Crown

I'm thinking a few people have egg on their face this morning based on arguments 5 or so pages back... So much for supplier issues and no design fault! Ha!!

911rox:

I'm thinking a few people have egg on their face this morning based on arguments 5 or so pages back... So much for supplier issues and no design fault! Ha!!

Why would you say that?  The GT3 Titanium conrods are supplied to Porsche by an outside vendor, Pankl.  The rod bolts are likely from a different outside vendor.

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Boxster Coupe GTS:

Letter reportedly sent to 991 GT3 customers from PCNA on Monday 17 March 2014...

Dear Mr

 

As advised previously, engineers at Porsche AG have been conducting technical analysis of the Porsche 911 GT3 engine in order to find a solution to the problem which led us to recommend you stop driving your car.

 

This analysis is now completed, and we would like to inform you about the cause of the problem and the planned remedial actions.

 

As already communicated, two vehicles in Europe suffered engine damage, causing the vehicles to catch fire.

 

Analysis has revealed that in both cases the engine damage was caused by a loosened piston rod screw connection which damaged the crankcase. In order to avoid this in the future, an optimized screw connection is currently being tested. For the final validation of this solution, Porsche AG is currently carrying out extensive tests.

 

At Porsche we are rigorous when implementing an engineering solution, therefore, after the successful testing and validation we will be installing new engines with optimized piston rod screw connections in all 2014 Porsche 911 GT3 vehicles.

 

Due to the complexity of the necessary arrangement, we are currently unable to provide you with a specific workshop date for your Porsche 911 GT3. We will be arranging an appointment with you individually, as soon as the logistics planning is finalized. We will be providing you with additional information within the next three weeks.

 

We continue to remain committed to supporting your individual needs during this time.

 

Your personal contact person will make contact with you within the next days to discuss individual solutions to bridge the gap until you are reunited with your Porsche 911 GT3.

 

Thank you very much for your patience and your loyalty to the Porsche brand.

 

Kind regards,

 

Porsche Cars North America, Inc.
 

Grant, apart from the fact some dismissed the engine swap claim, the overwhelming belief was that this was a supplier failure yet clearly Porsche via their own admission are re-engineering and validating a fix so the issue clearly stops with them and their engineers... (see underlined in quote above)

They should have applied more red loctite on the screws. 

WAY:

They should have applied more red loctite on the screws. 

911rox:

I'm thinking a few people have egg on their face this morning based on arguments 5 or so pages back... So much for supplier issues and no design fault! Ha!!

They will never ever rat out a specific supplier (especially since this one isn't small). Let's say it was not a design issue but you believe what you want (well...the ups and downs of the internet ).

Think about this though: I told you a couple of days ago that they will swap engines and not repair them. So... 

So how long before new engines will be installed? I'm afraid this could take minimum 4 weeks from now on, up to 8 weeks are possible as far as I heard. Not good news but try to work out something with your Porsche dealer, Porsche will try everything possible to make current and future GT3 customers happy. I'm not kidding here.

It is a very unfortunate situation but I think a new engine is the best solution.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

 

They will never ever rat out a specific supplier (especially since this one isn't small). Let's say it was not a design issue but you believe what you want (well...the ups and downs of the internet ).

We will never know exactly whose "issue" this was, as I posted a while back I know that one of the few people who has held a 991 GT3 rod (pre fires) considered them not up to the job of 475PS and 9000rpm and that is just from observation and simple measurement, sounds like a design issue to me but we can all believe who we want

3.9  GT2 2011 make over

TB993tt:

RC:

 

They will never ever rat out a specific supplier (especially since this one isn't small). Let's say it was not a design issue but you believe what you want (well...the ups and downs of the internet ).

We will never know exactly whose "issue" this was, as I posted a while back I know that one of the few people who has held a 991 GT3 rod (pre fires) considered them not up to the job of 475PS and 9000rpm and that is just from observation and simple measurement, sounds like a design issue to me but we can all believe who we want

I give up.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

They found the perfect solution regarding the situation and some people aren't happy yet... Strange... 

People have lost confidence in the new GT engine, I believe.

Particularly, those whose cars have been delivered and subsequently been  taken away and of course the two unfortunate owners who were sitting in front of a furnace.

Customer confidence cannot be regained overnight. Porsche must work much harder.

Reading also about the woes with the 919, confirms to me that Porsche is not an engineering-led company anymore but one controlled by accountants and marketing people. W. Wiedeking's  unfortunate legacy carries on

"Form follows function"

Boyko23:

They found the perfect solution regarding the situation and some people aren't happy yet... Strange... 

The perfect solution would have been for their job to have been done right in the first instance to save customers this heartache and the damage to their reputation... I guess it would be better to say they have decided to give customers the best solution for the bad situation they created.... 

reginos:

People have lost confidence in the new GT engine, I believe.

Particularly, those whose cars have been delivered and subsequently been  taken away and of course the two unfortunate owners who were sitting in front of a furnace.

Customer confidence cannot be regained overnight. Porsche must work much harder.

Reading also about the woes with the 919, confirms to me that Porsche is not an engineering-led company anymore but one controlled by accountants and marketing people. W. Wiedeking's  unfortunate legacy carries on

 I mostly share your views..and I fully agree to what you write - except the last part with regard to the former CEO. On this one I strongly disagree - time will tell that he was Porsche best CEO ever. No, its clearly not WW mistake..WW made sure that Porsche was building under his leadership one the best cars ever, 996/997 GT3/GT2 etc, above all - the C-GT - which he largely influenced. He was also clearly dismissing the idea of the 918. If the financial crisis of 2008 happened only a few month later, his plan to take over VW would have worked - Porsche would have been in a totally different situation today !!. His plan unfortunately didnt work out..and now we are seeing the first puzzle pieces of this consequence ..

All this is my personal opinion, maybe Im naive, maybe Im too pessimistic whatever, but people who know me clearly judge me as a "realist" - the next years will show how the things will turn out.

I would be curious to see Christians opinion on the comparison of the former Porsche CEO - and the current - largely VW driven Management board. Porsche is not the same company anymore. Its whole processus have converged to VW ones - in many cases this might be a good thing (nothing against that)..but again - its not the same anymore - pre 2009 and after 2009..completely different..

reginos:

Reading also about the woes with the 919, confirms to me that Porsche is not an engineering-led company anymore but one controlled by accountants and marketing people. W. Wiedeking's  unfortunate legacy carries on

I think that is an exaggerated viewpoint.

An LMP1 project is a huge undertaking and drawing comparisons between the rumored LMP1 issues and the GT3 recall is not fair IMO.

Follow up...

Porsche found out what is the problem and solution is a very costly one for them-new engines. Yes, they learned their lesson the hard way. BUT, lesson is OVER. BTW, how many official engine problem cases? TWO, out of more then 700 GT3s produced... Yes, even I as very big Porsche fan was dissapointed with GT3 engine problem but... Some people simply created a histeria like situation. This thread become inflated with speculations, mostly by old GT3 owners and fans(heavy Mezgeroin addicts).

What is a old GT3 Mezger base 997 fan dream?

991 GT3 with:

-Manual gearbox

-NO PDK even as an option

-hydrualic servo steering if it must be(even better option NO servo steering at all)

-Mezger based engine extended to 4.0L(just, in its 4.0L latest version this engine is not a bulletproof any more. Do not belive in that? OK.)

Just... Mezger is an old design. It CAN NOT use any current production DCT(PDK) gearbox be it from Graziano(used by Mclaren, Audi/Lambo Huracan), Getrag(Ferreri, BMW M, Mercedes AMG) or ZF(Porsche PDK). Porsche tried to create a potential solution but, none of the DCT manufactures was able to design a DCT gearbox for Mezger. It is a fact. Why? Technical explanation is a very long one but, it has to do something with special real diffs and low specs electronic engine managment that Mezger is using(can not control all aspect of modern DCT properly). Remember when Christian wrote fee years ago about Network system in Porsche sportscars? In 991 Mezger simply do not fit from several technical point of view.

Further all competitors are using DCTs. Why would Porsche still use Mezger and manual? Becuase of respect for 997 GT3 costumers? Because of its(Mezger) racing heritage? Or because only Mezger and manual are manly enough for some people?

Hmm... Loudest members here are die hard Mezger fans. Well, I am sorry folks but, Mezger is dead.

Not happy about it? Well enjoy your 997 series GT3s and sing:"King is dead, long lived the king!" If you can not live with the fact that no more manual and Mezger in GT3 based 991 solution is simple-keep your old GT3 and admire it even more. That "feeling" that some of you claim is no longer present in 991 GT3 will keep you in deep love with your old 997 series GT3s. Regarding that "feel"... Did some of your actually drove new 991 GT3? If not do not write here about its lack of "feel" any more here on renteam, please,

IMHO 991 GT3 offers tons of "feel" and is one of the best sportscar currently on the market. Despite (sloved)engine problem.

I think you hit the nail on the Mezger head, so to speak!  There is a lot of emotional investment in the failure of the new engine and its implications for the future. We used to say in Virginia that it took 4 Virginians to change a light bulb, one to change the bulb and three to talk about how good the old bulb was.

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

DaveC:

I think you hit the nail on the Mezger head, so to speak!  There is a lot of emotional investment in the failure of the new engine and its implications for the future. We used to say in Virginia that it took 4 Virginians to change a light bulb, one to change the bulb and three to talk about how good the old bulb was.

Porsche 911 GT3 - Guards Red 997 MKII Clubsport

Mezger is far from dead, 4.5 litre GT3 Mezger is a reality and there are clever developments in the pipeline for sequentialesque gearboxes for street/trackday use, companies are investing in the "old" Mezger as they don't believe the new stuff will be viable for track enthusiasts long term.

Sure the manufacturers have had to go in this direction with Euro 6 and other regs but for some Porsche enthusiasts there are and will be  other directions which are more attractive. For Porsche Kool aid drinkers (and a different sort of driver) the latest stuff I have no doubt will satisfy.

Fact is this is an unprecedented situation in Porsche's history and some of us who have owned, followed and worshipped  the Porsche 911 longer than probably 80% of the people now working for Porsche it is probably a defining moment..

3.9  GT2 2011 make over

Very well written KresoF1. Best post in a long time here!  

Suzy

2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic
2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
 

DaveC:

I think you hit the nail on the Mezger head, so to speak!  There is a lot of emotional investment in the failure of the new engine and its implications for the future. We used to say in Virginia that it took 4 Virginians to change a light bulb, one to change the bulb and three to talk about how good the old bulb was.

Many "Mezger" fans here will be disappointed to hear that in Weissach, engineers are actually considering the Mezger engine something of the past, something outdated and something not really that great (anymore). When I asked an engineer about the "Mezger" usage in the upcoming GT3 RS, he looked at me and asked me: "Mezger engine? What do you mean?" Only then he realized what I have asked him because they are referring to the Mezger engine differently. Nobody makes so much fuss about the Mezger engine in Weissach...besides us customers.  This is not a story I made up, it is the truth. The Mezger engine had it's time, now there are other engines in play. Deal with it. Porsche needs to worry about emissions and other goals, at the same time, they need to push more and more power out of the engines. This isn't easy.

The GT3 issues didn't happen due to bad engineering, they happened because sh.t happens. I know that this isn't satisfying but this is how life works. Sometimes, things go well and sometimes, well...it happens. There was no engineering flaw involved and the engine is a very good engine. 
The new 991 GT3 had a lot of "enemies" and "skeptics" from the start because A. Porsche didn't offer a manual anymore (a sacrilege for them) and B. the engine wasn't race tested yet.

I get it...but now let's move on. 

@Kreso: Thank you so much, buddy. Great write-up. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

FlatSix911:

reginos:

Reading also about the woes with the 919, confirms to me that Porsche is not an engineering-led company anymore but one controlled by accountants and marketing people. W. Wiedeking's  unfortunate legacy carries on

I think that is an exaggerated viewpoint.

An LMP1 project is a huge undertaking and drawing comparisons between the rumored LMP1 issues and the GT3 recall is not fair IMO.

I'll be very glad to be proven wrong.

"Form follows function"

Mezger is dead yet the 9A1 based 991 GT3s are gathering dust in garages, dealerships and ports around the world... Ironic really... 

Do you really think it would be such a major feat to retrofit a more advanced control module onto a Mezger based car to facilitate control of a PDK transmission??? I highly doubt it but its always nicer to use excuses like this when wanting to move to a motor that costs $10-15k  less thus boosting your already healthy bottom line... ;)

We can live without the Mezger as long as it's replacement is worthy of use by race teams and is more reliable than it's predecessor... Both of which it is clearly not for the moment by Porsche's own admission through omission from it's racing program... 

Wonder what the secret ingredient is in the latest batch of Porsche kool-aid??? Hmmm....

911rox:

Mezger is dead yet the 9A1 based 991 GT3s are gathering dust in garages, dealerships and ports around the world... Ironic really... 

Do you really think it would be such a major feat to retrofit a more advanced control module onto a Mezger based car to facilitate control of a PDK transmission??? I highly doubt it but its always nicer to use excuses like this when wanting to move to a motor that costs $10-15k  less thus boosting your already healthy bottom line... ;)

We can live without the Mezger as long as it's replacement is worthy of use by race teams and is more reliable than it's predecessor... Both of which it is clearly not for the moment by Porsche's own admission through omission from it's racing program... 

Wonder what the secret ingredient is in the latest batch of Porsche kool-aid??? Hmmm....

Stupid question: Did you order a 991 GT3 or do you own one? If yes, I get that you're angry. If not...well...don't you have a cat to pet or a woman to take care of?!  Seriously...

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

 

Many "Mezger" fans here will be disappointed to hear that in Weissach, engineers are actually considering the Mezger engine something of the past, something outdated and something not really that great (anymore). When I asked an engineer about the "Mezger" usage in the upcoming GT3 RS, he looked at me and asked me: "Mezger engine? What do you mean?" Only then he realized what I have asked him because they are referring to the Mezger engine differently. Nobody makes so much fuss about the Mezger engine in Weissach...besides us customers.  This is not a story I made up, it is the truth. The Mezger engine had it's time, now there are other engines in play. Deal with it. Porsche needs to worry about emissions and other goals, at the same time, they need to push more and more power out of the engines. This isn't easy.

The GT3 issues didn't happen due to bad engineering, they happened because sh.t happens. I know that this isn't satisfying but this is how life works. Sometimes, things go well and sometimes, well...it happens. There was no engineering flaw involved and the engine is a very good engine. 
The new 991 GT3 had a lot of "enemies" and "skeptics" from the start because A. Porsche didn't offer a manual anymore (a sacrilege for them) and B. the engine wasn't race tested yet.

There is definitely a feeling of Schadenfreude among Mezger drivers, but IMO this is besides the point. The old vs new engine comparison is irrelevant as we are in a new age with DI, DCT etc.

The GT3 engine problem is a very big issue for a company like Porsche both from the engineering and the PR aspect. It has been already in the financial and mainstream media

The latest Porsche official letter is Pythian in its wording and doesn't clear things up.

"a loosened piston rod screw connection which damaged the crankcase."  Porsche should come to the open and explain what this means. A design fault or a random component failure. IMO Porsche sportscar buyers, even though a minority these days, will appreciate an honest and clear answer rather than a statement coming from an oracle.

--

"Form follows function"

RC, thanks for your insights on this. The only point worth emphasising is the one you mention: if Porsche had elected to to develop the new race engine first, then race tested it and only subsequently derived an engine for the GT road cars from it, this PR desaster could have been avoided. 

Any potential issues, engineering or supplier related, would have come to light much sooner in the process and would have been visible to a much smaller audience.

Add to that the fact that all GT race cars, including the GT3 cup and the 911 RSR, continue to run the the Mezger engine...it is therefore hard to believe that the folks in Weissach seem to have forgotten it still exists. 

RC:

911rox:

Mezger is dead yet the 9A1 based 991 GT3s are gathering dust in garages, dealerships and ports around the world... Ironic really... 

Do you really think it would be such a major feat to retrofit a more advanced control module onto a Mezger based car to facilitate control of a PDK transmission??? I highly doubt it but its always nicer to use excuses like this when wanting to move to a motor that costs $10-15k  less thus boosting your already healthy bottom line... ;)

We can live without the Mezger as long as it's replacement is worthy of use by race teams and is more reliable than it's predecessor... Both of which it is clearly not for the moment by Porsche's own admission through omission from it's racing program... 

Wonder what the secret ingredient is in the latest batch of Porsche kool-aid??? Hmmm....

Stupid question: Did you order a 991 GT3 or do you own one? If yes, I get that you're angry. If not...well...don't you have a cat to pet or a woman to take care of?!  Seriously...

Why do you ask? Having trouble handling the truth???? 

I was hoping to give another GT3 a home but given I use my GT3s as intended, for track duty, clearly my number one requirement- reliability is no longer a priority for Porsche and thus their now imitation track cars are no longer a priority for me until they prove themselves again 

911rox:

 

Do you really think it would be such a major feat to retrofit a more advanced control module onto a Mezger based car to facilitate control of a PDK transmission???

Mezger CAN NOT use ANY of current(or forthcoming) DCT from Graziano, Getrag or ZF. It is designed that way originally that gearbox must be manual only(or Mercedes based onl5 speed TIP. BTW, do you know how much pain created the fact that none other automatic at that time, even more advanced Mercedes units fit Mezger for usage in 997.1 Turbo?): Mezger is big in size and can not fit bigger sizes of current DCT that incorporates electronically controlled LSDs. From sheer technical size and layout of Mezger modern DCTs do not fit. I spoke directly with someone from Werk 1(he told me info that I wrote above about Mezger vs DCTs) and he still admires Mezger(and yes, they internally do not call it Mezger-term created by UK based press) engine but, he knows a thing or two more then you and me about engines and in his opinion Mezger is dead from technical evolution point of view.

Also, Mezger can not use DFI or combined DFI/FI systems us used in Huracan for example. Again, from technical point of view. And can NOT be redesigned to use them-

Kreso, your earlier post made reference to electronic management limitations, not physical size... thus my response.

olli:

RC, thanks for your insights on this. The only point worth emphasising is the one you mention: if Porsche had elected to to develop the new race engine first, then race tested it and only subsequently derived an engine for the GT road cars from it, this PR desaster could have been avoided. 

Any potential issues, engineering or supplier related, would have come to light much sooner in the process and would have been visible to a much smaller audience.

Add to that the fact that all GT race cars, including the GT3 cup and the 911 RSR, continue to run the the Mezger engine...it is therefore hard to believe that the folks in Weissach seem to have forgotten it still exists. 

 

 

 Thats exactly the point - it has nothing to do with "Mezger Nostalgie". As pointed out before, the engine´s name "Mezger" in fact is wrong, he went into retirement before the first 996 GT3 came out.

Still. its all Porsche´s mistake, if the new GT3 engíne was already in the 2013 CUP..all this would have been avoided. You might have seen a few race cars getting stranded besides the track..but so what? no big deal, final customers would have never noticed it...but like this. As Kreso said, they will learn it the hard way..lets take one positive element from this: with this issue here it becomes very unlikley that something similar will happen again soon..any future 991 Gt3 engine problem will be "eaten by the press", they really got to make sure this thing works. I keep however repeating what I said before - personal consequences need to be taken - I´m sure there were enough smart Porsche employees who sensed the disaster coming up but they "were told to shut up". I hope the Management learns from this mistake.

olli:

RC, thanks for your insights on this. The only point worth emphasising is the one you mention: if Porsche had elected to to develop the new race engine first, then race tested it and only subsequently derived an engine for the GT road cars from it, this PR desaster could have been avoided. 

Any potential issues, engineering or supplier related, would have come to light much sooner in the process and would have been visible to a much smaller audience.

Add to that the fact that all GT race cars, including the GT3 cup and the 911 RSR, continue to run the the Mezger engine...it is therefore hard to believe that the folks in Weissach seem to have forgotten it still exists. 

They haven't forgotten but Porsche Motorsport is a little bit of a different company than Weissach development...a little bit. 

As to the "Mezger" engine and it still being used on race cars:

1. Have you forgotten how old this engine is and that initial 911 models had issues too?

2. Have you forgotten that racing regulations and real life driving/emissions requirements are often quite different?

3. Have you forgotten that regulation changes are quite common nowadays and it would be a financial disaster to develop an engine and then not use it?

Yes, Porsche could have developed a new race engine first and then, after a year or so, they could have used it in the GT3. The problem here is: Regulation changes, time and the need for a new (street) engine. They couldn't wait. Look at the body they used for homologation, it wasn't even the new GT3 body but the C4 body, simply because the GT3 wasn't ready yet (yes, basically the same but homologation is a different story).

For us customers, there is only black and white, things are simple and we couldn't care less. For Porsche and Porsche Motorsport, these are serious issues...money...regulations...changes...emissions...budget...and so on.

I do not try to defend Porsche, if I would own a GT3 or if I ordered one, I would be very p.ss.d, no doubt about it but what is going on now for weeks is some sort of vicious bashing which is not only unjustified but also very very annoying. I get the anger from owners and those who ordered a GT3 but everyone else should chill and stop trolling around. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)