Crown

Agree.  Who really cares about copy right law.? If Porsche is so busy trying to fix the GT3 I would think they would care less what was posted on this site.  Move on.

KMM:

This is so convenient. It's like reading two different threads in one place, one about engine failures, another about copyright law, without the hassle of navigating from one to the other. 

Plus, I learned that I have the wrong job. It turns out I could read all the car forums on business hours, and get paid for it, if I am in the legal team. Polishing up my resume.

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

Very depressing for Porsche not to have their star car of 2013-14, the GT3, on display in a high profile motor show like Geneva.

I suppose if it was there, Porsche personnel would be inundated with embarrassing questions by potential customers.

Also a sign of the times is that the Porsche generating the most interest at the Show was the Macan! I could hardly see the shape of the car as it was constantly full of people with doors and hatchback almost permanently opened. I am afraid Porsche have embarked on a very short term, myopic I would say, product strategy

"Form follows function"

reginos:

Also a sign of the times is that the Porsche generating the most interest at the Show was the Macan! I could hardly see the shape of the car as it was constantly full of people with doors and hatchback almost permanently opened. 

That was the same when I was there . You could approach and see any Carrera easily, but the Macan.... always surrounded by many people . This car will bring in even more customers then expected .

--

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

The Macan is the first affordable Porsche which is available to a broader customer group. I am not surprised.

However, I also think that the Macan will dilute the brand and create a lot of issues for sportscar sales. Unless performance is much better than on competitors but right now, unfortunately, I don't really see that. Porsche (and VW) are walking a thin line here because at some point, if someone has to choose to spend 200k for a car, he/she will decide based on performance and exclusivity. If both aren't out of the ordinary, well... 

I usually don't care much about how other people perceive my Porsche car, other than I like it when it attracts less attention but I am NOT willing to pay a premium for a car which isn't much different than others in performance but costs the same but without the exclusivity of the others. Porsche really needs to be careful here, this is why they need to up their game with the 911 and the rumored 960, otherwise people will think twice before spending so much money for a Porsche.

I love Porsche but at some point, when that thin red line is passed...I pass.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Several sources indicate that the root cause of the GT3 engine problems stem from the fact that, in the bigger scheme of things, cost controll aspects won out in the design process for the new base "race" engine.

An engineering source pointed out that in a base "race" engine, you would expect to see certain design features (e.g replaceable cylinder casings), which are not present in the new GT3 engine. And that failed supplier parts, more often than not, are a reflection of cost cutting pressure.  

RC:

I usually don't care much about how other people perceive my Porsche car, other than I like it when it attracts less attention but I am NOT willing to pay a premium for a car which isn't much different than others in performance but costs the same but without the exclusivity of the others. Porsche really needs to be careful here, this is why they need to up their game with the 911 and the rumored 960, otherwise people will think twice before spending so much money for a Porsche.

I agree 100 %  . I have never looked elsewhere in the past 10 years, but now I do look at alternatives to Porsche as... as you say, it is loosing exclusivity  and performance is the same  as cheaper cars .

Porsche needs to differentiate  more the sports line from the general-plublic line .

People who were around the Maccan at the Geneva show were not the usual Porsche customers .  It was more the Audi customers looking for a small SUV

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

I will be frank: If the next generation 911 Turbo isn't by far superior to the competition, I will look somewhere else. My kids will soon be older, I care less and less about neighbors and customers, so at some point, I will make a move which may actually move me away from Porsche. The Ferrari F12 was a huge temptation for me. For only 50k more, I could have had a monster engine, monster performance and lots more emotions than in the Porsche.

Porsche really has to be careful here: I live in Germany, in a socially challenging environment. This is why I need to be careful with the cars I choose. Most people who buy a 911 Turbo or a 960 for that matter live in a different (social) environment or they just don't care. For the same money and same performance, these people will choose the more emotional car. This is where Porsche only can loose right now.

Maybe it is time Porsche splits into two devisions: Porsche Motorsport and Porsche. Porsche Motorsport takes care of the sports cars and Porsche takes care of the Cayenne, Macan and the Panamera. Then, the Porsche sportscars, need to be much faster and better than the competition. Maybe even at the cost of a smaller (net) profit per car.

I hope Porsche listens to this because I know quite a lot of people, including myself, who started to look elsewhere for a car. My new family truck, the Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT, is just an example. It is not better than the Cayenne GTS but it is slightly faster (at least straight line). The fun factor isn't much different and the standard options are amazing. Also the Jeep costs almost 50% less (I "paid" 64k EUR after rebate, the Cayenne GTS was close to 121k EUR). I am sorry, Porsche but this is just too much. Also, the competition closes in pretty fast, I am amazed how good the SRT brakes are for example. Same goes to the tranny and engine. Everybody cooks with water now and the same suppliers who supply Porsche or Ferrari are supplying other, less valuable, companies with parts too. I bet that Chrysler's net profit on the Jeep GC SRT isn't even close to the Cayenne GTS but this is what I am talking about. Porsche may be a great company and they build amazing cars but the competitors do (almost) the same and they are closing in faster and faster. At some point, the difference will be very little and this is where people start to decide if the price tag is worth it or...the performance. Quality-wise, the gap closes too. No car company can afford nowadays to build bad cars.

Porsche needs to think about the future and if the future is Macan-oriented only, it won't be my future. Sorry. Yes, I like the Macan and I may even get one but this doesn't mean I would get another Porsche sports car if the competition does the same or better for less or the same money.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

olli:

Several sources indicate that the root cause of the GT3 engine problems stem from the fact that, in the bigger scheme of things, cost controll aspects won out in the design process for the new base "race" engine.

An engineering source pointed out that in a base "race" engine, you would expect to see certain design features (e.g replaceable cylinder casings), which are not present in the new GT3 engine. And that failed supplier parts, more often than not, are a reflection of cost cutting pressure.  

 

This rumor has been alive for a very long time, actually since the GT3 was presented to the public for the very first time. Don't believe everything you read (or hear) but the supplier part issue could be related to cost cutting pressure but this is why Porsche needs to choose suppliers more carefully. We know from VW how bad supplier issues can end...

Another problem is maybe that Porsche doesn't really manufacture certain parts themselves anymore. I remember the issues with my Panamera Turbo S. The manufacturer of the faulty turbo chargers, MHI as far as I remember, promised a certain build quality but apparently... They switched to normal turbo chargers because apparently, MHI wasn't capable to meet the quality demands. Unbelievable. My car was already ready but I had to wait almost 6 weeks for it to be modified, equipped with different turbo chargers and so on. Porsche's service during this time was exceptional and great but this is not something which should happen to a company like Porsche.

They need to end quality issues like that because sooner or later, they will blow up in their face. They also should start to consider some sort of customer pre-production car testing, where selected customers get a car for testing, so they sort out all of the remaining (minor or bigger) issues. I know that car journalists (and Porsche employees and their families) are supposed to do this "job" but I think that customers treat these cars different than any of these "test" groups. Also, they are much more honest in their opinions. Just saying... Too much risk involved? What are NDAs and Waivers of Liability for?

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

The Ferrari F12 was a huge temptation for me. For only 50k more, I could have had a monster engine, monster performance and lots more emotions than in the Porsche.

 

Not more emotions maybe - but different emotions 

MKSGR:
Not more emotions maybe - but different emotions 

I completely agree.

I think that cars like the F12 and the Huracan have an obvious appeal. However, I think one's perspective changes after having driven such cars for a few ten of thousands of KM. Things that made these cars appealing BEFORE owning them, start to wear off.

I agree that that Porsche needs to be careful to stay on top of the "number game" as at this price point people love to brag about numbers. That being said, I think that the appeal of fast 911s is not entirely comparable to that of an "exotic".

I think it depends on how one wants to "live" the car. If you want to drive it 20K + km per year, across Europe irrespective of the weather, park it everywhere and never feel "out of place" or overly protective towards the car (I always felt like this towards the 599 GTB) and yet feel like you own something "special", then the 911 is still the ultimate car for such a use.

If you want a car to have fun on the weekends? Well, then I wouldn't blame you for preferring a Ferrari/Lamborghini. The 599 GTO is still the most exciting car I ever drove (a world away from the GTB or F12 in terms of sheer excitement/drama).

Porsche is already taking to the press but not the customers:

This is not good news: 

http://www.worldcarfans.com/114031471758/porsche-9...

ClockEm:

Porsche is already taking to the press but not the customers:

This is not good news: 

http://www.worldcarfans.com/114031471758/porsche-9...

Hmm this is interesting. Paul Ellis is from Porsche Australia, unless he has now moved to Germany. Why is Porsche Australia talking to the press about this?

Porsche spokesman, Paul Ellis, told Drive there is "no update from the factory" on the situation and that the severity of the issue has not yet been fully identified.

Porsche Australia spokesman and this clearly states that he doesn't have a clue either.

The internet...again. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

FlatSix911:

MKSGR:
Not more emotions maybe - but different emotions 

I completely agree.

I think that cars like the F12 and the Huracan have an obvious appeal. However, I think one's perspective changes after having driven such cars for a few ten of thousands of KM. Things that made these cars appealing BEFORE owning them, start to wear off.

I agree that that Porsche needs to be careful to stay on top of the "number game" as at this price point people love to brag about numbers. That being said, I think that the appeal of fast 911s is not entirely comparable to that of an "exotic".

IMO paying more than €130-140K for any 911 is unreasonable. At this price ceiling the performance, usability, history and charisma of a 911 is without competition.

But at the €200K and beyond that Porsche have exploded the Turbo pricing (imagine the price of a 991 GT2) the cost-benefit equation is utopian. At these prices people start evaluating the intangibles as well as all the other attributes.For these price ranges Porsche need to bring a real exotic to the market, no matter how good the current Turbo might be from the engineering point of view.

--

"Form follows function"

The unprecedented success of the Cayenne, WW's failure to take over VW, and the increasing pressures of government regulation have determined the direction of Porsche, not the wishes of a small group of enthusiasts.  If the only real alliterative to Porsche sports cars is Ferrari rather than BMW or Mercedes, then Porsche has relatively little to be concerned about.  Only the Turbo S begins to overlap w/ Ferrari and I will hazard a guess that most 911 buyers are not going to step that far up in price to a California T let alone an F12. 

--

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

MKSGR:

RC:

The Ferrari F12 was a huge temptation for me. For only 50k more, I could have had a monster engine, monster performance and lots more emotions than in the Porsche.

 

Not more emotions maybe - but different emotions 

No, definetely more emotions. The F12 sounded better, the interior looked better, the smell, the finish, everything looks much more special (just compare the 991 Turbo S to the Boxster S interior and you understand... ). The engine? I don't even know where to start, amazing. Yes, it is a Ferrari but at some point, in the range above 200k EUR, I have to make a decision. If Porsche doesn't understand that the Turbo/S needs a different interior than the regular Carrera for example, then we already have a problem. Porsche even saves money by using the "Turbo" gearbox lever logo instead of a specific Turbo S logo. How crazy is that on a 200+k car?!

Please don't misunderstand me: I love my 991 Turbo S and I will keep it until the lease runs out but I'm not sure I will go for the facelift (with another 20-40 hp more...in three years) or choose something completely different. The 960 could be interesting too but since I guess this is going to be a two seater...

The whole 911 line got too expensive in my opinion. My dealer has Carrera S Coupes for close to 150k EUR. This is insane. Compared to that, a GT3 almost seems like a bargain.

Also, if Porsche introduces these turbo charged Carrera engines, things for the Turbo will look even more grim. Why is this car called "Turbo" again? Look at what happened with the Panamera after a good first run. They switched the V8 on the 4/S to a turbo charged V6 and sales numbers seem to have... Is Porsche serious? I would NEVER pay 130k EUR for a Panamera with a turbo charged V6 engine. Even if it had 600 hp. No kidding.

I could continue on and on but with record sales figures, I doubt Porsche will change anything. So in the end, maybe...MAYBE...I will be forced to move on.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

BTW, check out todays Sport Auto... 991 Turbo was tested against R8 V10. Is 991 Turbo S really a better buy if we look at 991 Turbo test results?

Gnil:

I agree 100 %  . I have never looked elsewhere in the past 10 years, but now I do look at alternatives to Porsche as... as you say, it is loosing exclusivity  and performance is the same  as cheaper cars .

RC:

I hope Porsche listens to this because I know quite a lot of people, including myself, who started to look elsewhere for a car. 

KresoF1:
I agree.

I already made a decision to order 991 Turbo S but... I start to think little bit more about my decision and made my own in-depth analysis of what kind of sportscar do I need.

I have been going through the same thing lately in the last year and I though it was just me, and having been a die hard fan of Porsche now I see that other big fans are thinking going through the same thing.

In the past generations of 911 I didn't even bother looking at any other sportscar, the choice was easy. But more and more I'm having difficulty fitting in the business philosophy of Porsche and desitions they are making. Seems like they are milking the cow, they offer less for more in a time were the market is doing the opposite, questionable reliability issues, forced turn-over facelift strategies, questionable newer model versions with cheap diesels, etc....

I keep delaying getting a new one because I really don't know what to do...

My situation is subtly different but the outcome is the same.  After years of Porsche being my default sports car choice I do not want the 981/991.  But this is mainly beacuse I feel Porsche have gone too far in diluting the driving experience to broaden the market appeal.  That the exclusivity is also being diluted and prices are high just makes matters worse.

Gen II Cayman S

RC,  I  have specced a Carrera S RWD, Coupe on the German configurator , to my liking and it came to €137.000 before any dealer discounts. Not bad IMO considering that I included Special paint, X51 and PDCC among others. I just avoided expensive cosmetic extras which are meaningless to me. However, someone could delete the X51 and add plenty of other goodies.

An iconic sports car with excellent all round performance and usability for half the price of an exotic.

Things start getting out of proportion if you go to the Cabrio/Targa variants, add 4WD and of course to the 991 Turbo models with their utopian pricing. I believe that the Turbo name (and its price range) will be  eventually dropped when all 911s are turbocharged. Porsche will offer a 911, a 911S, a GTS, a GT3 and the 960 supersports car selling above the current Turbo S but below the 458.

"Form follows function"

GR:

My situation is subtly different but the outcome is the same.  After years of Porsche being my default sports car choice I do not want the 981/991.  But this is mainly beacuse I feel Porsche have gone too far in diluting the driving experience to broaden the market appeal.  That the exclusivity is also being diluted and prices are high just makes matters worse.

What you are saying reflects the way many (including myself) question the Porsche evolution.

What alternatives are you considering?

"Form follows function"

Carlos from Spain:

I keep delaying getting a new one because I really don't know what to do...

 

Get a Carrera S RWD Coupe, specify it reasonably,keep it to a max of €130-140.000 and you could not have any regrets. The performance will be all there in all practical terms and your outlay will not be hugely above the mainstream performance models and also much below exotics and special cars. 

And you will get a car you could easily keep for another 8-10 years.

This model is the sweet spot of the whole Porsche sports car range.

"Form follows function"

I don't know about Germany ,but in the US you can buy 2 turbo S for the price of on F12.

Hmm... I do not agree with you. There are cars that are as capable on the track as Carrera S and faster on the autobahn for less money(Jaguar F-Type R Coupe as example).

We have to a admit the fact that other manufactures are offering good sportscars we well. Porsche is no longer the one and only natural choice for true sportscar enthusiast.

In 991 series Porsche offered as much new tech as possible to level the things since(and we have to be ruthlessly truthfull here) rear engine + short wheelbase layout is slowly reaching its limit and potential. RWS, PDCC, PTM etc. are a nice tech gimmicks that acutally work very well indeed in 991 models. But... What is a trade mark of 911(991) lately? Only shape and RWD layout? Sorry, not enough this time for me personally.

Also, I have a feeling that "Mikly, milky" market strategy is wrong. Mercedes is doing differenty-new AMG GT will be little bit smaller then SLS AMG, faster on both tracka nd straight line, "greener", more practical(normal door and hatchback) and way cheaper then SLS AMG. This is the case when company listens their potential costumers...

Even in 997 generation Porsche was the best sportscar be it in Carrera S, Turbo or GT3 version. Is it the same in 991 range? I do not think so despite the fact that 991 is a brilliant sportcar. I have a feeling that problem is not something with a easy fix. Other manufactures are simple better then ever and Porsche is no loger the sole "Sports car desert Island".

FlatSix911:

MKSGR:
Not more emotions maybe - but different emotions 

I completely agree.

I think that cars like the F12 and the Huracan have an obvious appeal. However, I think one's perspective changes after having driven such cars for a few ten of thousands of KM. Things that made these cars appealing BEFORE owning them, start to wear off.

 

It is funny - whenever I read your posts I feel like I could have written them myself 

RC:

MKSGR:

RC:

The Ferrari F12 was a huge temptation for me. For only 50k more, I could have had a monster engine, monster performance and lots more emotions than in the Porsche.

 

Not more emotions maybe - but different emotions 

No, definetely more emotions. The F12 sounded better, the interior looked better, the smell, the finish, everything looks much more special (just compare the 991 Turbo S to the Boxster S interior and you understand... ).

Christian, I understand you. However, I bet your perspective would change if you owned the F12 and drove it for some time. These cars are more attractive at first glance than in the long run. As FlatSix911 wrote above: the excitement wears off  bit. With the Porsches the excitement grows over time 

DJC:

I don't know about Germany ,but in the US you can buy 2 turbo S for the price of on F12.

My 991 Turbo S is around 205k EUR give or take. The F12 I got offered was 260k (or was it 250k or even 240k EUR, I kind of forgot , too many numbers in my head right now), it was quite an interesting offer though . Both new and incl. 19% VAT. Ferrari dealer wanted to get rid of the car, sales person mentioned something about the previous buyer jumping ship and not paying or something like that and dealer needed cash fast. Lease offer was quite bad though and dealer wanted decision fast (within 48 hours). Almost bought the car but wife put some sense into me.

New price tag of the F12 in Germany is 268k EUR or so, new price tag of the 991 Turbo S is 197k EUR. So the price difference between both base prices is 71k EUR. Not really much. A McLaren 12C Spider for example is 231k EUR in Germany, the Coupe is around 220k and you can get cars usually around 200k after dealer rebate.

As you can see, the price difference isn't really that big between the three (Turbo S, 12C, F12), the Huracan won't be much different.

Germany is a tough market for sports car manufacturers, not only because flashy cars don't sell that well over here but also because we actually DRIVE these cars, not only look at them and the Turbo S is kind of a really good daily driver and all.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

reginos:

GR:

My situation is subtly different but the outcome is the same.  After years of Porsche being my default sports car choice I do not want the 981/991.  But this is mainly beacuse I feel Porsche have gone too far in diluting the driving experience to broaden the market appeal.  That the exclusivity is also being diluted and prices are high just makes matters worse.

What you are saying reflects the way many (including myself) question the Porsche evolution.

What alternatives are you considering?

To achieve the broad range of capability that my 987 provides, I am going to have to get 2 cars but that does allow each to be better in their focussed role.  The pure sports car will likely be a supercharged Lotus Elise (swift, agile, huge fun and cheap to track) but I am also considering the V6 Exige and I am keen to try the Zenos E10 when it is launched.  A daily driver is much harder to pin down but I am thinking along the lines of:  top end BMW 3 series/M3/Alpina, Macan (oh the irony) or Golf R.  I want something realtively fast, fun to drive, luxurious (ambience not toys) and practical on the commute.

The M3 is currently my favourite because I think it will be the best at driving a long distance but still being really rewarding on the challenging roads or even track at the end of that journey.  However, I seem to change my mind every week! 

Gen II Cayman S