Crown

Just as an aside talking about parts suppliers and responsibility, the boat and yacht industry is very different from automobiles. Basically the boat builder assembles a hull with various subsystems many, if not all, come from outside vendors. The installation of all subsystems is done by the builder, but the warranty is through the OEM of the subsystem.  So on a multimillion dollar yacht if there is a problem w/ the engines you deal with MAN, MTU, or CAT not the builder of your yacht. It's not infrequent that the owner gets caught between the yacht builder and the engine manufacturer over whether the engine is bad or the installation was improper.  What is customary and expected in one area of business maybe totally alien in another. 

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

When Porsche wins races they seldom attribute success to the supplier of any parts.  On the other hand - when something breaks or fails the suppliers take the heat.  Human nature can be found in large companies as well.

I was at the local dealer this weekend for a breakfast promotion.  They had a new GT3 on the showroom floor - SOLD.  I did not have the heart to ask the woefully un-informed sales staff about the recall because I knew they would be in the dark.  This dealer is still running full page ads in local magazines with pictures of the 997.2 to promote the 'NEW' 991.  As you recall this is the dealer that can't spell Porsche on their local webpage and they routinely advertise their 911 as having a V6 and child safety locks (only on rear doors!).  I hope that dealers in Germany and elsewhere are not so challenged by the product they sell.

GR:

Porsche and Lotus are my favourites so:

987 and 997 -20mm Coupe are OK, 996/997 GT3, 996 Coupe/986, 993, 964 etc all good to a greater or lesser extent

All modern era Lotus (the Evora power steering is excellent and the unassisted cars are a delight)

I've also experienced a couple of Ferraris, F355 and F360.  The former was marginal for engagement on the road (better on track) but the latter did not engage me from a driving point of view. 

For non sports cars the previous Clio RS was impressive and I rated the Mk1 Mini (I had a 2002 model)

I tend to agree.  In terms of steering feel my 996 GT3 was alive.  As are the Exige and Elise (haven't driven the Evora).  My current 964 Turbo is exceptional.  In my 997S and 997 GT3, the steering was more filtered, but still let a lot of information through.  You only come to appreciate this after seat time in the 997 chassis.

I've not driven the 355.  But my 360 had incredibly precise steering but was numb.  Very little road feel IMO (at least relative to Porsche).

The 991 took the 997 steering refinement one step further.  Many argue one step too far.  The key for the GT3 is it enough like a 997 to satisfy those coming out of these cars?  Maybe, maybe not.  But as an overall package, current owners and professional reviewers all seem to agree that on the whole it's a brilliant car even with less steering feel of a 997 GT3.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

frayed:

I've not driven the 355.  But my 360 had incredibly precise steering but was numb.  Very little road feel IMO (at least relative to Porsche).

Yeah, Ferrari has never really built a car with power steering that has good feel.  Their Manual steering cars (F348 and older) have great feel though...

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Gotcha.  When I bought my car, I really expected more.  Red, great sounds, gorgeous lines, rare, gated 6 speed shifter. . . eventually all that wears off and you are just left with how it drives and steering feel was a huge demerit.  I also thought the rear end never really telegraphed WTF was going on, unlike porsches.  Found myself *surprised* more than a few times. Over bumpy transitions that my porsches just powered through with great grip.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

One of the most "involving" cars I've driven was a AC Cobra - original - no electronic gimmicks , no ABS , unbelievable steering (due to lack of power-assist) - but made me grinn the whole time I was allowed to drive it. Slightly odd seating position with the pedals not being straight in front of you - but to me the most raw car ever ! Simply fantastic !

reginos:

TB993tt:

I have been told by someone who knows a lot about conrods that the 991 GT3 conrods are not strong enough for their rated output and revs (yes he/she has had a good look at them)

It sounds to me like Porsche are succuming to VW group pressure on price/spec of parts and the old way of Porsche engineering has been changed.....  

There were plenty of issues long before VW. From chain tensioners to cracking cylinder studs on the air cooled SC and Carrera, serious cylinder head leakages on the 964 etc. Moreover, the notorious RMS and IMS problems afflicted engines engineered before the VW takeover.

Porsche 911s were never 100% reliable contrary to popular belief. Just in the old days very few people owned such cars and news relating to problems didn't interest the many. And there was no internet, too!

--

"Form follows function"

Reginos, I entirely agree but relatively speaking they were more reliable than their direct competitors of that time - and by a big degree (Compare 1972  911 2.4S to Dino 246 GTS,not to mention the English production of that time). Today we expect bullet proof reliability from Porsche (at least) for the sport cars.  The IMS was a dark page for sure, though no one really knows how many engines were affected on the 169,000 996 units produced  (for the record I drove 80 K km with my 996 totally trouble free).

I drove 100.000km over 9 years with my 986S without either RMS or IMS and the car is still going strong after several subsequent owners.

OTOH I know personally, in our very small market of at least two 996 "40 years", two 996.2 Carrera 4S and one early 997S that suffered togal engine failures. 

Those engines were/are like Russian Roulette. They were devised during the period of cost cutting and engineering by accountants and marketing people. Just when we started feeling confident, this GT3 situation happens. I just hope it is not due to something fundamental.

"Form follows function"

As an enthusiastic Porsche salesperson , for a long time; what concerns me now , is the lack of a definitive response to the situation, with a workable solution. Its been what, almost 3 weeks since the news broke ? I am truly hoping it is just a faulty fitting at the heat exchanger.That would be an easy fix for everyone !

Revvv     

Revvv:

As an enthusiastic Porsche salesperson , for a long time; what concerns me now , is the lack of a definitive response to the situation, with a workable solution. Its been what, almost 3 weeks since the news broke ? I am truly hoping it is just a faulty fitting at the heat exchanger.That would be an easy fix for everyone !

Revvv     

 Can't be that simple if conrods have been penetrating the crankcase.

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Is that a fact ? You have evidnce of that?

Revvv

Revvv:

Is that a fact ? You have evidnce of that?

Revvv

 

No, I don't have solid evidence - but lots of anecdotal evidence and the letter from Porsche to owners that specifically mentions damage to the crankcase that led to the fires.  If you have heard something different as a dealer, I would be anxious to hear it.

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

I apprceiate that, and I am with you . I have read the Official Documents, and it doesnt mention crankcase. If there is a problem with low oil pressure from an external heat exchanger that has a faulty pressure coupling, then the result would be " Engine Damage " , and then the resulting oil fire, due to its proximity to the Cat........ it all makes sense to me.The fact is......it is only speculation, at this point. Lets wait untill the best automtive engineers in the world, in my opinion, state their findings, and ultimate solution.

Revvv      

Are there official documents? As far as I am aware these are the only words Porsche has put out in the public domain. Please correct me if I am wrong. 

RS60 Spyder, 991 GT3 RS pending :)

That is the only official press release thus far.We are all waiting for the next document..........

Revvv  

Revvv:

I apprceiate that, and I am with you . I have read the Official Documents, and it doesnt mention crankcase. If there is a problem with low oil pressure from an external heat exchanger that has a faulty pressure coupling, then the result would be " Engine Damage " , and then the resulting oil fire, due to its proximity to the Cat........ it all makes sense to me.The fact is......it is only speculation, at this point. Lets wait untill the best automtive engineers in the world, in my opinion, state their findings, and ultimate solution.

Revvv      

To my knowledge official documents have not mentioned faulty pressure couplings or heat exchange. In a reported story from a large German newspaper listed in this thread they quote Porsche spokesperson as mention conrod pistons damaging the crank case.

I would love to see that Official document from Porsche..........I will have the German translated, for sure. There is No mention of crankcase, conrod, piston,  in any public document in the US..........Let's all hope for the Best !  We are Porsche fans....

Revvv  

We are as fortunate to have Porsche cars, as , Porsche is to have the customers like us whom appreciate and drive there product because without us there wouldn't be a Porsche Car

Deacon driving 2010 997.2 Targa4S

A decision and communication towards dealers and owners is expected within the next two weeks. There a two things. One is, it has been already mentioned here, is the conrod fitting, which was found as an issue regarding the two burned down cars. The other one, which has been found inside of the already produced engines meanwhile, well, that's an issue that has never been seen on the prototypes nor the test cars. Let's say it in that way: It has something to do with the tooling/supply chain. That can happen to every manufacture in the car industry. Porsche is now in a process, to find the best solution for the customers. So please be patient. I'm sure that they will have a solutions for this and that at the end, you'll get/have a great car with a fantastic race engine (you'll see that)

You wrote:  "All smaller sports cars manufacturers are either bust, suffering from financial problems or offer cars at much higher premiums."

Really?

McLaren?  Radical?  Ariel?  BAC?  Caterham?

All of these are producing much smaller volumes than the sports-car volumes of Porsche (ie 911 and Boxster/Cayman) and yet not only do they exist, but they develop and beat the hell out of the Porsches in their respective niches.

I am sorry to write this for I have been a fan of the make for over 20 years, but just imagine you are a real supercar buyer and look into what the production has to offer, then you connect to the "configurator" of Porsche for the 918 and you realize that they no longer know what they are doing. 

Yes, really. Out of the cars you mention only the McLaren comes close to be a competitor and it does cost a lot more, i.e. offered at a higher premium.  The rest are all go-carts, toys and some rich dude's hobby project. 

Lotus on the other hand is a better comparison and we all know their situation in the past 10 years.

"...they develop and beat the hell out of the Porsches in their respective niches", no they don't because Porsche is not in the go-cart niche.

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

reginos:

The normal Carrera S 911, even the 991 version, is a sports car with GT characteristics rather than the other way round.

Disagree.

I have driven all of those (hard) on a track less than a couple of weeks ago and it was a revelation as far as the 991 C2S is concerned.  It has definitely gone the GT way and away from a sports car.  It is too soft: the steering, the brakes, the suspension, the balance, the PDK, and it is not precise enough.  Even in full manual mode, the PDK has this undefeatable “kick down” which is annoying to say the least.  It has a great premium stereo, though – and you can order those deliciously leather-covered vents as an option.  Those looking for something that is more of a sports car made by Porsche ought to check the GT3 instead.

RC:

PBS2010:

Open your eyes.  Can't you see a trend?  Porsche is gradually getting out of the sports car business and the almost-ape-named latest SUV is not going to help otherwise.  They are selling fewer sports cars today than they were 20 years ago.

Yes, I am reminded of this fact every time I drive my 991 Turbo S.   They really don't have a clue building sportscars anymore.  

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

If you believe your 991 Turbo S is a sports car, good for you!

GR:

Reginos,  I can't agree but I concede this is highly subjective.  For me the yardstick is that I want a new sports car and the 991/981 does not qualify IMO because for all its talent it is just not engaging to drive.  

Apias, the GT3 is a road car with some motorsport features and it is very good on track but it is miles away from a race car. 

+1. And no surprise, you are not in Germany!

DaveC:

reginos:

TB993tt:

I have been told by someone who knows a lot about conrods that the 991 GT3 conrods are not strong enough for their rated output and revs (yes he/she has had a good look at them)

It sounds to me like Porsche are succuming to VW group pressure on price/spec of parts and the old way of Porsche engineering has been changed.....  

There were plenty of issues long before VW. From chain tensioners to cracking cylinder studs on the air cooled SC and Carrera, serious cylinder head leakages on the 964 etc. Moreover, the notorious RMS and IMS problems afflicted engines engineered before the VW takeover.

Porsche 911s were never 100% reliable contrary to popular belief. Just in the old days very few people owned such cars and news relating to problems didn't interest the many. And there was no internet, too!

--

"Form follows function"

100%  Perspective is essential. 

--

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

I would hope that fewer than 1 in 100 is screwed up!

Was it a SPASM -20mm car? 

Nevertheless, a sports car is not a track car or a race car. However, the 991 S -20mm was tested on the Kleiner Kurs Hockenheim as fast as the previous GT3 and faster than SLS AMG, Z06, M3GTS and Audi R8. Not bad I suppose in addition to the daily and travel comfort.

I agree that for the more hardcore track drivers the choice would be the GT3 and more so the GT3 RS.

--

"Form follows function"

bluelines:

Yes, really. Out of the cars you mention only the McLaren comes close to be a competitor and it does cost a lot more, i.e. offered at a higher premium.  The rest are all go-carts, toys and some rich dude's hobby project. 

Lotus on the other hand is a better comparison and we all know their situation in the past 10 years.

"...they develop and beat the hell out of the Porsches in their respective niches", no they don't because Porsche is not in the go-cart niche.

++++++++++

You wrote:  “Out of the cars you mention only the McLaren comes close to be a competitor”.  At the moment, Porsche has no product which comes near the simplest McLaren, and when they try to have a go at it … look at the 918 vs P1 and you laugh (or cry), probably depending on the country where your allegiance lies.

What it is to admire with McLaren (and the others I mentioned above BTW) is that they genuinely try and produce great sports cars and fun cars while our beloved Porsche is genuinely getting way from this business based on their recent evolution.

You also wrote:  “The rest are all go-carts, toys and some rich dude's hobby project”: what do you think one would look like in their brand new GT3, GT3 RS of even worse GT3 cup cars on a circuit when overtaken by someone who actually knows how to drive vs has thrown money at the problem?  Some of the cars I mentioned pass FIA crash tests that a GT3 would probably only dream of getting through.

I am sometimes with GT3 cup cars at track events. For some, the size of their bellies, matching that of their wallet, makes me wonder now that you mentioned “rich dude's hobby project”.

I am not here to convince one who is stubborn and partial, but to help readers be more critical thinkers and sort the marketing crap (the car vs what you need from it) to determine what they really need personally and are expecting to get from the car.

I think we can all sit here all day arguing about what is a sports car and never come to an agreement. Different people have different definition of sports car. For me, sports car is not just about speed, or I would be calling a M3 a sports car too. For me, a sports car needs to have a level of rawness to it, be it the engine, chassis, gearbox or steering. And even then different people have different definition on what constitute raw. For someone who drives a C250 like my father for example, would think a Carrera engine is raw. For someone who owns a Caterham 7, a carrera engine is like a luxury car. For me personally, the 991 S or Turbo S is not a sports car by that definition. Having said that, I don't think of them as GT either. GTs are cars like M6 - big and heavy cars that car comfortable and fast. I now have a new category in my mind, luxury sports car if you need a name for it, for cars like Carrera S or even turbo S. Fast, light (relatively speaking), great handling cars, that doesn't have the rawness of cars like GT3. I think most of the high end performance cars now fall into my definition of luxury sports car due to market demand. They make much more sense as they can be used as dd whereas it's much harder to use a GT3 as a dd. 

My defintion is that a sports car is one you drive for the pleasure of driving not necessarily for arriving somewhere. A car you feel like going for a drive without real need or purpose.

Within this defintion we can include everything from the Ariel to Lotus and from Mazda MX5 to Carrera S and from GT3 to Lamborghini or Ferrari or McLaren.

The level of civility, power output, lap times do not come into the equation IMO. There is scale however, ranging from just about road legal cars to well appointed daily drivers from which enthusiasts could choose their own. The common denominator is the fun of driving.

Sports car = You drive for the sport of it, not necessarily as a competitive sport.

"Form follows function"

PBS you are on quite a soap box.  Let me get this straight.  Cup car owners are rich and fat.  Radical, Ariel, BAC, Caterhams are sports cars.  Do I have that right?

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff