimburses the dealers with a fixed daily rate, which is ridiculously low (compared to the car category). So in the end, the dealers are actually "paying" for Porsche's mistake. Like I said...not sure how true this is but I heard it from three different sources, so there must be some truth in it. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Porsche dealers have some of the highest margins in the industry, as far as I know. So, they have to take the good with the bad.

"Form follows function"

reginos:

Porsche dealers have some of the highest margins in the industry, as far as I know. So, they have to take the good with the bad.

Where do you have this myth from? In Germany, the margins are very very bad.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

reginos:

Porsche dealers have some of the highest margins in the industry, as far as I know. So, they have to take the good with the bad.

Where do you have this myth from? In Germany, the margins are very very bad.

 fully agree..maybe in the US and RUS margins are higher..but I know that in many European countries the situation isnt that good. Many Porsche dealers are now surviving and earning money only because of their workshop. Ask a Porsche dealer Head just one question: "if you had to choose of closing down the sales or the worksop of your dealership for 6 weeks - which one would it be?" If he closes the workshop for 6 weeks he´ll be bankrupt - without any doubt.

Its a pitty that again the Porhsche dealers are paying for Porsche´s mistakes. Many people have this "hate relationship" with Porsche dealers..I don´t. I dont envy Porsche dealers anymore these days..

RC:

reginos:

Porsche dealers have some of the highest margins in the industry, as far as I know. So, they have to take the good with the bad.

Where do you have this myth from? In Germany, the margins are very very bad.

By deduction, since PAG have some of the highest profits in the industry.

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"Form follows function"

reginos:

RC:

reginos:

Porsche dealers have some of the highest margins in the industry, as far as I know. So, they have to take the good with the bad.

Where do you have this myth from? In Germany, the margins are very very bad.

By deduction, since PAG have some of the highest profits in the industry.

 

 

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"Form follows function"

 but PAG has NOTHING to do with the Porsche centers - in terms of margins..its like a franchising..McDonalds may still earn a lot - but your local McDonalds might be close to brankruptcy...

J.Seven:

igirl:

458 Speciale: 9.200 rpm??

9200rpm 

That was my error - it seems to be 9k, like the Italia.

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Agree with Frayed. I am pretty darn sure insurance will cover it if you drive it and it catches fire. They be more concern about personal injury than paying off a burnt out car.

Christian, my dealer only has received two cars so far and be more than happy to take this job. Service departments are hungry for this type of work.

nberry:

Let's say Porsche is satisfied with the fix and now needs to produce replacement engines for 785 cars. How long do you think that would take? If they are producing all Porsche engines in one location, is it conceivable they would halt production of engines other than the GT3's assuming they have the parts?

Nick, did the dealer say or know how and if the delay is going to affect the model year designation in the US? Is your car going to be a 2014 or 15?, if its a 14 and gets delivered close to may/june, isnt that too close to the usual 2015 model release? just wondering since i remember i got my 07 TT in june of 2006...... 

2011 CTT, 2013 12C Spider, 2013 A5 cab, 2014 4Runner Trail Edition

reginos:

RC:

reginos:

Porsche dealers have some of the highest margins in the industry, as far as I know. So, they have to take the good with the bad.

Where do you have this myth from? In Germany, the margins are very very bad.

By deduction, since PAG have some of the highest profits in the industry.

Most dealerships are not owned by Porsche and their margins are really bad compared to the profit Porsche actually makes. This is something I never understood because it also predefines how dealerships "behave" with their customers. The more money they would earn, the better they would take care of customers but nowadays, things look different. I have certain expectations when I go to my dealership but I kind of have the feeling they are only that "nice" because they fear me in a way or another because of my involvement with Porsche and Rennteam and so on. I talk to other customers and I know how bad things can be...if they don't care.  I hear the same stories from other dealerships, so this seems to be common over here.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

silverrules:

Christian, my dealer only has received two cars so far and be more than happy to take this job. Service departments are hungry for this type of work.

You know that Porsche only reimburses for a fixed predefined amount of work hours? Also, your dealer gets a fixed amount of compensation for loaners they provide for affected customers. Overall, not really the best deal if you ask me. Maybe you should talk to the owner of the dealership and not the guys who work in the service department who usually don't have a clue about gain margins.  I also cannot exclude the PCNA is more "generous" than Porsche Germany but I doubt it.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

silverrules:

Agree with Frayed. I am pretty darn sure insurance will cover it if you drive it and it catches fire. They be more concern about personal injury than paying off a burnt out car.

In Germany, insurance wouldn't cover anything because there was an official recall and owners were officially asked not to use their cars anymore.

I actually doubt that US insurances would act differently, Nick (he is a lawyer) actually already pointed into the right direction, so I would be VERY VERY careful. Especially in the US. You could loose everything, just by using a stupid car. Not worth it.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Anyone thinking that any insurance company will cover a loss due to a known hazard disregarded by the claimant is living on another planet. 

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

Hi all, I really enjoy the posts, just to give you a quick update from Switzerland. Talking with the Porsche Switzerland and also the center, there are 2 additional production lines for the engine. So give or take 8-9 engines per day for WW. One thing is sure that all cars will be done by end of May, ok that is late but still lots of track in the rest of the year. In terms of date we will know more next week, so I could still be ok for the Mugello early may, let's hope.

As far as indemnity, the Swiss owner will get Frs 225 per day. Note we already have as a standard 4 years warranty and don^t expect we will get an extra year. The most important aspect is that the engine get the matching vehicule number and to be hones, Frs 225 per day is decent for those who don't have a credit / leasing. Porsche will provide at the center the credit note so I will leave that amount there to cover the 2014 tracks, that is going to be ard $20K enough for couple to tires sets, pads, etc.

Got couple of friends, actually we are 8, from Geneva with the same problem, the good thing for me is that I had a run in December at Paul Ricard, that was a first test so I am less frustated than my lovely friends who register the car in Feb.

http://youtu.be/pWhkXf6pXJg

Since the Paul Ricard, really understeer car, I had some geometry done, Pagid pads, brake line done and last but not least new Pirelli Trofeo R. I did not like the Michelin Cup.

Cheers,

P.

DaveC:

Anyone thinking that any insurance company will cover a loss due to a known hazard disregarded by the claimant is living on another planet. 

According to your logic, every insurance company could essentially deny most every claim.  Is your statement based on general feelings, or can you back up your statement under relevant statutory framework or caselaw, that driving the GT 3 during the recall Will not be covered.

 In the US there are product recall exclusions and policies such as general commercial liability, I have yet to see such an exclusion in an automobile policy. On the other hand, most all policies already have exclusions for driving drunk or impaired, or using the vehicle on a race track. Using your logic, such exclusions are unnecessary, because insurance companies should be able to freely escape coverage for engaging in hazardous behavior.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

philgva:

Since the Paul Ricard, really understeer car, I had some geometry done, Pagid pads, brake line done and last but not least new Pirelli Trofeo R. I did not like the Michelin Cup.

Cheers,

P.

Are the trofeos offered in proper sizes for the GT 3? 

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

I work for a large auto insurer and can confirm that should the vehicle burn down and it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt that the fire was as a result of the current GT3 issue your claim would be repudiated. Most policies contain a general requirement to comply with all statutory requirements and manufacturer recommendations. You might get lucky and get the odd ex gratia payout based on a good track record with the insurer but don't count on it.

Any losses not related to the current GT3 issue should still be covered though. Say you drive it against the instruction of Porsche and make a normal accident it should still be covered as the GT3 issue would be immaterial to the loss.

My recommendation - don't drive it even if the odds of a fire is relatively low. If it burns down there will be issues because you have been cautioned not to drive it by the manufacturer.

yes the Trofeo are offered in the proper dimension, not really approved by Porsche but the center was ok with this.

philgva:

Hi all, I really enjoy the posts, just to give you a quick update from Switzerland. Talking with the Porsche Switzerland and also the center, there are 2 additional production lines for the engine. So give or take 8-9 engines per day for WW. One thing is sure that all cars will be done by end of May, ok that is late but still lots of track in the rest of the year. In terms of date we will know more next week, so I could still be ok for the Mugello early may, let's hope.

As far as indemnity, the Swiss owner will get Frs 225 per day. Note we already have as a standard 4 years warranty and don^t expect we will get an extra year. The most important aspect is that the engine get the matching vehicule number and to be hones, Frs 225 per day is decent for those who don't have a credit / leasing. Porsche will provide at the center the credit note so I will leave that amount there to cover the 2014 tracks, that is going to be ard $20K enough for couple to tires sets, pads, etc.

Got couple of friends, actually we are 8, from Geneva with the same problem, the good thing for me is that I had a run in December at Paul Ricard, that was a first test so I am less frustated than my lovely friends who register the car in Feb.

http://youtu.be/pWhkXf6pXJg

Since the Paul Ricard, really understeer car, I had some geometry done, Pagid pads, brake line done and last but not least new Pirelli Trofeo R. I did not like the Michelin Cup.

Cheers,

P.

Bienvenus ! And thanks for sharing your informations  .  Nice video ! How was it against the Turbo ? 

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

@philgva, Good to know on the trofeos.  Great tires.  Better for track than the MPSC's.

@cayman, my policy has no requirement for adhering to manufacturer recommendations as a condition for coverage.  As stated previously, auto policies are highly jurisdictional dependent although they tend to be highly regulated by state/fed regulatory agencies.  My old policy, for example, had no exclusion for the longest time for track use.  But eventually they wised up.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

philgva:

Hi all, I really enjoy the posts, just to give you a quick update from Switzerland. Talking with the Porsche Switzerland and also the center, there are 2 additional production lines for the engine. So give or take 8-9 engines per day for WW. One thing is sure that all cars will be done by end of May, ok that is late but still lots of track in the rest of the year. In terms of date we will know more next week, so I could still be ok for the Mugello early may, let's hope.

As far as indemnity, the Swiss owner will get Frs 225 per day. Note we already have as a standard 4 years warranty and don^t expect we will get an extra year. The most important aspect is that the engine get the matching vehicule number and to be hones, Frs 225 per day is decent for those who don't have a credit / leasing. Porsche will provide at the center the credit note so I will leave that amount there to cover the 2014 tracks, that is going to be ard $20K enough for couple to tires sets, pads, etc.

Got couple of friends, actually we are 8, from Geneva with the same problem, the good thing for me is that I had a run in December at Paul Ricard, that was a first test so I am less frustated than my lovely friends who register the car in Feb.

http://youtu.be/pWhkXf6pXJg

Since the Paul Ricard, really understeer car, I had some geometry done, Pagid pads, brake line done and last but not least new Pirelli Trofeo R. I did not like the Michelin Cup.

Cheers,

P.

Does the daily amount also include a loaner? Or, if they gave you a loaner would that reduce the daily amount they plan to give you?

Regarding Y2015 models, my understanding is cars yet to be built will be pushed back to allow engines to be sent to the cars that have already been built. All car yet to be built probably will be 2015 models. Porsche is aware of how that will impact those of us that have our cars already built and now need a replacement engine. The compensation package is suppose to address that issue.

Regarding insurance coverage, most carrier would have a difficult time declining coverage BECAUSE Porsche is not saying for certain a fire will occur. If it was for certain then insurance companies can easily decline coverage. That said, the insurance company can trigger a clause in some policies which state the insured shall not by his/her actions compromise potential recovery from third parties. Should an owner drive his GT3 which catches fire, his insurance company will pay but would be unable to collect from Porsche since Porsche told the insured not to drive the car.

@Gnil - tu es sur Vaud... je travaille sur Morges...

Well the Turbo, a friend is a 997 Techart, 650cv, 880nm with RSR suspension and other goodies. I was filming him for some memories but clearly the GT3 and/or me were faster even on straight line, thanks to the new PDK. And cornering there is no question that the balance of the 991 GT3 is amazing. I was testing the limit of the car and cleaerly the chassis was not properly set. I had the standard pad and liquid but now it is all prepared just awaing the new engine...I also got a rear exhaust from Cargaphic installed with a better sounds, it is looking promissing especially going up in the montain around home :) When I stop filming he could not keep the pace, i think at the end power if good but tires deteriorated much faster.

Nick, you are talking subrogation.  I don't think the stop drive order is an absolute bar to your insurance company recovering from PAG/PCNA.  IIRC, the 'stop drive' is a recommendation only, as PCNA is on record stating that it's not a directive.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

frayed:

Nick, you are talking subrogation.  I don't think the stop drive order is an absolute bar to your insurance company recovering from PAG/PCNA.  IIRC, the 'stop drive' is a recommendation only, as PCNA is on record stating that it's not a directive.

 I intentionally did not use the term subrogation because most of our readers are not lawyers.

Porsche cannot prevent owners from driving their cars. But they can warn that by driving the car it could cause a fire. If a fire did occur and the insurance company came to Porsche to collect what it paid out, if you were representing Porsche would you recommend Porsche pay the claim?