Crown

DJC:

The turbo S sells for $182,000 the cheapest  I was offered a F12 for was $395,000

quite a spread!

The Ferraris feel great if driven slowly and not so good if driven fast = expensive in the US.

The Porsches feel great if driven fast = cheap in the US.

The US cannot use the potential of Porsche cars. That's why they sell them so cheap in the US. My theory of the relative pricing 

DJC:

The turbo S sells for $182,000 the cheapest  I was offered a F12 for was $395,000

quite a spread!

Porsches are extremely cheap in the US compared to Europe, Ferrari's prices aren't as it seems. Here in Switzerland the baseprice of a TTS is CHF 270k ($300k), the F12 is CHF 325k ($360k)

Suzy

2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic
2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
 

I think we may have stumbled onto something here. All these other forums waste time having different threads for different topics. Clearly better just to discuss any damned thing on one thread.

2011 987S, 1964 Type 1

PCNA sent a communication to all US dealerships stating a substantive update to GT3 customers will be sent out Monday. I find the term "update" telling in that it implies they will not discuss the solution or the timing of one.

This may drag on for quite awhile.

MKSGR:

The US cannot use the potential of Porsche cars. That's why they sell them so cheap in the US. My theory of the relative pricing 

The opportunities to exercise a Porsche are quite plentiful in the western part of the country (and there are quite a few tracks as well).

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

SuzyF:

DJC:

The turbo S sells for $182,000 the cheapest  I was offered a F12 for was $395,000

quite a spread!

Porsches are extremely cheap in the US compared to Europe, Ferrari's prices aren't as it seems. Here in Switzerland the baseprice of a TTS is CHF 270k ($300k), the F12 is CHF 325k ($360k)

Are you sure? In the UK the Turbo S starts from £140.000 and the F12 from £240.000 and no F12 ends up being sold below £300.000 given the variety of paint options, leathers, carbons etc. Huge difference.

"Form follows function"

Well, the huge difference is what you feel behind the steering wheel of a Turbo S and a F12!

Not really the same kind of car. Not really for the same use. 

And yes, I drove both. :)

reginos:

SuzyF:

DJC:

The turbo S sells for $182,000 the cheapest  I was offered a F12 for was $395,000

quite a spread!

Porsches are extremely cheap in the US compared to Europe, Ferrari's prices aren't as it seems. Here in Switzerland the baseprice of a TTS is CHF 270k ($300k), the F12 is CHF 325k ($360k)

Are you sure? In the UK the Turbo S starts from £140.000 and the F12 from £240.000 and no F12 ends up being sold below £300.000 given the variety of paint options, leathers, carbons etc. Huge difference.

I don't know about the UK but the price difference between the 991 Turbo S and the F12 is pretty high in the US, not so much in Germany. Actually, there is only a difference of 71k EUR in base price and F12.

Also, there are a couple of used F12 available from official dealers with low mileage, price tag is always around 235k EUR. This is actually a huge problem for used 991 Turbo S, since potential customers could argue that the F12 isn't much more expensive. Not that many 991 Turbo S customers would choose a F12 instead, Germany is a different market. Also interesting: A used FF with low mileage isn't much cheaper than a F12. Weird.

Back to the GT3 discussion: Monday seems to be the date of an announcement, so let's see what is going on.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

reginos:

SuzyF:

DJC:

The turbo S sells for $182,000 the cheapest  I was offered a F12 for was $395,000

quite a spread!

Porsches are extremely cheap in the US compared to Europe, Ferrari's prices aren't as it seems. Here in Switzerland the baseprice of a TTS is CHF 270k ($300k), the F12 is CHF 325k ($360k)

Are you sure? In the UK the Turbo S starts from £140.000 and the F12 from £240.000 and no F12 ends up being sold below £300.000 given the variety of paint options, leathers, carbons etc. Huge difference.

I don't know about the UK but the price difference between the 991 Turbo S and the F12 is pretty high in the US, not so much in Germany. Actually, there is only a difference of 71k EUR in base price and F12.

Also, there are a couple of used F12 available from official dealers with low mileage, price tag is always around 235k EUR. This is actually a huge problem for used 991 Turbo S, since potential customers could argue that the F12 isn't much more expensive. Not that many 991 Turbo S customers would choose a F12 instead, Germany is a different market. Also interesting: A used FF with low mileage isn't much cheaper than a F12. Weird.

Back to the GT3 discussion: Monday seems to be the date of an announcement, so let's see what is going on.

One last point on Turbo prices.

The Turbo S in the UK is £140.000 which comes to EUR 30.000 lower than the basic price in Germany!

IMO Porsche GB are selling this model low to be near the competition from British luxury brands like Bentley and Aston Martin which have a wide acceptance in the local market.

"Form follows function"

MKSGR:

DJC:

The turbo S sells for $182,000 the cheapest  I was offered a F12 for was $395,000

quite a spread!

The Ferraris feel great if driven slowly and not so good if driven fast = expensive in the US.

The Porsches feel great if driven fast = cheap in the US.

The US cannot use the potential of Porsche cars. That's why they sell them so cheap in the US. My theory of the relative pricing 

The last freedoms left in usa are cheap cars: my e63 s wagon 2014 was $112k, my 991 s cab was 127 usd, a low mile scud is 180, hgte's 240 etc.; and running fast.

those in the know can run very very fast in usa for long distances.  Sun tends to do this in porsches, as one is a long way from the dealer, and even though Fs are more reliable than in past. Even in Ca you can run low triple digit. You can definitely use the potential of a porsche.

IN WA State USA, the county mounties/State Police are experts w/instant on radar. It doesn't matter what defenses you may have on board, if they see you & you are speeding, it's burnt toast time...... revenue thing - that's their game.

During my drive to  Atlanta and back last weekend I certainly used the Turbo power and then some.  Love the Smokey mountains!  It was my usual - worked until 5PM, left town at 7PM CST and arrived in Atlanta 7AM EST the next morning.  Traffic flowed, even at night, at 80mph+..  Running at 90 with my Passport was totally safe even with Instant on.  That was the case in all States MO, KY, TN and GA.  Illinois NEVER!  IL sucks, never go more than 5 over. 

While running at 90mph full power (Sport button + rapid throttle to activate) is frequently used to manage traffic better and keep up with the never ending racers who want a piece of the Turbo but who end up being my un-witting 'speed bitch'.  It certainly is not the case that the Turbo power in not used in the US to the fullest!  I want more power, always.  The good part is that on long hauls average speeds in the 85 range over 12 hours yield respectable mileage numbers.  I got 24 mpg all weekend including 7 hours of wet roller coaster Missouri Ozark roads on the way by the lake house when returning to KC.

If you consider my perfectly fit 977 Turbo cost me $65K and I have covered almost 18K miles in less than 10 months, including harsh winter miles on summer tires (lol - love 4-wheel drive - snow tires are for sissies) and my insurance is now down to $900 per year my cost of ownership is riddiculous.  RC pays more for his car in a month than I do for a year - not counting a huge downpayment on the lease.  My fun is about the same (of course I would not want a PDK car so for me mine is far more fun) and there is NO place in the world where I could have this much car fun for this price!  Oh - and my car is still worth the $65K I paid - Mezger manual Turbo will always be a good bet.  I should thank Porsche for building NO MORE mezger engines and GT3 or Turbo with manuals. 

This GT3 engine problem is just the begining of the issues this new generation of engines will face.  It reminds me of NEW Coke except I doubt Porsche will switch back.

DaveGordon:

I think we may have stumbled onto something here. All these other forums waste time having different threads for different topics. Clearly better just to discuss any damned thing on one thread.

Did you decide which fish to get for your aquarium?

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

DaveGordon:

I think we may have stumbled onto something here. All these other forums waste time having different threads for different topics. Clearly better just to discuss any damned thing on one thread.

Unfortunately, true.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

frayed:

DaveGordon:

I think we may have stumbled onto something here. All these other forums waste time having different threads for different topics. Clearly better just to discuss any damned thing on one thread.

Unfortunately, true.

The problem is that we don't have anything to discuss right now...at least regarding the GT3. Simply because there is nothing new. Of course we could do what other forums do, post dozens of different rumors and nice sounding stories and keep people entertained (and annoyed) but I thought we are different (and we are).

So unless today is the day, I'm afraid we are going to deviate from time to time from the typical GT3 discussion, simply because there is nothing else to talk about. Would you want this thread to go dead instead? I don't know. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Leawood911:

 

While running at 90mph full power (Sport button + rapid throttle to activate) is frequently used to manage traffic better and keep up with the never ending racers who want a piece of the Turbo but who end up being my un-witting 'speed bitch'.  It certainly is not the case that the Turbo power in not used in the US to the fullest!  I want more power, always.  The good part is that on long hauls average speeds in the 85 range over 12 hours yield respectable mileage numbers.  I got 24 mpg all weekend including 7 hours of wet roller coaster Missouri Ozark roads on the way by the lake house when returning to KC.

 

 

In speed limited countries  you are really only experiencing a small bit of what a Porsche 911 turbo can do. Running up through the revs in 4th 5th and 6th gears is the 911 turbo's forte. Porsche have always been exceptional in making turbo engines which hold their power to maximum speed, the Autobahn is the playground for the 911 turbo, The power play really only starts above 250kph and this is where a Porsche turbo will  outshine most of its rivals and it will do it again and again and again without problems.

3.9  GT2 2011 make over

Leawood911:

During my drive to  Atlanta .....

...  I should thank Porsche for building NO MORE mezger engines and GT3 or Turbo with manuals. 

This GT3 engine problem is just the begining of the issues this new generation of engines will face.  It reminds me of NEW Coke except I doubt Porsche will switch back.

 

 Im fully with you ! For all 997 GT owners - nothing better could have happened. In the year 2009/2010/2011 I always wanted to write a letter to Porche CEO, AP and his team to thank so much that they have build still such simple and raw cars. Now, 4 years later where are we with the 991 GT3? In the land of nowhere I would say, plus a huge communication desaster. I can hardly think of any case (company) where such a joy, happinness, proud feeling etc have changed so quickly into anger, frustration, disappointment..

This will take time to "heal"..even if in 3 months from now all 991 GT3s will be running fllawless for years on the track (which I would doubt)..the internet keeps these negative memories alive (this being a major difference to the old 911 days where internet didnt exist and "global frustration couldnt be shared")..

KresoF1:

Hmm... I do not agree with you. ...

Also, I have a feeling that "Mikly, milky" market strategy is wrong. Mercedes is doing differenty-new AMG GT will be little bit smaller then SLS AMG, faster on both tracka nd straight line, "greener", more practical(normal door and hatchback) and way cheaper then SLS AMG. This is the case when company listens their potential costumers...

Even in 997 generation Porsche was the best sportscar be it in Carrera S, Turbo or GT3 version. Is it the same in 991 range? I do not think so despite the fact that 991 is a brilliant sportcar. I have a feeling that problem is not something with a easy fix. Other manufactures are simple better then ever and Porsche is no loger the sole "Sports car desert Island".

 Yes Kreso - fully agree on this one - period

I wasnt aware of the example from Mercedes - but its an example to learn from. For me the next 911 must be simpler, smaller (less weight anyway)..but I think Porche´s problem is that they are offering cars wich are too close together. Soon they will be selling 200,000 - OK - fine for me if it has to be that way. But why not really differentiate:

- 80% of cars sold will be Macan, panamera, cayenne - OK - these will be mainstream

- make the remainder 20% really "different", and if its too extreme, OK, then some people will jump off but the business case is stil working as Porsche will have its backbone from the other 80%..which is a stable market anyway. The Macan itself is a good idea - SUV - but more environmentally friendly, cheaper, smaller etc..

But Porsche should leave the 911 for what it is - a stand alone product - that has its "character". Today the 991 doesnt have much character, the loss of character starts already with the fact that the 991 gets the same intererior as a panamera..wtf were they thinking??.."come on Mr 911 Project leader (Mr Achl.), youre really not going to think  that we will design a special interior for the 911 - those old and retarded buyers..no no - we´ll give you a panamera intererior design and thats it - take it or leave it".

I would like to say  that I really like reannteams idea, Porsche Motorsport should take care of the 991 GT3, 991 series etc - and the rest will do the "boring" cars. The funny thing is that Porshce will see now no reason to change anything - why? They are having sales records after sales records..but for me its only a question of time when the pendulum will turn in the other direction..

The 991 has a lot of character but it lacks emotions from a visual point of view in the interior. Porsche is aware of that and it will be changed but I hope they will have a difference between a 911 Carrera and a 911 Turbo interior. They both look the same (with minor differences) and this is not OK.

I think I mentioned the fact that there was some sort of VW Group upper management event with the 991 Turbo S, the Lamborghini Huracan, the next gen Audi R8 and so on last year around late spring and everybody loved how the Turbo S handled and the performance and all but they didn't like the interior (not luxurious/special enough).

So the interior will be improved, I just hope that Porsche knows that customers are expecting a difference between the Carrera, the GT models and the Turbo models. If they put the same interior into all three categories, this will create, again, a problem.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

The 991 has a lot of character but it lacks emotions from a visual point of view in the interior.

Arguing over whether the 991 has character is pointless because we all have different perceptions. There is no right or wrong on such a subjective subject.  For the record, I think the 991 lacks character and I would go as far to say I found the Carrera models downright boring to drive.  Regarding the interior, I like a sports car to be simple and functional so the 991 does not appeal to me - the Panamera style interior and seats that are too wide to hold me in place just reinforce the grand tourer feel. 

Gen II Cayman S

GR:

RC:

The 991 has a lot of character but it lacks emotions from a visual point of view in the interior.

Arguing over whether the 991 has character is pointless because we all have different perceptions. There is no right or wrong on such a subjective subject.  For the record, I think the 991 lacks character and I would go as far to say I found the Carrera models downright boring to drive.  Regarding the interior, I like a sports car to be simple and functional so the 991 does not appeal to me - the Panamera style interior and seats that are too wide to hold me in place just reinforce the grand tourer feel. 

 

Well...I could say the same about the Cayman or most 996 and older 911 (with a few exceptions) but...  

What you are looking for is not a sports car but an old Caterham.  Real "fun" to drive. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

I'm okay with all the 911s having shared interior etc.  - No need to single out the GT and Turbo models.  That said, the 911 interiors need to be special and way more expensive looking (AND SPORTY AND FUNCTIONAL) than the 200,000 OTHER cars they build.  Most frustrating is that the new designs appear first on the 4-door and the SUV and THEN the 911.  How backwards is that?

Make the 911 lead with fancy and expensive options and parts and allow some of it to trickle down in a lesser way to the mass produced cars - so that when I am in a Porsche SUV I see a few 911 similarities but a down-graded version of what can be had in a 911.  This way all the 911s feel like they warrant the price, the difference being only basic configuration like engine and 2WD vs. 4WD.

I agree that this thread wanders but like RC said we are left with nothing else to discuss and why not keep this thread busy.  One could start hundreds of threads out of this one if you wanted to be picky - but we would end up with 2-3 post for each of these threads and it would not be as easy to follow.

Cheers RC and thanks to you and all the others that make this forum fun to watch, even in times of crappy news.

Now where the heck is the 777?  It was not transporting a burning GT3 was it?  (there, I kept it on thread)

RC:

GR:. 

Well...I could say the same about the Cayman or most 996 and older 911 (with a few exceptions) but...  

What you are looking for is not a sports car but an old Caterham.  Real "fun" to drive. 

Are you saying Caterham isn't a sports car?   I once heard someone describe them as a biscuit tin on wheels   Mind you the same chap said my air cooled 911 sounded like a mating hippo.

The 986/996 provided a great compromise for me, the 987/997 veered slightly away from what like but overall, I'm pretty happy with my Cayman.  Funnily enough I'm not keen on the Caterhams and I suspect its because they are front engined.  I love the Elise (and Exige) but I couldn't run one as a daily driver as I once did. 

Gen II Cayman S

RC:

frayed:

DaveGordon:

I think we may have stumbled onto something here. All these other forums waste time having different threads for different topics. Clearly better just to discuss any damned thing on one thread.

Unfortunately, true.

The problem is that we don't have anything to discuss right now...at least regarding the GT3. Simply because there is nothing new. Of course we could do what other forums do, post dozens of different rumors and nice sounding stories and keep people entertained (and annoyed) but I thought we are different (and we are).

So unless today is the day, I'm afraid we are going to deviate from time to time from the typical GT3 discussion, simply because there is nothing else to talk about. Would you want this thread to go dead instead? I don't know. 

I was just a bit annoyed when the 2 topics of current interest to me (GT3 & Boxster GTS) both had a fair bit of new activity and not a single post had the slightest thing to do with either of the topics.

It strikes me as a shame that the majority of posting on this board takes place within a handful of threads - which meander across many subjects, often simultaneously.  I think the effects of this are a) there are discussions going on which could interest people, but they don't see them or take part as they take place under threads with a title which does not interest them, and b) that interesting, on-topic discussion is lost amongst the pages of noise.

True, there is no official information about the GT3 engine issue yet, so discussion on that topic might rightly go quiet for a few days.  It doesn't mean people wouldn't continue to discuss "GT3 vs Turbo S", "UK vs US pricing", "Copyright infringement" or any of the other themes recently covered in this thread if they were within their own threads.  

As an aside, i'm unsure of the purpose of a perpetual "OFFICIAL: xyz model" thread to contain any and all discussion about the model - I see it serves a useful purpose around the time of introduction, but after that?  You just end up with a massive long thread with no discernable topic.  Also makes search less efficient.

There are many smart and interesting people on this board, and I bet we'd all like to see more (quality) activity - another example - maybe the interesting discussion about the Ukraine situation contained in the "Driving in Russia" thread would have been more widely taken up if not hidden under the guise of a bad-driving YouTube video.

I just wonder if a little constructive moderation might help people realise they can and should start new threads on different topics...

[BTW, the irony of posting this in the GT3 thread is not lost on me ]

2011 987S, 1964 Type 1

[BTW, the irony of posting this in the GT3 thread is not lost on me ]

As long as you mention GT3 in some manner it is legal while there is no extra news to report.

Letter reportedly sent to 991 GT3 customers from PCNA on Monday 17 March 2014...

Dear Mr

 

As advised previously, engineers at Porsche AG have been conducting technical analysis of the Porsche 911 GT3 engine in order to find a solution to the problem which led us to recommend you stop driving your car.

 

This analysis is now completed, and we would like to inform you about the cause of the problem and the planned remedial actions.

 

As already communicated, two vehicles in Europe suffered engine damage, causing the vehicles to catch fire.

 

Analysis has revealed that in both cases the engine damage was caused by a loosened piston rod screw connection which damaged the crankcase. In order to avoid this in the future, an optimized screw connection is currently being tested. For the final validation of this solution, Porsche AG is currently carrying out extensive tests.

 

At Porsche we are rigorous when implementing an engineering solution, therefore, after the successful testing and validation we will be installing new engines with optimized piston rod screw connections in all 2014 Porsche 911 GT3 vehicles.

 

Due to the complexity of the necessary arrangement, we are currently unable to provide you with a specific workshop date for your Porsche 911 GT3. We will be arranging an appointment with you individually, as soon as the logistics planning is finalized. We will be providing you with additional information within the next three weeks.

 

We continue to remain committed to supporting your individual needs during this time.

 

Your personal contact person will make contact with you within the next days to discuss individual solutions to bridge the gap until you are reunited with your Porsche 911 GT3.

 

Thank you very much for your patience and your loyalty to the Porsche brand.

 

Kind regards,

 

Porsche Cars North America, Inc.
 

Porsche 991 GT3 at the Nurburgring: "A Ride in Paradise..."

Porsche 991 GT3 at the Nurburgring: A Ride in Paradise -- Video Link

Boxster Coupe GTS:

Letter reportedly sent to 991 GT3 customers from PCNA on Monday 17 March 2014...

Dear Mr

 

As advised previously, engineers at Porsche AG have been conducting technical analysis of the Porsche 911 GT3 engine in order to find a solution to the problem which led us to recommend you stop driving your car.

 

This analysis is now completed, and we would like to inform you about the cause of the problem and the planned remedial actions.

 

As already communicated, two vehicles in Europe suffered engine damage, causing the vehicles to catch fire.

 

Analysis has revealed that in both cases the engine damage was caused by a loosened piston rod screw connection which damaged the crankcase. In order to avoid this in the future, an optimized screw connection is currently being tested. For the final validation of this solution, Porsche AG is currently carrying out extensive tests.

 

At Porsche we are rigorous when implementing an engineering solution, therefore, after the successful testing and validation we will be installing new engines with optimized piston rod screw connections in all 2014 Porsche 911 GT3 vehicles.

 

Due to the complexity of the necessary arrangement, we are currently unable to provide you with a specific workshop date for your Porsche 911 GT3. We will be arranging an appointment with you individually, as soon as the logistics planning is finalized. We will be providing you with additional information within the next three weeks.

 

We continue to remain committed to supporting your individual needs during this time.

 

Your personal contact person will make contact with you within the next days to discuss individual solutions to bridge the gap until you are reunited with your Porsche 911 GT3.

 

Thank you very much for your patience and your loyalty to the Porsche brand.

 

Kind regards,

 

Porsche Cars North America, Inc.
 

Solved!  Read this here too in case people think the communication above is fake.

www.ausmotive.com