Crown

We must wait and see the cause and the remedy. We must not jump into conclusions.

Even if it just a wrong batch of con rods (the most benign of possibilities) Porsche need time to verify that cause beyond any doubt because a second mistake will be intolerable. A new batch of rods needs to be manufactured, probably with upgraded spec for extra safety. Then, all the engines , some 800 (?) will have to be remanufactured or built from scratch which is a long procedure given that the flat 6 engines are not built in a completely automated way and the busy schedule of the Porsche engine shops. It is definitely a job that could not be done in a month.

Porsche are handling the matter responsibly , in that they haven't proceeded quickly into conclusions and announcements, even if this delay hurts their image in the short term.

There is no doubt that this is a grand fiasco but IMO Porsche haven't tried to correct one mistake with another.

--

"Form follows function"

911rox:

frayed:

 

You guys are acting like Porsche has bent the rules of physics to rev to 9000 rpm.  Several motors from other manufacturers have already been to 9k, with similar piston speeds. 

 

Actually, as I remember it Porsche were the ones carrying on about the 9000 rpm redline when the car was launched and claiming accolades for their achievement... Yep, many before them have done it.... They are seemingly proving they just can't do it right....

Please explain/proof how the higher rpm is linked to the current issues? You can't! 
It really is becoming quite ridiculous here. Thread dropped.

Jesse, not suggesting that rpms have anything to do with the current issue... I was eluding to the fact that Porsche have been putting far greater emphasis on what an achievement the new motor's redline is amongst other things, not us guys on forums because 9k redlines have been around for a long time in streetcars. My point is that we had to have a new motor according to them yet they couldn't get it right...

I'd much prefer to have seen the GT cars remain Mezger based like their motorsport cars and engineering time spent on a quick fix for the coolant fittings (which the aftermarket shops have been doing for years) and a housing to adapt PDK to the Mezger since in their eyes it was a required transmission. 

911rox:

... My point is that we had to have a new motor according to them yet they couldn't get it right...

...

Isn't this begging the question? You're assuming they didn't "get it right" to make a point that they didn't get it right. Given that there's no confirmation at all of what the cause is, I think it's a little premature to declare that, "they couldn't get it right." 

Isn't this begging the question? You're assuming they didn't "get it right" to make a point that they didn't get it right. Given that there's no confirmation at all of what the cause is, I think it's a little premature to declare that, "they couldn't get it right." 

I agree!

911rox is just here to complain non stop about the 991 GT3, complete with declaratory statements and hyperbole.  Just ignore him.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

At the end of the day I don't care whether the GT3 has a Mezger or 9A1 motor in it.  What I care about is that whichever motor Porsche chooses to use in the GT3, it's the same one they run in the GT3 Cup car. 

If you buy a Ferrari 458 you're getting the same drivetrain that Ferrari is running in the 458 Challenge cars, with the only differences of any significance being a lighter, higher flow exhaust and a shorter gearset.  That's the way it used to be with the GT3 and I think the move away from that while perhaps better for profits in the short-run will prove a mistake longer term.

Beyond that there is a certain irony in the current situation given one of Porsche's arguments for moving to a new production-based motor was to reduce the risk of human error in the engine build.

None of this helps the guys dealing with the current situation and I feel for them.  All I can say is they should be happy Porsche is taking the situation to heart and working on a solution. 

It might have been MUCH cheaper in the long run to make the Mezger motor DFI and PDK capable. 9K would not have been a problem for that motor.  That would have quieted many of us and kept the racing motor on the street as well.

Here complaining about the 991 am I frayed? No, my issue isn't the 991. i'd love to have the confidence in it to add to my garage. I'm complaining about Porsche giving us customers half baked cakes for dessert. and now taking them back to rebake... 

Apologies for not blindly believing but then again, like most, you probably will only keep the car for 2 years and hand it in before warranty is up. When I burn that kind of money, it's for a keeper and expect to buy a car that'll still go strong in 10 years time, not for bragging rights at the local cafe/pub...

911rox:

Here complaining about the 991 am I frayed? No, my issue isn't the 991. i'd love to have the confidence in it to add to my garage. I'm complaining about Porsche giving us customers half baked cakes for dessert. and now taking them back to rebake... 

Apologies for not blindly believing but then again, like most, you probably will only keep the car for 2 years and hand it in before warranty is up. When I burn that kind of money, it's for a keeper and expect to buy a car that'll still go strong in 10 years time, not for bragging rights at the local cafe/pub...

I think the point is that no one (at least outside of Porsche) knows if all the cakes are half baked or over baked, if a few of them were made with bad eggs, if some eggshell ended up in the batter, if there's too much or too little frosting on a few of them, and so on. So, why complain about all the cakes being half baked until you know they actually are?

It's not about blindly believing, it's about not jumping to utterly unfounded conclusions regarding the exact cause and nature of the problem and, then, basing arguments, about exactly where Porsche went wrong and why, on what is really nothing more than rampant speculation.

911rox:

Here complaining about the 991 am I frayed? No, my issue isn't the 991. i'd love to have the confidence in it to add to my garage. I'm complaining about Porsche giving us customers half baked cakes for dessert. and now taking them back to rebake... 

Apologies for not blindly believing but then again, like most, you probably will only keep the car for 2 years and hand it in before warranty is up. When I burn that kind of money, it's for a keeper and expect to buy a car that'll still go strong in 10 years time, not for bragging rights at the local cafe/pub...

You are being presumptuous, yet again, and now have expanded to gross stereotyping.  Geesh, you know no boundaries and seem to be blind to your own drivel.

Cafe.  LOL.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

apias:

It's not about blindly believing, it's about not jumping to utterly unfounded conclusions regarding the exact cause and nature of the problem and, then, basing arguments, about exactly where Porsche went wrong and why, on what is really nothing more than rampant speculation.

Exactly.

Maybe it was a colossal engineering or quality control F-UP.  Maybe not.  Fact is nobody outside PAG knows, or if someone outside PAG knows, it hasn't been posted here. 

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

frayed:

911rox:

Here complaining about the 991 am I frayed? No, my issue isn't the 991. i'd love to have the confidence in it to add to my garage. I'm complaining about Porsche giving us customers half baked cakes for dessert. and now taking them back to rebake... 

Apologies for not blindly believing but then again, like most, you probably will only keep the car for 2 years and hand it in before warranty is up. When I burn that kind of money, it's for a keeper and expect to buy a car that'll still go strong in 10 years time, not for bragging rights at the local cafe/pub...

You are being presumptuous, yet again, and now have expanded to gross stereotyping.  Geesh, you know no boundaries and seem to be blind to your own drivel.

Cafe.  LOL.

Feel free to go on record here and tell us how many days you intend on keeping the your car out of warranty if I'm presumptuous and wrong???... Don't forget to report back and let us now how it goes...

I see many people putting on a brave face about this but I doubt this would be the case if their intention was to keep their vehicle long term...

Let you get back to hoping....

911rox:

Feel free to go on record here and tell us how many days you intend on keeping the your car out of warranty if I'm presumptuous and wrong???... Don't forget to report back and let us now how it goes...

I see many people putting on a brave face about this but I doubt this would be the case if their intention was to keep their vehicle long term...

Let you get back to hoping....

You seem to be missing the point: You're running wild with your "analysis" of the problem and its causes without any, you know, actual facts to base such an analysis on.

Maybe it's just me, but I always like to know what the facts are before I analyze what caused the facts to be the facts.

Too hard to tell.  Could be 6 months or 6 years.  If the car delivers the way I expect, then 6 years.  If I don't warm up to PDK, then 6 months.  Ive had my 964 Turbo for over 6 years.

But neither has to do with my lack of faith in Porsche.  It has to do with how compelling I find the car for combo street/track use.  Or if I decide to buy a new offshore fishing boat.  Or remodel the cottage.  Things independent of this singular, engine related event.

And I don't go to 'meets' do not pimp my rides at 'cafes/pubs'.  I do, however, take my cars to the track.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

GT3 review

http://youtu.be/BU_qEHpRiCo?t=21s

--

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

I do like the Aston and can't wait for the AMG era. But the GT3 is just ...well....epic!

2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2012 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab. Range Rover V8 on order June14 - GT3 or Huracan to add next......decisions decisions decisions.....

Taking the pants off a 991 GT3:

It was one of 2 local cars. The event was our local PCA club new members night.

After reading all these comments about GT3 self-combusted.....  Everyone is speculating the problems.....  I wish I know how to post some photos of my 991S self-combusted in flame 2013/5.  I have hired a trusted foundation for investigation and they suspected its comming from left rear corner of the area.  However, the car was burned down completely, so not much left to investgate.  Took me 3 month to go through all the nightmare.  Local Porsche here said its not their problem since they are only reginal sales here.  If anybody would like to see and help me post these photos, I would love to show these photos up.    Porsche Signapore send a guy to come and see the left-over car two days after the fire, and after that, never seen him again.    Since I was really a true Porsche lover! I was stupid enough to place another order on TTS, and then just right before the delivery this GT3fire really shaken my confidence, and took the delivery of my TTS and immed. sold it to used car dealership here!!!  Lost a lot of money, but I am not taking any risk on this company again.....    

so If anybody like to help me post these photos, I can surely send all photos through, and the key photo to show where the fire starts; the tip of the fuel line! The investigator stated the colour of the burn was a very clear to see the fire started from the fuel line..... I am assuming GT3 fuel line is the same set up! 

apias:

911rox:

Feel free to go on record here and tell us how many days you intend on keeping the your car out of warranty if I'm presumptuous and wrong???... Don't forget to report back and let us now how it goes...

I see many people putting on a brave face about this but I doubt this would be the case if their intention was to keep their vehicle long term...

Let you get back to hoping....

You seem to be missing the point: You're running wild with your "analysis" of the problem and its causes without any, you know, actual facts to base such an analysis on.

Maybe it's just me, but I always like to know what the facts are before I analyze what caused the facts to be the facts.

The facts:

- the car was announced a year ago, with deliveries suggested to begin in September...

- it has received numerous fantastic reviews regarding performance- no denying it

- delays began late last year with rumours suggesting amongst other things that one possible cause was rods exiting cranks on one or two test cars- nobody knows and Porsche has given no reasons for delays...

- first deliveries begin to trickle in late November with reasonable volumes pushing through in January 14

-in Feb 14, two cars go up like beefeater barbeques

- 1 week later a stop supply is announced and a week later they want them back... pending investigations

-one year after their announcement, most are sitting at dealerships or garages, not allowed to be driven and people are facing months of delays and uncertainties... Pending owners possibly having waiting times increased several months whilst they sort out the existing mess.

These are the FACTS, not a doomsday theory...My speculation and jumping to conclusions happened 12 months ago on page 7 or 8 of this thread. Whats fanciful is that people actually want it spelt out as to what the problem is before they'll accept there is a problem... 

Performance is obviously critical and the new car has delivered that although it's been done at the expense of reliability and track worthiness. A reasonable person doesn't need to see Porsche's findings on  the root cause of the issue at hand to come to this conclusion, only somebody in denial... I doubt Porsche will even be truthfully forthcoming with the real reasons... enough said...

911rox:

The facts:

...

Performance is obviously critical and the new car has delivered that although it's been done at the expense of reliability and track worthiness. A reasonable person doesn't need to see Porsche's findings on  the root cause of the issue at hand to come to this conclusion, only somebody in denial... I doubt Porsche will even be truthfully forthcoming with the real reasons... enough said...

None of the "facts" you cite justify your conclusion that: "the new car has delivered [performance] although it's been done at the expense of reliability and track worthiness."

A reasonable person does need to see findings to come to a conclusion, that's more or less what being reasonable means.

All those facts can reasonably lead to my conclusion... One year after announcement and 6 months after the suggested beginning of deliveries, are 991 gt3s circling race tracks all around the world, making 997s look like moving chicanes as they should??? There's your answer...

Four and a half years on, I'm still waiting for a true explanation as to why the CLs fitted to 997.2s require increased torque and ridiculous maintenance as they do. Porsche tell me I have to now torque them to 600Nm and replace them every 7000km, both non requirements when I purchased my car BUT they do tell me they are perfectly fine and in perfect working order as designed ( eyes rolling with sarcasm)... Best of luck getting a hold of their findings regarding this latest issue...

frayed:

GT3 review

http://youtu.be/BU_qEHpRiCo?t=21s

Porsche 911 GT3 vs Aston Martin V12 Vantage S on track

"Auto Express tests the new 991-generation Porsche 911 GT3 against the Aston Martin V12 Vantage S, the fastest ever Aston.

There are few things more evocative than a V12 sports car, but they are becoming rarer and rarer. Fortunately, Aston Martin has stayed true to its heritage and still makes 12-cylinder cars. The fastest one is the Aston Martin V12 Vantage S, which is now fitted with a new Sportshift gearbox and adaptive damping for the first time. The engine's been tuned as well- and it's the fastest production car Aston has ever made.

But how does it fare against arguably the most focused track-based sports car money can buy: the Porsche 911 GT3? To find out we took the new 991 GT3 to take on the Aston Martin in an Auto Express video track battle.

Now into its 3rd generation ever since its launch in 1999, the GT3 has been the benchmark for handling precision. The new 991 generation has 469bhp and 440Nm or torque from its 3.8-litre flat-six engine. For the first time it comes equipped with a PDK dual-clutch gearbox.

The Aston Martin V12 Vantage S squeezes Aston's biggest engine into their smallest and most focused sports car. With 565bhp and 620 Nm of torque, the V12 produces more power than the Porsche, but the Aston weighs 235kg more than the lightweight 911 - and for the first time, the V12 comes equipped with Aston's Sportshift automated manual gearbox.

With soaking wet tarmac and near-freezing temperatures the cars faced the toughest of challenges - but which one came out on top?

Well, the new 911 GT3 exceeded our expectations. The engine is astonishing, the chassis is equally capable and the PDK gearbox has been improved and it's perfectly suited to this type of car.

The Aston is great too - the V12 engine is packed with character and it has a playful chassis. There's also no doubting how stunning it looks, but against the stopwatch in wet conditions, the Porsche was 1.5 seconds a lap quicker - and in our dry practice laps it was a full 4 seconds faster than the Aston Martin. 

There really isn't any loser here. We're glad that both of these sports cars exist and it's been a privilege to drive them."

Porsche 911 GT3 vs Aston Martin V12 Vantage S on track -- Auto Express video link

Hi Guys,

Been given a completion build date today of March 31st, with a pick up from OPC of around Mid April.

throt

"I Have Done It!".

GT3 pick up?, when P find a fix..

Congrats throt and fingers crossed !

Porsche 911 GT3 - Guards Red 997 MKII Clubsport

throt:

Hi Guys,

Been given a completion build date today of March 31st, with a pick up from OPC of around Mid April.

? You have a date for your 991 GT3 delivery??

I called my dealer today: mine is still parked, with no instruction given from Porsche... :(

throt:

Hi Guys,

Been given a completion build date today of March 31st, with a pick up from OPC of around Mid April.

Did your dealer comment in any way on these dates possibly being influenced by the current situation?  

fritz

Whoopsy:

Taking the pants off a 991 GT3:

 

It was one of 2 local cars. The event was our local PCA club new members night.

That photograph is somewhat enlightening and shows one of the potential problems with rear/mid-engine configurations and their propensity to combust.  Unlike a front engined car, the entire exhaust system wraps around, and yes I was aware of this before seeing this photograph, complicating cooling demands.  In a front engined car, cooling air is much more accessible and parts of the exhaust system are placed aware from the central source, i.e.,  the internal combustion engine, of heat.  Therefore, small leaks, especially if under pressure of flammable fluids end with bad results.

Audi, with the R8, suffered several fires that destroyed test cars as result of heat build-up.  Audi has officially stated that the exceptional motor found in the RS6/7 will not find its way into the R8 as cooling demands could not be met with the mid-engine configuration; however, Audi has not ruled out smaller, turbocharged engines for the R8.

In conclusion, the addition of rear fender vents on the cars purported as 991 GT3RS test cars are probably much more essential than previously believed.  

FWIW, received an email from PCNA indicated that Porsche is close to a resolution and we will be called next week to let us know the results and what they plan to do about. Based on the phrasing of the email it appears it will not be until the end of next week but could be sooner.