Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: 997 GT3RS mk1 - Over rev ranges - Page1

Mar 5, 2014 7:19:37 PM

Bacchus: Junior; Loc: . , Switzerland; Posts: 98, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 2, 2014

997 GT3RS mk1 - Over rev ranges

First of all hi to y'all - I'm a newbie here Smiley

Second of all - sorry if I couldn't find the right thread, I'm still struggling a bit with the forum layout, and perhaps I don't really master the search function yet.

Third of all, I went to inspect a 997 GT3RS mk1 with about 10k on the clock today and of course asked for a read-out. The garage promptly arranged a mechanic with a laptop and the following data came out of the green beauty:

About 100-200 ignitions in Stage 1 (at 100 hours) and about 27 in Stage 2 (at 50 hours). Nothing in 3-6, which is a good thing. However, I'd still like to get some reassurance regarding the overrevs in 1 and 2, despite the Porsche approved guarantee.

Stage 1 doesn't seem to be a problem, as it's just hitting the limiter - which happens quite fast which such a jewel of an engine. And if I'm correct, 27 ignitions in stage 2 aren't a big deal either. After some rough calculations, this ought to equal about 0.06seconds?

what is the deal with the hours mentioned? Is this how long ago the last overrev occurred, or is this the engine hour at which it last occurred? So for example for the last stage 2 overrev, did it occur after 50 engine hours, or 50 engine hours ago?

Thanks for all the help guys and looking forward to discuss online and meet some of you IRL.

Happy driving! Smiley

--

M3 CSL / Alpina D3 Bi-Turbo Touring / RS2 Avant / GT3RS Kermit (coming up)

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Mar 5, 2014 7:25:24 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Bacchus

Re: 997 GT3RS mk1 - Over rev ranges

With the 996, it was preferable to avoid any Stage 2's, but I think with the 997.1 and forward they realigned the overrev zones and 27 in Stage 2 is very minimal - small fraction of a second beyond fuel-cutoff. This could likely occur without even a mechanical over-rev (selecting a gear too low on downshift). I wouldn't worry about it, if the rest of the PPI checks out.

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73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

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Mar 5, 2014 7:29:35 PM

Bacchus: Junior; Loc: . , Switzerland; Posts: 98, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 2, 2014; Reply to: Grant

Re: 997 GT3RS mk1 - Over rev ranges

Yeah, 996 had only 2 stages. 997 has 6. 1-3 for upchange overrevs, 4-6 for downshift, if I'm correct.

1 and 2 shouldn't be too much of a problem, 3 is possible damage, 4 likely damage, 5 very probably damage and 6 is...well...forget about your engine.

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M3 CSL / Alpina D3 Bi-Turbo Touring / RS2 Avant / GT3RS Kermit (coming up)

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Mar 5, 2014 8:16:10 PM

GR: Senior; Loc: S Bucks, England , United Kingdom; Posts: 779, Gallery; Registered on: May 17, 2005; Reply to: Bacchus

Re: 997 GT3RS mk1 - Over rev ranges

Regarding the 987/997, the warranty used to be void for 4 and above damage but it has changed in the UK so Porsche can sell cars with 6 damage if they have "inspected" it. I've got the background to this story and it is an absolute disgrace on the part of Porsche GB. Always get a damage report before buying a car and I would work on 1-3 being OK

--

Gen II Cayman S

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Mar 5, 2014 8:41:33 PM

M3ike: Pilot; Loc: Wil, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 316, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 14, 2007; Reply to: GR

Re: 997 GT3RS mk1 - Over rev ranges

It seems we have very similar taste in cars. From csl to kermit! If its the car from maienfeld, it has been advertised for at least half a year. Get the porsche 111 point check done and 1 year warranty. Then be prepared for big bills compared to the csl when you drive the car hard. Since having my car I had to replace clutch, pressure plate ( upgraded to 4.0 rs items) and differential, all known to be weak. now synchro of 2. and 3. gear. standard suspension on the mark 1 is also subpar compared to mark 2.

Cheers

Mike

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Mar 5, 2014 8:49:10 PM

Porker: Rennteam VIP; Loc: SZ , Switzerland; Posts: 7062, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 17, 2005; Reply to: M3ike

Re: 997 GT3RS mk1 - Over rev ranges

Welcome Bacchus

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2003 BMW M3 CSL

2013 MINI John Cooper Works GP

2014 BMW Alpina D3 biturbo Touring

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Mar 5, 2014 9:11:27 PM

Bacchus: Junior; Loc: . , Switzerland; Posts: 98, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 2, 2014; Reply to: M3ike

Re: 997 GT3RS mk1 - Over rev ranges

M3ike:

It seems we have very similar taste in cars. From csl to kermit! If its the car from maienfeld, it has been advertised for at least half a year. Get the porsche 111 point check done and 1 year warranty. Then be prepared for big bills compared to the csl when you drive the car hard. Since having my car I had to replace clutch, pressure plate ( upgraded to 4.0 rs items) and differential, all known to be weak. now synchro of 2. and 3. gear. standard suspension on the mark 1 is also subpar compared to mark 2.

Cheers

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the info - exactly, it's the one from Maienfeld. It's been sitting since July 2013, so even longer! It has Porsche Approved Guarantee so the 111 points check has been done and you get one year guarantee.

All in all, together with the read-out, I consider it to be a safe bet.

--

M3 CSL / Alpina D3 Bi-Turbo Touring / RS2 Avant / GT3RS Kermit (coming up)

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Mar 5, 2014 9:16:47 PM

Porker: Rennteam VIP; Loc: SZ , Switzerland; Posts: 7062, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 17, 2005; Reply to: M3ike

Re: 997 GT3RS mk1 - Over rev ranges

M3ike:

standard suspension on the mark 1 is also subpar compared to mark 2.

Cheers

Mike

I've done some limited research on suspension before deciding on a 997.1 RS rather than a 997.2 GT3, the consensus was that the 997.1 GT3's suspension was indeed supbar, the .1 RS's suspension was upgraded and rather suitable for track use. The 997.2 GT3's suspension is considered to be upgraded and more useable on the road.

Have you decided on upgrading/changing your RS' suspension? What do you consider the weak/limiting factor?

--

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2003 BMW M3 CSL / 2007 Porsche 911 GT3 RS / 2013 MINI John Cooper Works GP / 2014 BMW Alpina D3 biturbo Touring

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Mar 5, 2014 9:30:10 PM

M3ike: Pilot; Loc: Wil, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 316, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 14, 2007; Reply to: Porker

Re: 997 GT3RS mk1 - Over rev ranges

AFAIK there is no difference between 997.1GT3 and 997.1GT3RS suspension. Actually the GT3 has even a bit a better balance as with the wider rear the RS has more push due to more grip. With the standard suspension it seems the spring rates don't match the dampers, the Mk2 has also a thicker rear bar. I never felt comfortable with the standard setup, too much push, bouncy and sport mode unusable. I completely changed the suspension to Bilstein MDS, corner weighted etc. The cars are also very sensitive to rake between front and rear ride height. My car is now very predictable and balanced, a real joy to drive also at the limit. Tyre wear has also decreased a lot. Changing the rear diff has also made a huge difference ,traction with Pirelli Trofeo R is incredible. I also have next to less weight at the rear with the Akrapovic Cup exhaust without side muffler additionally an electronic throttle blipper when shifting down which makes the rear more stable when trail braking which is necessary with the Porsche weight distribution to be fast on track.

Sorry, don't want to hijack that thread. On Rennlist you find loads of info about the over revs and GT3 in general.

Cheers

Mike

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Mar 5, 2014 9:43:13 PM

Bacchus: Junior; Loc: . , Switzerland; Posts: 98, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 2, 2014; Reply to: M3ike

Re: 997 GT3RS mk1 - Over rev ranges

Not a problem Mike - feel free to vent your thoughts, interesting read!

--

M3 CSL / Alpina D3 Bi-Turbo Touring / RS2 Avant / GT3RS Kermit (coming up)

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Mar 6, 2014 8:17:19 AM

BjoernB: Rennteam Master; Loc: Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 4100, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 19, 2004; Reply to: Bacchus

Re: 997 GT3RS mk1 - Over rev ranges

I am no expert on readouts here - but why don't you get a 111 check and extend the warranty every year of ownership ? With this everything should be fine - or not ? yes

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Mar 6, 2014 9:14:01 AM

Bacchus: Junior; Loc: . , Switzerland; Posts: 98, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 2, 2014; Reply to: BjoernB

Re: 997 GT3RS mk1 - Over rev ranges

Hi BjoernB,

It comes with "Porsche Approved Garantie" so the 111 check has been done. Extending the warranty is a good idea for peace of mind.

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M3 CSL / Alpina D3 Bi-Turbo Touring / RS2 Avant / GT3RS Kermit (coming up)

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Mar 6, 2014 10:20:23 PM

DuckieRS: Senior; Loc: Belgium , Belgium; Posts: 786, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 15, 2007; Reply to: Bacchus

Re: 997 GT3RS mk1 - Over rev ranges

My 'plain Jane' hadn't even reached stage 1 before I bought her...

Pretty sure you're going green!

Anyway, welcome.

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Mar 7, 2014 5:44:04 AM

Bacchus: Junior; Loc: . , Switzerland; Posts: 98, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 2, 2014; Reply to: DuckieRS

Re: 997 GT3RS mk1 - Over rev ranges

Every respectable GT3 owner should at least reach stage 1!

Perhaps you have fixed that by now?

--

M3 CSL / Alpina D3 Bi-Turbo Touring / RS2 Avant / GT3RS Kermit (coming up)

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Mar 8, 2014 6:16:59 PM

Ian C: Junior; Loc: UK; Posts: 75, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 20, 2006; Reply to: Bacchus

Re: 997 GT3RS mk1 - Over rev ranges

Not sure about the 997.1 GT3 and GT3RS but on the 997.2 GT3/RS Rev Range 1 is, I believe, 9000 rpm (500rpm over rev limit) so that is a pretty serious over-rev.

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Mar 8, 2014 7:05:49 PM

Bacchus: Junior; Loc: . , Switzerland; Posts: 98, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 2, 2014; Reply to: Ian C

Re: 997 GT3RS mk1 - Over rev ranges

Think it is same for mk1 and mk2 - see table below.

After looking up the issue extensively online I have found that:

A lot of them have stage 1 and 2
Up until 3 Porsche will maintain warranty and allow to extend it - as from 4 only after a thorough check-up
1 ignitions equals about 0.002sec

Following reason could be why stage 1 occurs quite often:

Stage 1's are actually a more-than-passing probability.

One doesn't need a moneyshift to log Stage 1's. It happens in hurried upshifts. As one transitions between WOT and clutch down, letting out the clutch too early will "unload" the engine and allow it to spin ever-so-slightly above the rev limiter. Nothing serious as we all know, but that's how the occasional Range 1 shows up even for cars properly driven.

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M3 CSL / Alpina D3 Bi-Turbo Touring / RS2 Avant / GT3RS Kermit (coming up)

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Mar 8, 2014 7:21:23 PM

Bacchus: Junior; Loc: . , Switzerland; Posts: 98, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 2, 2014; Reply to: Bacchus

Re: 997 GT3RS mk1 - Over rev ranges

Found this on another forum...meaning that stage 1 occurs as from 8401 rpm

Rev ranges - 997 GT3:
Create the VAL before deleting the fault memory. Overspeed events are documented as follows in the VAL:
Rev range 1: 8,400 -1 ... to 9,200 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 2: 9,200 -1 ... to 9,400 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 3: 9,400 -1 ... to 9,600 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 4: 9,600 -1 ... to 10,000 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed clearly exceeded; engine damage probable.
Rev range 5: 10,000 -1 ... to 11,000 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed very clearly exceeded; engine damage very probable.
Rev range 6: over 11,000 -1
⇒ Engine damage has generally occurred.
Information

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M3 CSL / Alpina D3 Bi-Turbo Touring / RS2 Avant / GT3RS Kermit (coming up)

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Mar 8, 2014 7:31:19 PM

Bacchus: Junior; Loc: . , Switzerland; Posts: 98, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 2, 2014; Reply to: Bacchus

Re: 997 GT3RS mk1 - Over rev ranges

And a bit more explanation why 1 & 2 are prone to occur

It is very possible to cause a range 1-3 over-rev situation without ever having done anything wrong. When you run WOT (wide open throttle) up to the rev limiter and the ECU cuts you off, then you dump the clutch to pick the next gear, there's so much intertia within the engine that the revs continue to climb. That's why you'll see just about every used Porsche that people are looking at come back with Range 1-3 over-revs, but often for very short periods. For example, you might see just 30 "ignitions" at Range 3, meaning just 10 Revolutions. That's not caused by somebody missing a shift because a 5-2 money shift is going to record much more.

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M3 CSL / Alpina D3 Bi-Turbo Touring / RS2 Avant / GT3RS Kermit (coming up)

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Mar 20, 2014 3:23:15 PM

Bacchus: Junior; Loc: . , Switzerland; Posts: 98, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 2, 2014; Reply to: Bacchus

Re: 997 GT3RS mk1 - Over rev ranges

Small addendum, the last quoted figures indeed seem to be correct.

Just received message from friend who's a technician in a Porsche garage.

Here are the ranges for 997 GT3:

Range 1 : 8400-9200

Range 2 : 9200-9400

Range 3 : 9400-9600

Range 4 : 9600-10.000

Range 5 : 10.000-11.000

Range 6 : >11.000

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M3 CSL / Alpina D3 Bi-Turbo Touring / RS2 Avant / GT3RS Kermit

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997 GT3RS mk1 - Over rev ranges

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