Crown

KresoF1:

Hmm... I do not agree with you. There are cars that are as capable on the track as Carrera S and faster on the autobahn for less money(Jaguar F-Type R Coupe as example).

 

Kreso, did you see the Carrera S vs Jaguar test in one of the current German car magazines? The Jaguar seems to be quite an underperformer on the track (it weights 300kg more than the 991s). While I have not driven the Jaguar I can also recall that RC did not like the car at all after test driving it 

I drove the F-Type V8S roadster, not the coupe and yes, not really a track car (very close to the C63 AMG Coupe I owned, a real UK muscle car). GT AMG? No thanks. Mercedes kind of sucks lately, the only interesting car being the SLS Roadster (from a fun factor point of view, not performance) and the G63/G65 AMG.

If I want a sports car, I look at Porsche, Ferrari or Lamborghini in Europe. Maybe McLaren too. Thats it. In the US, maybe the Corvette and the upcoming Chrysler Hellcat engine equipped SRT models (however, judging by the current Viper, I doubt they will make a serious impact on the sports car market).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

MKSGR:

FlatSix911:

MKSGR:
Not more emotions maybe - but different emotions 

I completely agree.

I think that cars like the F12 and the Huracan have an obvious appeal. However, I think one's perspective changes after having driven such cars for a few ten of thousands of KM. Things that made these cars appealing BEFORE owning them, start to wear off.

 

It is funny - whenever I read your posts I feel like I could have written them myself 

I think that having been two of the few to have put some serious KM on a 599 (I tried to use it the same way I used my old 911s) gives us some common perspective.

I think that Porsche 911s and Ferraris and complementing products (I'm thinking very seriously about a 599 GTO as an occasional weekend toy). However, having to chose between a 911 and any Ferrari based on past experience, I would pick the 911 every time.

Someone above noted that the Turbo S is too expensive. Maybe. However, I would point out the following:

1) Some of us like having the top of the line everyday 911.

2) A 911 Turbo fully configured to my tastes came out to 210K Euros. An F12, 320K . A 458 240K. Carbon fiber and other options on Ferraris are VERY expensive and inflate the price in no time.

Moreover, you cannot compare new/custom ordered to used (even if 0km). IMO, the Turbo is still the best value proposition in its class (even if less obviously than before).

Markus,

My point is little bit different then yours. F-Type R with Ceramic brakes is 125K € in Germany. It is a better buy IMHO then any 991 Carrera S Coupe.

Did you drove 991 Carrera S? Did extreme lack of low end and mid end torque bothered you? Even PDK in excellent Sport mode(not Sport +) can not hide apparent lack of torque. Only if you push the revs all the time 991 Carrera S feel fast and special. If you do not open the throttle fully all the time... You can see the rear end of something like Audi TT RS on the autobahn. Not a very nice feeling IMHO. Few days ago I witnessed in person what latest M6 can do on the autobahn to 991 Carrera S in speed range 140km/h to 240km/h... So, to be faster on the autobahn against 125K € BMW M6 I need to buy 200K € 991 Turbo S... That is the fact unfortunately.

Oh, how about the fact that my poor Audi A6 3.0TBI(313ps) is having no problem to stick with 981 Cayman S till 250km/h?

My point is the Porsche 911(991) is stil an excellent sportscar. But, by far the best car in its class? No.

reginos:

Get a Carrera S RWD Coupe, specify it reasonably,keep it to a max of €130-140.000 and you could not have any regrets. The performance will be all there in all practical terms and your outlay will not be hugely above the mainstream performance models and also much below exotics and special cars. 

And you will get a car you could easily keep for another 8-10 years.

This model is the sweet spot of the whole Porsche sports car range.

A RWD CarreraS Coupe configured the way I would order it does not go a penny bellow 145,000€ (and no X50, no PCCB, no PDDC, etc) , that is insane for a Carrera, and offering the worst value for money of the whole 911 line up to throw salt on top of the wound.

Then after I would have picked it up and drove it off the lot, 12 months later Porsche would be introducing a facelift with added superficial external aesthetic changes so as to make the pre-facelift look already outdated.

I'm having difficulty swallowing this, with the word "sucker" ringing in my head...

--

Have the day off and just got back from a drive in the C4S.  Sure feels special to me.  Despite all the very valid criticisms offered, Porsche still makes a sports car that does so many things so well.  

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

KresoF1:

Markus,

My point is little bit different then yours. F-Type R with Ceramic brakes is 125K € in Germany. It is a better buy IMHO then any 991 Carrera S Coupe.

Did you drove 991 Carrera S? Did extreme lack of low end and mid end torque bothered you? Even PDK in excellent Sport mode(not Sport +) can not hide apparent lack of torque. Only if you push the revs all the time 991 Carrera S feel fast and special. If you do not open the throttle fully all the time... You can see the rear end of something like Audi TT RS on the autobahn. Not a very nice feeling IMHO. Few days ago I witnessed in person what latest M6 can do on the autobahn to 991 Carrera S in speed range 140km/h to 240km/h... So, to be faster on the autobahn against 125K € BMW M6 I need to buy 200K € 991 Turbo S... That is the fact unfortunately.

Oh, how about the fact that my poor Audi A6 3.0TBI(313ps) is having no problem to stick with 981 Cayman S till 250km/h?

My point is the Porsche 911(991) is stil an excellent sportscar. But, by far the best car in its class? No.

i love the 991 Carrera S and never really had the feeling that it lacks something. I am however addicted to power, so I chose the 991 Turbo S. The new 991 Carrera S is an amazing car. Not sure what happened to the car you drove but something clearly wasn't right. Low- and mid end torque? I kind of have a feeling that you exited a turbo engined car and jumped right into the Carrera S. What about the GT3 then? No low- and mid end torque issues? 

I am sorry but I really think the 991 Carrera S is an amazing sports car but the only thing I actually complaint about is the...price tag. It got way too expensive. 130-150k EUR for a Carrera S? Are they nuts?!

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Yes, you are right since after I did extensive 991 Turbo S test drive I tried 991 Carrera S just to see how big is the real difference. It is big(and you know it).

Honestly, I will most probably order 991 Turbo S after all next week. I like it so much and can not help myself.

Now, Carrera White Metallic with Black interior and Sport Classic wheels in Black or Agate Grey Metallic with Black interior and Sport Classic wheels in GT Silver Need to figure it out during the weekend...

BTW, check out normal 991 Turbo numbers in todays Sport Auto.

Porsche made over 3B dollars last year. It reported 173% surge in operating profit compared to the VW brand which had a 21% decline.

Porsche could care less as to what we think. They have expanded their customer base and sport car enthusiast like ourselves have been marginalized. No need to listen to us.

GR:

reginos:

GR:

My situation is subtly different but the outcome is the same.  After years of Porsche being my default sports car choice I do not want the 981/991.  But this is mainly beacuse I feel Porsche have gone too far in diluting the driving experience to broaden the market appeal.  That the exclusivity is also being diluted and prices are high just makes matters worse.

What you are saying reflects the way many (including myself) question the Porsche evolution.

What alternatives are you considering?

To achieve the broad range of capability that my 987 provides, I am going to have to get 2 cars but that does allow each to be better in their focussed role.  The pure sports car will likely be a supercharged Lotus Elise (swift, agile, huge fun and cheap to track) but I am also considering the V6 Exige and I am keen to try the Zenos E10 when it is launched.  A daily driver is much harder to pin down but I am thinking along the lines of:  top end BMW 3 series/M3/Alpina, Macan (oh the irony) or Golf R.  I want something realtively fast, fun to drive, luxurious (ambience not toys) and practical on the commute.

The M3 is currently my favourite because I think it will be the best at driving a long distance but still being really rewarding on the challenging roads or even track at the end of that journey.  However, I seem to change my mind every week! 

With this remit I would go for the Golf R and the Alfa 4C provided that the latter is as good to drive as it looks.

But I suppose you would want manual transmission on your sports car.

"Form follows function"

KresoF1:

BTW, check out normal 991 Turbo numbers in todays Sport Auto.

What are they?

http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/porsche-911-gt3-die-ursache-fuer-zwei-braende-ist-gefunden-a-958646.html

porsche statement still disappointing. 

Porsche 911 GT3 - Guards Red 997 MKII Clubsport

Carlos from Spain:

I have been going through the same thing lately in the last year and I though it was just me, and having been a die hard fan of Porsche now I see that other big fans are thinking going through the same thing.

In the past generations of 911 I didn't even bother looking at any other sportscar, the choice was easy. But more and more I'm having difficulty fitting in the business philosophy of Porsche and desitions they are making. Seems like they are milking the cow, they offer less for more in a time were the market is doing the opposite, questionable reliability issues, forced turn-over facelift strategies, questionable newer model versions with cheap diesels, etc....

I keep delaying getting a new one because I really don't know what to do...

Porsche needs to separate the sports car from the SUV and sedan .

They also need to stop wanting to make volume with the 911 . The number of different models, face-lifts starting nearly before the whole range is out  is just insane and dilutes the car .  They should use the Cayenne, Macam and Panamera to make volume and most profit .

On the other side have the sports car, ( 911  etc.. ) and keep them exclusive by only having a few different models, lower numbers and keep it  '' authentic ''  ( price, performance, sportiness ) .  It will keep the image of Porsche high up , satisfy the core customers, keep the dream going for the future generation and then on the other side they can bank on the image by doing the mass products like Macan , Cayenne .

M4, F-Type are becoming alternatives ......

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Gauss:

http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/porsche-911-gt3-die-ursache-fuer-zwei-braende-ist-gefunden-a-958646.html

porsche statement still disappointing. 

Can someone translate this into English? Thank you.

nberry:

Porsche made over 3B dollars last year. It reported 173% surge in operating profit compared to the VW brand which had a 21% decline.

Porsche could care less as to what we think. They have expanded their customer base and sport car enthusiast like ourselves have been marginalized. No need to listen to us.

I agree a little bit with you but you may be surprised to hear that both, the upper management and Weissach, care a lot about us sports car lovers. Unfortunately this doesn't mean they can (or want to) change the current course of the company, it is just too profitable.  Let's just hope that the huge profit they made and will make will help us to get better products from them.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Carlos from Spain:

reginos:

Get a Carrera S RWD Coupe, specify it reasonably,keep it to a max of €130-140.000 and you could not have any regrets. The performance will be all there in all practical terms and your outlay will not be hugely above the mainstream performance models and also much below exotics and special cars. 

And you will get a car you could easily keep for another 8-10 years.

This model is the sweet spot of the whole Porsche sports car range.

A RWD CarreraS Coupe configured the way I would order it does not go a penny bellow 145,000€ (and no X50, no PCCB, no PDDC, etc) , that is insane for a Carrera, and offering the worst value for money of the whole 911 line up to throw salt on top of the wound.

How did you go from €100.000 to €145.000? Leather everything etc.? Porsche speccing is like a rubber band. It stretches the more you pull it.

Personally I cannot find anything I would like more for similar or less money. The new Jaguar will also start from around 100.000 EUR for the basic model, I don't like the Corvette, the Mercedes AMG GT doesn't exist yet, and I wouldn't choose any of the ///M or AMG variants of mainstream saloons and coupes.

To get something significantly better than a Carrera S/4S someone has to add at least another 100.000 EUR (or 70%) to the budget and move up to supersports cars like the 458 and the Huracan. Yes, the Huracan is the only car that caught my fancy recently and I wish I could comfortably afford one.

In spite of our whinging, Porsche have the (relatively) affordable sportscar segment, if not all, by some 80% to themselves. They delivered more than 30.000 units of the 991model in 2013, a figure that would make every other sports car rival manufacturer drool over. I suppose they must be doing something correct.

"Form follows function"

ClockEm:

Gauss:

http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/porsche-911-gt3-die-ursache-fuer-zwei-braende-ist-gefunden-a-958646.html

porsche statement still disappointing. 

Can someone translate this into English? Thank you.

Not a great translation, but this is the gist, I think

Porsche has found the cause for two spectacular fires of 911 GT3. While the carmaker recommends not to use the car, he keeps the reason for the sudden fire once for themselves.

 

Stuttgart - after fires at two new Porsche 911 GT3 the sports car maker has apparently found the cause - it does not reveal but. "We know the reasons," Porsche boss Matthias Müller said in Stuttgart on Friday. Why the fire broke out, did not announce still Müller. "We currently test corrective actions," he said. Only if the problem had been solved, Porsche will "very detailed" commenting further. ...

Or, in other words, they know what the cause is but don't intend to comment further until they have a solution completely worked out.

reginos:

With this remit I would go for the Golf R and the Alfa 4C provided that the latter is as good to drive as it looks.

But I suppose you would want manual transmission on your sports car.

The Golf R is definitely of interest but the 4C doesn't appeal on paper.  Its too wide, doesn't have a manual transmission and I'm not keen on small turbo engines.  Actually, I was quite surprised how much I liked the Lotus supercharged motors.  Anyway, I'm hoping to drive the 4C soon just to check and I'm curious to see if the if the steering is as disappointing as the reviews suggest.

Gen II Cayman S

DaveC:

Despite all the very valid criticisms offered, Porsche still makes a sports car that does so many things so well.  

That I agree 100%, thats not where my criticisms come from. In fact I took a C4S for a test drive a few days ago 

Gnil:

Carlos from Spain:

I have been going through the same thing lately in the last year and I though it was just me, and having been a die hard fan of Porsche now I see that other big fans are thinking going through the same thing.

In the past generations of 911 I didn't even bother looking at any other sportscar, the choice was easy. But more and more I'm having difficulty fitting in the business philosophy of Porsche and desitions they are making. Seems like they are milking the cow, they offer less for more in a time were the market is doing the opposite, questionable reliability issues, forced turn-over facelift strategies, questionable newer model versions with cheap diesels, etc....

I keep delaying getting a new one because I really don't know what to do...

 

Porsche needs to separate the sports car from the SUV and sedan .

They also need to stop wanting to make volume with the 911 . The number of different models, face-lifts starting nearly before the whole range is out  is just insane and dilutes the car .  They should use the Cayenne, Macam and Panamera to make volume and most profit .

On the other side have the sports car, ( 911  etc.. ) and keep them exclusive by only having a few different models, lower numbers and keep it  '' authentic ''  ( price, performance, sportiness ) .  It will keep the image of Porsche high up , satisfy the core customers, keep the dream going for the future generation and then on the other side they can bank on the image by doing the mass products like Macan , Cayenne .

M4, F-Type are becoming alternatives ......

I agree, unfortunately they won't because they seem to be catering more to a different crowd than "us" that is more profitable.

reginos:

How did you go from €100.000 to €145.000? Leather everything etc.? Porsche speccing is like a rubber band. It stretches the more you pull it.

Nothing too much, but full leather for me is a must on a car of this level, but when you start adding options that should be standard on the CarreraS thats when Porsche makes a killing on you, the Carrera is bone stock, you get nothing on it from factory on a car that its 120k base price. Ridiculous. The only more excentric option I would want is the sportdesign aerokit, but I'm not even including PCCB, PDDC, Powerkit, etc. in the 150k pricetag I got in the online configurator. 150k for a Carrera thats going to be facelifted continuously across different version starting next year already 

In spite of our whinging, Porsche have the (relatively) affordable sportscar segment, if not all, by some 80% to themselves. They delivered more than 30.000 units of the 991model in 2013, a figure that would make every other sports car rival manufacturer drool over. I suppose they must be doing something correct.

I'm not saying they are not being succesfull at it though, just that they are turning away from their traditional customer and catering to a different crowd. Which may bite them in the arse on the long run though...

--

Carlos from Spain:

DaveC:

Despite all the very valid criticisms offered, Porsche still makes a sports car that does so many things so well.  

 

That I agree 100%, thats not where my criticisms come from. In fact I took a C4S for a test drive a few days ago 

 

looking good, Carlos, but where is the ocean? 

Porsche 911 GT3 - Guards Red 997 MKII Clubsport

Gauss:

Carlos from Spain:

DaveC:

Despite all the very valid criticisms offered, Porsche still makes a sports car that does so many things so well.  

 

That I agree 100%, thats not where my criticisms come from. In fact I took a C4S for a test drive a few days ago 

 

looking good, Carlos, but where is the ocean? 

  Behind the fog, until a couple of days ago we have had 3 months of conitnuous rain! never seen winter like this one  good thing it was the C4S that day 

Actually the 991 C4S felt surprisingly very C2S, and that is a good thing, wasn't less agile or fun that what I remember the 991C2S to be.

This one also had the PDCC that I also wanted ot test on the 991, and my personal conclusion is that it doesn't need it, its not like the Cayenne or the Panamera, on the 911 the difference in the street is noticeable but not enough, felt flatter and especially the steering was more direct and sudden in changes of direction but didn't feel like it made a difference in actual handling "performance" at the end of the day, at least not on the street, maybe the track is a different story.

--

KresoF1:

Did you drove 991 Carrera S? Did extreme lack of low end and mid end torque bothered you? Even PDK in excellent Sport mode(not Sport +) can not hide apparent lack of torque. Only if you push the revs all the time 991 Carrera S feel fast and special.

I agree, the car lacks a bit of the "calmness" I like so much with the turbo charged cars. But then: I had limited experience with n/a cars recently - for me all n/a cars feel like you just described: they lack power in low revs. Even the 599 felt so. turbo once turbo forever 

KresoF1:
Only if you push the revs all the time 991 Carrera S feel fast and special.

And therein lies the appeal, even in a daily driver.  If I'm not in the mood to stir the gears and rev the nuts off the engine then I don't want to be going quickly.

Gen II Cayman S

Some options on 911 should be standard. PCM, full leather, sport chrono (it is a sport car...), reversing camera and such...

Carlos from Spain:

reginos:

How did you go from €100.000 to €145.000? Leather everything etc.? Porsche speccing is like a rubber band. It stretches the more you pull it.

Nothing too much, but full leather for me is a must on a car of this level, but when you start adding options that should be standard on the CarreraS thats when Porsche makes a killing on you, the Carrera is bone stock, you get nothing on it from factory on a car that its 120k base price. Ridiculous. The only more excentric option I would want is the sportdesign aerokit, but I'm not even including PCCB, PDDC, Powerkit, etc. in the 150k pricetag I got in the online configurator. 150k for a Carrera thats going to be facelifted continuously across different version starting next year already 

Actually, come the facelift the 3.800 engines will be gone and replaced by smaller capacity turbos. This might be one more reason for getting the current model.

The Aerokit is a 5000 EUR option It goes a long way towards covering PDK and PDCC.

I avoid full leather (needs more maintenance) and the fully motorized seats (not necessary).

"Form follows function"

If the 2015's will have 200nm more torque it should significantly change the driving experience.

Gnil:

Carlos from Spain:

I have been going through the same thing lately in the last year and I though it was just me, and having been a die hard fan of Porsche now I see that other big fans are thinking going through the same thing.

In the past generations of 911 I didn't even bother looking at any other sportscar, the choice was easy. But more and more I'm having difficulty fitting in the business philosophy of Porsche and desitions they are making. Seems like they are milking the cow, they offer less for more in a time were the market is doing the opposite, questionable reliability issues, forced turn-over facelift strategies, questionable newer model versions with cheap diesels, etc....

I keep delaying getting a new one because I really don't know what to do...

 

Porsche needs to separate the sports car from the SUV and sedan .

They also need to stop wanting to make volume with the 911 . The number of different models, face-lifts starting nearly before the whole range is out  is just insane and dilutes the car .  They should use the Cayenne, Macam and Panamera to make volume and most profit .

On the other side have the sports car, ( 911  etc.. ) and keep them exclusive by only having a few different models, lower numbers and keep it  '' authentic ''  ( price, performance, sportiness ) .  It will keep the image of Porsche high up , satisfy the core customers, keep the dream going for the future generation and then on the other side they can bank on the image by doing the mass products like Macan , Cayenne .

M4, F-Type are becoming alternatives ......

The 911 volumes are derived from offering many variants, which is not a bad thing IMO. No other manufacturer can offer coupe, cabrio, targa, RWD, AWD, GT models each with its own attraction and clientele. A Targa 4 buyer is different from a GT3 buyer and it is not the same car.

What I don't like is the existence of the Macan which is a too mainstream concept and the low powered variants of the Cayenne and Panamera. Every Porsche should fullfill a certain Power to Weight ratio before being approved for production.

I cannot see why the F Type is any better than the 911, unless someone wants a change for the sake of change. 

And the M4? A good Price to Performance relationship as it should be expected from a high performance version of a mainstream BMW model.

"Form follows function"

The turbo S sells for $182,000 the cheapest  I was offered a F12 for was $395,000

quite a spread!